Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 08:56 PM

Wait, wait, so Goku can beat Yi on his own, and doesn't have to suppress to fuse with Vegeta, but Vegeta is weaker than Si, who's much weaker than Yi? What the hell happened?

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 10:21 PM

I'm talking of Goku much later into the battle, after Gogeta had beaten the Dragonballs out of Yi Xing Long. He stated he could beat Yi on his own at that point.

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 01:03 AM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 10:21 PM

I'm talking of Goku much later into the battle, after Gogeta had beaten the Dragonballs out of Yi Xing Long. He stated he could beat Yi on his own at that point.

When exactly was that stated?

Anyways, i'm always in the mindset that if a statement is contracted by an event in the show, it holds no weight. Clearly, Vegeta couldn't beat Nuova so that makes no sense.

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 07:24 AM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 01:03 AM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 10:21 PM

I'm talking of Goku much later into the battle, after Gogeta had beaten the Dragonballs out of Yi Xing Long. He stated he could beat Yi on his own at that point.

When exactly was that stated?

Anyways, i'm always in the mindset that if a statement is contracted by an event in the show, it holds no weight. Clearly, Vegeta couldn't beat Nuova so that makes no sense.

Episode 60
Time: 21m35s
Context: Yi Xing Long threatens to attack Goku and Vegeta
Vegeta: "You know how we feel? You're a fine one to talk! You're the one who's all worn out!"
Goku: "And I can beat you now all on my own!"
Note: In the English dub, Vegeta instead says Yi is hardly worth his time.

There was nothing contradicted about this, and it's heavily implied by Yi hastily absorbing the Dragon Balls again.

Hell, you know what's odd? SSjin 4 Vegeta did better against semi-powered up Yi Xing Long (with just 6 DBs) than SSjin 4 Goku did. At one point in Episode 61, around the 7:50 mark, he and Yi got into a close quarters sparring match and Vegeta managed to get the upper hand, kicking him into a building. It did no lasting damage, but either way. On Goku's end, he dodged a sequence of punches from Yi, but couldn't fight back. The one thing he did accomplish - his surprise headbutt - barely moved Yi's head, though it was stated to hurt "a little." Other than those events, they were both owned just as badly as the other.

As for the fight with Si Xing Long, Vegeta and Goku both lost to him, the only difference being Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy when he fought Vegeta. And as I pointed out in a previously linked post, Si's speed was highlighted as his advantage, not really his power. Goku warned Vegeta about it after Si's initial onslaught, and it was clearly shown to be the determining factor immediately after, what with Vegeta being matched escape for escape.

*~*~*~*

For your movie levels, I didn't look too in-depth, but the only thing that jumped out to me was SSjin Gohan being barely ahead of Base Goku in Movie 8. Explanation is much wanted.

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 02:56 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 07:24 AM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 01:03 AM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 10:21 PM

I'm talking of Goku much later into the battle, after Gogeta had beaten the Dragonballs out of Yi Xing Long. He stated he could beat Yi on his own at that point.

When exactly was that stated?

Anyways, i'm always in the mindset that if a statement is contracted by an event in the show, it holds no weight. Clearly, Vegeta couldn't beat Nuova so that makes no sense.

Episode 60
Time: 21m35s
Context: Yi Xing Long threatens to attack Goku and Vegeta
Vegeta: "You know how we feel? You're a fine one to talk! You're the one who's all worn out!"
Goku: "And I can beat you now all on my own!"
Note: In the English dub, Vegeta instead says Yi is hardly worth his time.

There was nothing contradicted about this, and it's heavily implied by Yi hastily absorbing the Dragon Balls again.

Hell, you know what's odd? SSjin 4 Vegeta did better against semi-powered up Yi Xing Long (with just 6 DBs) than SSjin 4 Goku did. At one point in Episode 61, around the 7:50 mark, he and Yi got into a close quarters sparring match and Vegeta managed to get the upper hand, kicking him into a building. It did no lasting damage, but either way. On Goku's end, he dodged a sequence of punches from Yi, but couldn't fight back. The one thing he did accomplish - his surprise headbutt - barely moved Yi's head, though it was stated to hurt "a little." Other than those events, they were both owned just as badly as the other.

As for the fight with Si Xing Long, Vegeta and Goku both lost to him, the only difference being Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy when he fought Vegeta. And as I pointed out in a previously linked post, Si's speed was highlighted as his advantage, not really his power. Goku warned Vegeta about it after Si's initial onslaught, and it was clearly shown to be the determining factor immediately after, what with Vegeta being matched escape for escape.

*~*~*~*

For your movie levels, I didn't look too in-depth, but the only thing that jumped out to me was SSjin Gohan being barely ahead of Base Goku in Movie 8. Explanation is much wanted.

