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| Vegeta Powering Up | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 5 2014, 09:06 PM (1,676 Views) | |
| * Ketchup Revenge | Mar 8 2014, 03:26 AM Post #16 |
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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The truth is in the official numbers. However, the Kamehameha amp doesn't seem to stack on top of the amp from Kaioken or even Super Saiyan. Goku against Raditz Base power: 416 Goku w/Kamehameha: 900+ That's over a 2x increase Vegeta vs Goku: Vegeta base: 18,000 Vegeta w/Galick Gun: 24,000 That's a 33% increase (1.33x). The reason we know what Vegeta's Galic Gun was is because it matched Goku's KK3 Kamehameha, that would've been 24,000. Goku could only push him back by amping it up to 4x. We also know that there's no Kamehameha amp in SSj (unmastered, at least) because Freeza (who was weaker than Goku) was able to dive into his Kamehameha without getting thrown back. 50% Freeza was also able to hold back Goku's 20x Kamehameha with almost no injuries, which would've put both 20x Goku and 50% Freeza at 60,000,000 if you follow Daiz numbers. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Mar 8 2014, 03:35 AM.
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| Vertical | Mar 8 2014, 03:50 AM Post #17 |
 
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I see no reason to come to that conclusion. I believe Freeza effectively enveloped himself in his own attack and dove in. So it is simply amp'd attack vs amp'd attack in my eyes.
Says who? Just a few things:
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Mar 8 2014, 04:03 AM Post #18 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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If I can't use official numbers in an argument because simply because you discard them as hokum, then I can already say that there's absolutely no point in debating with you. I'm not saying I agree with them either, but it's the closest thing to an official list that we as fans have. You can't simply discard something because you don't want it to exist. And there's no evidence to back your belief of consistent amps across the board. If you can provide evidence, I'm all ears. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Mar 8 2014, 04:09 AM.
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| SSJ | Mar 8 2014, 04:22 AM Post #19 |
 
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He doesn't have to follow the Daizenshuu though. Some of us are under the opinion that the manga is the most canon resource, and that it is the place where we find our facts. Guides in my opinion are meant to be nothing more than guides. For example the Daizenshuu 7 list does not say, "YOU MUST FOLLOW THESE NUMBERS OR ELSE!". It is simply a guidebook which many fans liked, so the numbers stuck. |
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| + Pyrus | Mar 8 2014, 04:23 AM Post #20 |
 
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To use the guidebook numbers and the Kamehameha amp shown against Raditz, Goku's power against 50% Freeza would've had to have been at best 1,500,000. 1,500,000 * 20 = 30,000,000 30,000,000 * 2.2 = 66,000,000,000 If Goku had still been around 3,000,000, his Kamehameha would've been about double that. |
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| Vertical | Mar 8 2014, 04:35 AM Post #21 |
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It is a shame that you believe that my denial of "official" numbers makes us incapable of debating. I believe the guidebooks are there to be used as guides for fans who do not wish to delve any further... but if the interpretation of the people who created it does not match my own, I do not believe I should adjust my interpretation to match their numbers. We both read the same source material. We both have our opinion on events. But I have no idea how much information/research was available to the people creating the guidebooks/official PLs. I am fairly confident it was less than I have access to. I am also fairly confident the time I have invested in reviewing the series is far greater than those who created the guidebooks (at least at the time). For how/why/why they were created, the guidebooks are perfectly suited... but even Aristotle had his scientific theories overturned when new information was presented... even though they had stood for thousands of years... and had seemed absolutely correct at the time. Could you please clarify on this? What is it you believe I'm implying? As I'm unsure of what you believe I'm implying at them moment, I'll have to leave this unanswered but as something that is probably relevant; is there any evidence that Kaioken and Kamehameha do not stack aside from the "official" numbers? |
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| + Kaboom | Mar 8 2014, 04:42 AM Post #22 |
 
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The way I see it, Vegeta's not "powering up" in the same way the heroes can do at that point. He's not actually altering his power, just focusing and using more effort. A scouter would still read him at 18,000 both before and after doing so, but this can apparently affect how accurately natural ki-sensers can judge his power. We see other instances of this happening later.
Edited by Kaboom, Mar 8 2014, 04:45 AM.
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Mar 8 2014, 05:56 AM Post #23 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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Instead of simply debating the validity of power levels, prove your theory by providing evidence. You said that you believed that Vegeta's Galick Gun amp is the same as the Kamehameha. I would like to see your evidence on that, otherwise it's simply your opinion, and as valid as a fan-made power level list, or even the Daizenshuu listed power levels. Opinions are entirely pointless to debate against if the person whose opinion it is doesn't back them up with valid evidence, and it has nothing to do with me not taking you seriously because you don't follow Daiz numbers. I don't disagree with you on that. However, this same principal of needing to provide evidence goes for when you're debating anything, and this is why debating against personal opinions (on any subject) is a complete waste of time. Just now, you provided no evidence to your theory, and you simply stated that you didn't agree with mine and that didn't agree with Daiz levels. If you can't provide evidence for any of your theories, then there's no point in even talking to you. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Mar 8 2014, 06:13 AM.
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| bloodstained euphy | Mar 8 2014, 06:15 AM Post #24 |
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I think that attack amplification and power-up technique boost stack in an additive manner, not a multiplicative manner. Transformations like "5th form" and "Super Saiyan", however, stack on amplifications in a multiplicative manner. My formula looks like this: (User BP * Amplification) + (Kaioken boost) = Kaioken Amplified Attack BP The "Kaioken boost" is basically the amount of power the technique adds on top of your power, so it would be: Total kaioken power - User's base power So, Goku's base BP = 8000 Kamehameha amplification factor = ~2.2 Kaioken multiplier = 3 KKx3 Goku = 24,000 Kaioken boost = 16,000 Kamehameha(w/out KKx3) = ~17,600 KKx3 Kamehameha = ~33,600 Vegeta's Galick Gun only needs an amplification factor of 2x (resulting in a BP of 36,000) to overcome this. |
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| Vertical | Mar 8 2014, 06:35 AM Post #25 |
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There's no evidence to provide for either side... which is why I specifically stated "Personally, I...". Either interpretation is fine as neither has evidence to support it and both go without contradiction... I'm simply providing options/an opinion. You're right. My interpretation is of no more value than either of those things you listed, except to myself. The reason I end up with GG = KHH is personal preference and numerical convenience. The numbers/formula line up nicely with my personal view of this and other events and my conjecture-filled opinion on another matter.
A discussion of varying theories on a subject that has no concrete explanation... surely it is fine to involve personal opinion in such a matter (so long as no opinion is stated as fact, or forced upon others... and nothing is contradicted). As I've said; it's a shame you think that way. Personally, I enjoy discussing possible explanations for unexplained/unclear situations in DB. The ambiguity of the series is likely a huge factor in why it is still discussed so many years after it's completion. I feel like I may have aggravated you somewhere along the way. I apologize if that is the case... it was not my intent. |
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