SuperSaiyan2

Mar 10 2014, 11:15 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 10 2014, 11:12 PM

SuperSaiyan2

Mar 10 2014, 10:53 PM

I have Vegetable at 2.5 million, so yeah..

It's a matter of preference, and where he falls on your list. He must be stronger than 3rd form Freeza and weaker than initial 4th form Freeza. The rest is up to you.

He could be above initial 4th Form Freeza and still be made a fool because of Freeza's speed.

Exactly, I wasn't considering this. If you check the manga, Freeza looks surprised/scared when Vegeta fired his full power blast at him. He did kick it back, but it was powerful enough to worry Freeza. I don't think Vegeta was too far away in terms of power, he just got tooled when Freeza turned on the jets.

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Where are you getting Freeza or Goku's power level from though? Goku was using Kaioken undetected, so he could have already been using Kaioken x10 against Freeza. There is no conclusion that can be made, as Goku never declared when he began to use Kaioken. So really, comparing their powers doesn't do much good.

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Edit: The invisible Kaioken was exactly what it sounds like. In the manga, you cannot see the Kaioken aura when Goku was using it against Freeza. In fact, the people on Kaio's planet had no clue that he was even using it.

SuperSaiyan2

Mar 10 2014, 11:36 PM

I'll give my best explanation as to why Vegeta should be a fair amount over 2 million.

Second form Freeza appears, boasting an impressive power level of 1 million. This is backed up by the Z fighters reaction to the transformation, and his speed feats. He then proceeds to power up, and it didn't appear to be a small power up by any sorts. It was enough to garner reactions from multiple people, all stating that his ki was going way up. What's more? Freeza powered up yet again. Again, the Z fighters were very fearful, and he seemed to be confident that he could beat Piccolo. Since he and Piccolo never fought while both were fully powered up, we will never know. We just know that Freeza made two significant power ups.

Now, Piccolo still seemed to be confident in winning as well, so I'd say it's safe to assume that he and Freeza were in the same range of power. Freeza then transformed (for insurance?) and gained a large amount of power yet again. Piccolo admitted that Freeza definitely was more powerful than himself, and by a good margin at that. He did think that he would be faster than Freeza though, which we saw wasn't the case. Freeza was able to overwhelm Piccolo and defeat him extremely easily. He was much, much stronger. He decided to transform yet again into his fourth form. Some of the naive fighters thought that Freeza wouldn't be as much of a challenge because of how much smaller he became. Piccolo was able to tell otherwise immediately though. He knew that this new Freeza was on a whole different level than the previous form even with his initial power.

Now comes Vegeta. He had pretty good sensing abilities by the time of the Freeza battle, and I would trust any strength reading that he could produce. After witnessing Piccolo get absolutely thrashed by third form Freeza, and sensing the all new Freeza who was on a different level entirely, Vegeta was still confident in victory. And yes, I understand that confidence is not everything, and that Vegeta has a history of being arrogant. However, he wasn't totally outclassed until Freeza raised his speed. Vegeta's blast visibly shocked Freeza, and made him use a lot of effort to redirect it. Freeza could have used more power to deflect it! we don't really know. We do know that he looked scared by it though.

Basically putting all of this into one point: With all of the power ups of Freeza, confidence from Vegeta, and Freeza's reaction to Vegeta, I think he should be well above the likes of third form Freeza.

Edit: The invisible Kaioken was exactly what it sounds like. In the manga, you cannot see the Kaioken aura when Goku was using it against Freeza. In fact, the people on Kaio's planet had no clue that he was even using it.

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 11 2014, 12:01 AM

SuperSaiyan2

Mar 10 2014, 11:36 PM

I'll give my best explanation as to why Vegeta should be a fair amount over 2 million.

Second form Freeza appears, boasting an impressive power level of 1 million. This is backed up by the Z fighters reaction to the transformation, and his speed feats. He then proceeds to power up, and it didn't appear to be a small power up by any sorts. It was enough to garner reactions from multiple people, all stating that his ki was going way up. What's more? Freeza powered up yet again. Again, the Z fighters were very fearful, and he seemed to be confident that he could beat Piccolo. Since he and Piccolo never fought while both were fully powered up, we will never know. We just know that Freeza made two significant power ups.