If Vegeta was overwhelmed by Nuova's speed, then theirs no way he's going to win that fight, plain and simple. Honestly, I only can see SS4 Vegeta being at Pre-Limits Goku at best and I would still argue against the former.

That's a clear contraction right there. Even in the fight you mentioned, Vegeta didn't do much to Syn.

Not to mention that Syn was worn out as well meaning he lost his own fair share of power as well.

Just how exactly was Nuova powered up by Syn?

And as for M8, Gohan was the weakest in the group (weaker than Piccolo even) so him being at that level isn't farfetched.

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 03:17 PM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 02:56 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 07:24 AM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 01:03 AM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 10:21 PM

I'm talking of Goku much later into the battle, after Gogeta had beaten the Dragonballs out of Yi Xing Long. He stated he could beat Yi on his own at that point.

When exactly was that stated?

Anyways, i'm always in the mindset that if a statement is contracted by an event in the show, it holds no weight. Clearly, Vegeta couldn't beat Nuova so that makes no sense.

Episode 60
Time: 21m35s
Context: Yi Xing Long threatens to attack Goku and Vegeta
Vegeta: "You know how we feel? You're a fine one to talk! You're the one who's all worn out!"
Goku: "And I can beat you now all on my own!"
Note: In the English dub, Vegeta instead says Yi is hardly worth his time.

There was nothing contradicted about this, and it's heavily implied by Yi hastily absorbing the Dragon Balls again.

Hell, you know what's odd? SSjin 4 Vegeta did better against semi-powered up Yi Xing Long (with just 6 DBs) than SSjin 4 Goku did. At one point in Episode 61, around the 7:50 mark, he and Yi got into a close quarters sparring match and Vegeta managed to get the upper hand, kicking him into a building. It did no lasting damage, but either way. On Goku's end, he dodged a sequence of punches from Yi, but couldn't fight back. The one thing he did accomplish - his surprise headbutt - barely moved Yi's head, though it was stated to hurt "a little." Other than those events, they were both owned just as badly as the other.

As for the fight with Si Xing Long, Vegeta and Goku both lost to him, the only difference being Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy when he fought Vegeta. And as I pointed out in a previously linked post, Si's speed was highlighted as his advantage, not really his power. Goku warned Vegeta about it after Si's initial onslaught, and it was clearly shown to be the determining factor immediately after, what with Vegeta being matched escape for escape.

*~*~*~*

For your movie levels, I didn't look too in-depth, but the only thing that jumped out to me was SSjin Gohan being barely ahead of Base Goku in Movie 8. Explanation is much wanted.

If Vegeta was overwhelmed by Nuova's speed, then theirs no way he's going to win that fight, plain and simple. Honestly, I only can see SS4 Vegeta being at Pre-Limits Goku at best and I would still argue against the former.

That's a clear contraction right there. Even in the fight you mentioned, Vegeta didn't do much to Syn.

Not to mention that Syn was worn out as well meaning he lost his own fair share of power as well.

Just how exactly was Nuova powered up by Syn?

And as for M8, Gohan was the weakest in the group (weaker than Piccolo even) so him being at that level isn't farfetched.

Yi's minus energy, boy!

What we know from statements:

- Yi wasn't as powerful because he'd lost a DB and/or from the fight with Gogeta, but because of his hax regen I just attribute it to the former.
- Goku felt confident in beating Yi at that point.
- Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy.

What we saw in the fights:

- Goku and Vegeta both were outmatched by Si in general.
- Goku and Vegeta were both owned just as badly against 6-Star Yi Xing Long.
- Vegeta landed a straight-forward hit on Yi, Goku landed a surprise attack. Neither did much damage.


I can see a simple solution in that. Can you?

Quote:

 

- Goku felt confident in beating Yi at that point.

Quote:

 

- Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy.

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 03:28 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 03:17 PM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 02:56 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 07:24 AM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 01:03 AM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 10:21 PM

I'm talking of Goku much later into the battle, after Gogeta had beaten the Dragonballs out of Yi Xing Long. He stated he could beat Yi on his own at that point.

When exactly was that stated?

Anyways, i'm always in the mindset that if a statement is contracted by an event in the show, it holds no weight. Clearly, Vegeta couldn't beat Nuova so that makes no sense.

Episode 60
Time: 21m35s
Context: Yi Xing Long threatens to attack Goku and Vegeta
Vegeta: "You know how we feel? You're a fine one to talk! You're the one who's all worn out!"
Goku: "And I can beat you now all on my own!"
Note: In the English dub, Vegeta instead says Yi is hardly worth his time.

