Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 7 2014, 08:32 PM

Emmeth

Mar 6 2014, 04:53 PM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 5 2014, 10:52 PM

I really don't believe that he ever got much stronger than that because we know that just because you train, doesn't automatically mean that you will get stronger.
There was the five year gap prior to DBZ where Piccolo trained hard, but didn't get any noticeable gains at all because he was still behind Goku.

Goku says he had gotten stronger in RoSaT. And Piccolo said he had focused on techniques rather than strength in those five years. Just wanted to point that out

That is true, but before his ROSAT training, he was only at 17's level. And he nearly got killed by a powered up 1st form Cell.

Jumping up to a level between 2nd form Cell and Super Vegeta is a decent leap through 1 year of intense training.

Herms

 

The terms "Grade 2" and "Grade 3" are based on when Goku displays these forms to Gohan: he transforms into Super Vegeta's bulky form, then says he can transform one grade (dankai) further and promptly transforms into Trunks' super-duper bulky form. Daizenshuu 2 is the first place to formally label the forms Grade 2 and Grade 3.

Hearts

Mar 8 2014, 09:24 AM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 7 2014, 08:32 PM

Emmeth

Mar 6 2014, 04:53 PM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 5 2014, 10:52 PM

I really don't believe that he ever got much stronger than that because we know that just because you train, doesn't automatically mean that you will get stronger.
There was the five year gap prior to DBZ where Piccolo trained hard, but didn't get any noticeable gains at all because he was still behind Goku.

Goku says he had gotten stronger in RoSaT. And Piccolo said he had focused on techniques rather than strength in those five years. Just wanted to point that out

That is true, but before his ROSAT training, he was only at 17's level. And he nearly got killed by a powered up 1st form Cell.

Jumping up to a level between 2nd form Cell and Super Vegeta is a decent leap through 1 year of intense training.

Goku went from below 18 to Cells level
Gohan went from second form frieza (or so) to Cells level

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 8 2014, 06:10 PM

Hearts

Mar 8 2014, 09:24 AM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 7 2014, 08:32 PM

Emmeth

Mar 6 2014, 04:53 PM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 5 2014, 10:52 PM

I really don't believe that he ever got much stronger than that because we know that just because you train, doesn't automatically mean that you will get stronger.
There was the five year gap prior to DBZ where Piccolo trained hard, but didn't get any noticeable gains at all because he was still behind Goku.

Goku says he had gotten stronger in RoSaT. And Piccolo said he had focused on techniques rather than strength in those five years. Just wanted to point that out

That is true, but before his ROSAT training, he was only at 17's level. And he nearly got killed by a powered up 1st form Cell.

Jumping up to a level between 2nd form Cell and Super Vegeta is a decent leap through 1 year of intense training.

Goku went from below 18 to Cells level
Gohan went from second form frieza (or so) to Cells level

Unlike Piccolo, both Goku and Gohan have transformations, so with transformations, their increases aren't linear and they can bypass certain tiers all together. Piccolo needs to reach these and pass through them by training.
We've been shown an example of this when Gero couldn't predict Goku or Vegeta's power because he didn't know about Super Saiyans, and he had a hard time comprehending the massive gaps between base powers and Super Saiyan powers. We also don't exactly know how strong Goku got in the three years of training because we never see him at full power during this time due to the heart ailment that he had. I wouldn't be so dismissive of his gains to put him around 18 in power after the 3 years. It seems quite appropriate to me, and it only seems right to put him above Vegeta simply because he's been Super Saiyan for longer, had a head start, and had a decent training partner.
Even Piccolo states that Goku's power should've been "far more staggering" when he fought 19.

One could also argue that Gero's inability to predict powers was because didn't know much about ki suppression or amping, because he's seen to steal a small amount of ki from Piccolo, and Piccolo was able to pound the tar out of him.

Also we need to factor in the fact that Gohan most likely had zenkai ability prior to his ascension to SSj. That could account for a good chunk of his base power gain.
Saiyans have always shown an ability to bypass all other characters when it comes to gains from training.

Goku and Gohan also had a training partners (each other), while Piccolo didn't.

Another point simply being that the plot didn't qualify Piccolo gaining a ridiculously large amount at that point in time. I don't see it as likely that he got any stronger than Super Vegeta during the Cell Arc.

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 5 2014, 10:03 AM

I place him in between Android No.16 and 2nd Stage Cell mainly because I don't see a reason to have him any higher than that. The two main reasons I see people place him drastically higher than that are - 1) he asked Goku how he compared to Cell, and 2) he wasn't beaten down by the Cell Jrs. like the humans and a tired MSSjin Goku were. My rebuttals for those are as follows:

1) He did not ask Goku anything. The conversation began when Goku complimented Piccolo on his power and Piccolo, being the intelligent man he was, noticed what was up immediately and told Goku to stop patronizing him and admit he was no match for Cell, which Goku then conceded on. There was never any yearning for knowledge on Piccolo's end - he flatout knew where he stood and wasn't going to tolerate any sugarcoating. It could also be noted that this is one of the only times I can recall where Goku wasn't very frank in his power assessments, as in the same vicinity he blatantly admitted he was a whole lot stronger than Vegeta despite knowing of the guy's pride and general attitude, so maybe him making an exception for Piccolo could mean something...or maybe it means nothing.

2) I don't take that as evidence for his standing, no pun intended. I'm aware that the Japanese text from Cell allows Piccolo to possibly be included when it's mentioned that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones able to fight back against the Cell Jrs., but he simply wasn't mentioned, and the objective of the junior ball smashers was to toy with the Z-Fighters, if only for the majority of the event. Even after the order was given for them to kill, the meek humans were still alive, which essentially invalidates any claim that because Piccolo was standing, he was close to Vegeta and Trunks in power, in my opinion.