Now, Piccolo still seemed to be confident in winning as well, so I'd say it's safe to assume that he and Freeza were in the same range of power. Freeza then transformed (for insurance?) and gained a large amount of power yet again. Piccolo admitted that Freeza definitely was more powerful than himself, and by a good margin at that. He did think that he would be faster than Freeza though, which we saw wasn't the case. Freeza was able to overwhelm Piccolo and defeat him extremely easily. He was much, much stronger. He decided to transform yet again into his fourth form. Some of the naive fighters thought that Freeza wouldn't be as much of a challenge because of how much smaller he became. Piccolo was able to tell otherwise immediately though. He knew that this new Freeza was on a whole different level than the previous form even with his initial power.

Now comes Vegeta. He had pretty good sensing abilities by the time of the Freeza battle, and I would trust any strength reading that he could produce. After witnessing Piccolo get absolutely thrashed by third form Freeza, and sensing the all new Freeza who was on a different level entirely, Vegeta was still confident in victory. And yes, I understand that confidence is not everything, and that Vegeta has a history of being arrogant. However, he wasn't totally outclassed until Freeza raised his speed. Vegeta's blast visibly shocked Freeza, and made him use a lot of effort to redirect it. Freeza could have used more power to deflect it! we don't really know. We do know that he looked scared by it though.

Basically putting all of this into one point: With all of the power ups of Freeza, confidence from Vegeta, and Freeza's reaction to Vegeta, I think he should be well above the likes of third form Freeza.

Edit: The invisible Kaioken was exactly what it sounds like. In the manga, you cannot see the Kaioken aura when Goku was using it against Freeza. In fact, the people on Kaio's planet had no clue that he was even using it.

But his power has to be another factor if all Frieza had to do was give it a simple kick. At best, I can see SSJ Vegeta giving Frieza a hard time but then starts to get wrecked as the fight goes on.

Just what exactly is this invisible Kaioken thing? Are you talking about the Goku's Base being at 300,000 thing? Only people who believe that Goku was @300,000 believe that theory.

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I'm saying the Kaioken was going undetected, so we don't know when he began using it. Any guess is conjecture. Goku's base is 3 million, yes. But we don't know what initial Freeza was really putting out. Piccolo thought he was a monster as soon as he sensed him.

All im saying is that it's conjecture to speculate what Freeza's level against Goku and Vegeta was.

DSTREET45

Mar 11 2014, 12:11 AM

Which in turn makes KK x 20 Goku 6 mill with 50% Frieza being at 60 mil which makes no sense.

Kaboom

Mar 11 2014, 02:36 AM

I likewise consider Vegeta somewhere between 2 and 2.5 million in power level, so as a Super Saiyan he'd be practically equal with or only very slightly behind Freeza's 120 million. In which case I do think he could win the fight, especially if he takes advantage of Freeza's 100% power drain.

SuperSaiyan2

Mar 11 2014, 03:35 AM

How was the 10x Kaioken not invisible? I invite you to show me a manga panel where you can see a Kaioken aura, before Goku uses Kaioken x20.

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 11 2014, 03:59 AM

SuperSaiyan2

Mar 11 2014, 03:35 AM

How was the 10x Kaioken not invisible? I invite you to show me a manga panel where you can see a Kaioken aura, before Goku uses Kaioken x20.

When he uses it to toss Freeza by the tail?

SuperSaiyan2

Mar 11 2014, 04:08 AM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 11 2014, 03:59 AM

SuperSaiyan2

Mar 11 2014, 03:35 AM

How was the 10x Kaioken not invisible? I invite you to show me a manga panel where you can see a Kaioken aura, before Goku uses Kaioken x20.

When he uses it to toss Freeza by the tail?

Just reread the fight, and I saw a Kaioken aura twice. Kaio says he has been using it in plural. That doesn't make sense if Goku only used it once, no?