There was nothing contradicted about this, and it's heavily implied by Yi hastily absorbing the Dragon Balls again.

Hell, you know what's odd? SSjin 4 Vegeta did better against semi-powered up Yi Xing Long (with just 6 DBs) than SSjin 4 Goku did. At one point in Episode 61, around the 7:50 mark, he and Yi got into a close quarters sparring match and Vegeta managed to get the upper hand, kicking him into a building. It did no lasting damage, but either way. On Goku's end, he dodged a sequence of punches from Yi, but couldn't fight back. The one thing he did accomplish - his surprise headbutt - barely moved Yi's head, though it was stated to hurt "a little." Other than those events, they were both owned just as badly as the other.

As for the fight with Si Xing Long, Vegeta and Goku both lost to him, the only difference being Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy when he fought Vegeta. And as I pointed out in a previously linked post, Si's speed was highlighted as his advantage, not really his power. Goku warned Vegeta about it after Si's initial onslaught, and it was clearly shown to be the determining factor immediately after, what with Vegeta being matched escape for escape.

*~*~*~*

For your movie levels, I didn't look too in-depth, but the only thing that jumped out to me was SSjin Gohan being barely ahead of Base Goku in Movie 8. Explanation is much wanted.

If Vegeta was overwhelmed by Nuova's speed, then theirs no way he's going to win that fight, plain and simple. Honestly, I only can see SS4 Vegeta being at Pre-Limits Goku at best and I would still argue against the former.

That's a clear contraction right there. Even in the fight you mentioned, Vegeta didn't do much to Syn.

Not to mention that Syn was worn out as well meaning he lost his own fair share of power as well.

Just how exactly was Nuova powered up by Syn?

And as for M8, Gohan was the weakest in the group (weaker than Piccolo even) so him being at that level isn't farfetched.

Yi's minus energy, boy!

What we know from statements:

- Yi wasn't as powerful because he'd lost a DB and/or from the fight with Gogeta, but because of his hax regen I just attribute it to the former.
- Goku felt confident in beating Yi at that point.
- Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy.

What we saw in the fights:

- Goku and Vegeta both were outmatched by Si in general.
- Goku and Vegeta were both owned just as badly against 6-Star Yi Xing Long.
- Vegeta landed a straight-forward hit on Yi, Goku landed a surprise attack. Neither did much damage.


I can see a simple solution in that. Can you?

And here's the part were you contradict yourself with your own statement.

Quote:

 

- Goku felt confident in beating Yi at that point.

Quote:

 

- Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy.

So apparently Goku can beat Yi on his own (you also claim that Vegeta is on par with Goku) but Vegeta can't beat Nuova who's powered up by a guy that's supposedly weaker than Vegeta himself. So with that all taken into account...

Nuova > SSJ4 Vegeta > Syn

Wat?

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 03:46 PM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 03:28 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 03:17 PM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 02:56 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 07:24 AM

Yusuke Urameshi

Mar 7 2014, 01:03 AM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 6 2014, 10:21 PM

I'm talking of Goku much later into the battle, after Gogeta had beaten the Dragonballs out of Yi Xing Long. He stated he could beat Yi on his own at that point.

When exactly was that stated?

Anyways, i'm always in the mindset that if a statement is contracted by an event in the show, it holds no weight. Clearly, Vegeta couldn't beat Nuova so that makes no sense.

Episode 60
Time: 21m35s
Context: Yi Xing Long threatens to attack Goku and Vegeta
Vegeta: "You know how we feel? You're a fine one to talk! You're the one who's all worn out!"
Goku: "And I can beat you now all on my own!"
Note: In the English dub, Vegeta instead says Yi is hardly worth his time.

There was nothing contradicted about this, and it's heavily implied by Yi hastily absorbing the Dragon Balls again.

Hell, you know what's odd? SSjin 4 Vegeta did better against semi-powered up Yi Xing Long (with just 6 DBs) than SSjin 4 Goku did. At one point in Episode 61, around the 7:50 mark, he and Yi got into a close quarters sparring match and Vegeta managed to get the upper hand, kicking him into a building. It did no lasting damage, but either way. On Goku's end, he dodged a sequence of punches from Yi, but couldn't fight back. The one thing he did accomplish - his surprise headbutt - barely moved Yi's head, though it was stated to hurt "a little." Other than those events, they were both owned just as badly as the other.

As for the fight with Si Xing Long, Vegeta and Goku both lost to him, the only difference being Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy when he fought Vegeta. And as I pointed out in a previously linked post, Si's speed was highlighted as his advantage, not really his power. Goku warned Vegeta about it after Si's initial onslaught, and it was clearly shown to be the determining factor immediately after, what with Vegeta being matched escape for escape.

*~*~*~*

For your movie levels, I didn't look too in-depth, but the only thing that jumped out to me was SSjin Gohan being barely ahead of Base Goku in Movie 8. Explanation is much wanted.

If Vegeta was overwhelmed by Nuova's speed, then theirs no way he's going to win that fight, plain and simple. Honestly, I only can see SS4 Vegeta being at Pre-Limits Goku at best and I would still argue against the former.

That's a clear contraction right there. Even in the fight you mentioned, Vegeta didn't do much to Syn.

Not to mention that Syn was worn out as well meaning he lost his own fair share of power as well.

Just how exactly was Nuova powered up by Syn?

And as for M8, Gohan was the weakest in the group (weaker than Piccolo even) so him being at that level isn't farfetched.

Yi's minus energy, boy!

What we know from statements:

- Yi wasn't as powerful because he'd lost a DB and/or from the fight with Gogeta, but because of his hax regen I just attribute it to the former.
- Goku felt confident in beating Yi at that point.
- Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy.

What we saw in the fights:

- Goku and Vegeta both were outmatched by Si in general.
- Goku and Vegeta were both owned just as badly against 6-Star Yi Xing Long.
- Vegeta landed a straight-forward hit on Yi, Goku landed a surprise attack. Neither did much damage.


I can see a simple solution in that. Can you?

And here's the part were you contradict yourself with your own statement.

Quote:

 

- Goku felt confident in beating Yi at that point.

Quote:

 

- Si was powered up by Yi's minus energy.

So apparently Goku can beat Yi on his own (you also claim that Vegeta is on par with Goku) but Vegeta can't beat Nuova who's powered up by a guy that's supposedly weaker than Vegeta himself. So with that all taken into account...

Nuova > SSJ4 Vegeta > Syn

Wat?

Why not? It's not like Yi was in a position to be overthrown by Si.

And sorry, I was probably providing a little confusion here. I just went and rewatched some of the episode, and I didn't mean Goku/Vegeta > 6-Star Yi. I just meant regular Yi. Don't know if that was ever a problem but nonetheless. The chain I'm seeing is perfectly reasonable:

Yi Xing Long (6 DBs) >>> Si Xing Long (w/minus energy) > SSjin 4 Goku/Vegeta (post-Fusion) > Yi Xing Long (post-Gogeta beating)

Normal Goku and Vegeta as Super Saiyan 4s and normal Si Xing Long could fit in somewhere near the end of the chain.

And it was already shown to us that even if someone had the power advantage against Si, they wouldn't be able to win because he was so damn fast. Speed over power has always sort of been a running theme since Z, at least. On that point, you could have:

Yi Xing Long (6 DBs) >>> SSjin 4 Goku/Vegeta (post-Fusion) >~ Si Xing Long (w/minus energy) > Yi Xing Long (post-Gogeta beating)

and it'd still be valid because they'd both still lose to Si because of his enormous speed advantage.

Quote:

 

Yi Xing Long (6 DBs) > Si Xing Long (w/minus energy) > SSjin 4 Goku/Vegeta (post-Fusion) > Yi Xing Long (post-Gogeta beating)

Quote:

 

And it was already shown to us that even if someone had the power advantage against Si, they wouldn't be able to win because he was so damn fast.

Quote:

 

Super Yi Xing Long: "It's no use, Goku. Once a Dragon Ball is absorbed into my body, the power of the minus energy that flows within me pollutes it again. He has been reborn with his evil power at full throttle."

"It appears that my minus power has completely taken his soft side from him this time. He is indeed an Evil Dragon!"

"Surely, you took on my minus power!"

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 7 2014, 04:01 PM

Here are the quotes from an earlier post. I'll go back and watch the episode and the Goku/Si fight in a bit.

Quote:

 

Super Yi Xing Long: "It's no use, Goku. Once a Dragon Ball is absorbed into my body, the power of the minus energy that flows within me pollutes it again. He has been reborn with his evil power at full throttle."

"It appears that my minus power has completely taken his soft side from him this time. He is indeed an Evil Dragon!"

"Surely, you took on my minus power!"

Ava Chang

Mar 7 2014, 11:31 PM

Something Icould never understand is,why do people say Piccolo got a little stronger after fighting Raditz??

Vertical

Mar 7 2014, 11:45 PM

Ava Chang

Mar 7 2014, 11:31 PM

Something Icould never understand is,why do people say Piccolo got a little stronger after fighting Raditz??

Actually fighting is still "training".

NOTE: That isn't to say I agree with those you're talking about, because I've never seen a person say Piccolo got stronger after fighting Radtiz. I'm simply pointing out why that is a completely understandable stance.