There's also the opinion that because he was able to keep up with the Super Saiyans beforehand he should be able to do it now, but the Saiyans went into the RoSaT twice, not once like he did, and both times they made fairly impressive gains, so even if Piccolo made a big jump the Saiyans made two.

Now, those reasons aside, some people just make him relatively strong because "well, why not." I don't take that route with anybody and haven't for a fortnight now; I don't make people strong simply on a whim, but that's me. I gave Piccolo credit for jumping to "an entirely different level," as Goku put it, which I believe eclipsing No.16 qualifies as, and that's that.

kuartus4

Mar 8 2014, 07:50 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 5 2014, 10:03 AM

I place him in between Android No.16 and 2nd Stage Cell mainly because I don't see a reason to have him any higher than that. The two main reasons I see people place him drastically higher than that are - 1) he asked Goku how he compared to Cell, and 2) he wasn't beaten down by the Cell Jrs. like the humans and a tired MSSjin Goku were. My rebuttals for those are as follows:

1) He did not ask Goku anything. The conversation began when Goku complimented Piccolo on his power and Piccolo, being the intelligent man he was, noticed what was up immediately and told Goku to stop patronizing him and admit he was no match for Cell, which Goku then conceded on. There was never any yearning for knowledge on Piccolo's end - he flatout knew where he stood and wasn't going to tolerate any sugarcoating. It could also be noted that this is one of the only times I can recall where Goku wasn't very frank in his power assessments, as in the same vicinity he blatantly admitted he was a whole lot stronger than Vegeta despite knowing of the guy's pride and general attitude, so maybe him making an exception for Piccolo could mean something...or maybe it means nothing.

2) I don't take that as evidence for his standing, no pun intended. I'm aware that the Japanese text from Cell allows Piccolo to possibly be included when it's mentioned that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones able to fight back against the Cell Jrs., but he simply wasn't mentioned, and the objective of the junior ball smashers was to toy with the Z-Fighters, if only for the majority of the event. Even after the order was given for them to kill, the meek humans were still alive, which essentially invalidates any claim that because Piccolo was standing, he was close to Vegeta and Trunks in power, in my opinion.

There's also the opinion that because he was able to keep up with the Super Saiyans beforehand he should be able to do it now, but the Saiyans went into the RoSaT twice, not once like he did, and both times they made fairly impressive gains, so even if Piccolo made a big jump the Saiyans made two.

Now, those reasons aside, some people just make him relatively strong because "well, why not." I don't take that route with anybody and haven't for a fortnight now; I don't make people strong simply on a whim, but that's me. I gave Piccolo credit for jumping to "an entirely different level," as Goku put it, which I believe eclipsing No.16 qualifies as, and that's that.

You forget that Trunks was surprised to hear that Post Rosat Piccolo would be useless against Cell. Why would Trunks be surprised if Piccolo was only at Semi Cell level?He wouldn't be surprised if Piccolo was at Super Vegeta's level either since Super Vegeta had just gotten stomped.

And even if the Cell jrs were just playing around, that didn't stop them from stomping the humans and Tired goku into the ground. So why aren't Trunks Vegeta and Piccolo eating dirt as well? Are they getting prefferential treatment? Sounds too convenient. The most parsimonious explanation is that the Jr's weren't capable of grounding them, or else they would have. Heck, Piccolo is still standing even after Cell told the Jr's to stop playing. This does put Piccolo in the general realm of Trunks and Vegeta.

Hearts

Mar 8 2014, 08:02 PM

kuartus4

Mar 8 2014, 07:50 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 5 2014, 10:03 AM

I place him in between Android No.16 and 2nd Stage Cell mainly because I don't see a reason to have him any higher than that. The two main reasons I see people place him drastically higher than that are - 1) he asked Goku how he compared to Cell, and 2) he wasn't beaten down by the Cell Jrs. like the humans and a tired MSSjin Goku were. My rebuttals for those are as follows:

1) He did not ask Goku anything. The conversation began when Goku complimented Piccolo on his power and Piccolo, being the intelligent man he was, noticed what was up immediately and told Goku to stop patronizing him and admit he was no match for Cell, which Goku then conceded on. There was never any yearning for knowledge on Piccolo's end - he flatout knew where he stood and wasn't going to tolerate any sugarcoating. It could also be noted that this is one of the only times I can recall where Goku wasn't very frank in his power assessments, as in the same vicinity he blatantly admitted he was a whole lot stronger than Vegeta despite knowing of the guy's pride and general attitude, so maybe him making an exception for Piccolo could mean something...or maybe it means nothing.

2) I don't take that as evidence for his standing, no pun intended. I'm aware that the Japanese text from Cell allows Piccolo to possibly be included when it's mentioned that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones able to fight back against the Cell Jrs., but he simply wasn't mentioned, and the objective of the junior ball smashers was to toy with the Z-Fighters, if only for the majority of the event. Even after the order was given for them to kill, the meek humans were still alive, which essentially invalidates any claim that because Piccolo was standing, he was close to Vegeta and Trunks in power, in my opinion.

There's also the opinion that because he was able to keep up with the Super Saiyans beforehand he should be able to do it now, but the Saiyans went into the RoSaT twice, not once like he did, and both times they made fairly impressive gains, so even if Piccolo made a big jump the Saiyans made two.

Now, those reasons aside, some people just make him relatively strong because "well, why not." I don't take that route with anybody and haven't for a fortnight now; I don't make people strong simply on a whim, but that's me. I gave Piccolo credit for jumping to "an entirely different level," as Goku put it, which I believe eclipsing No.16 qualifies as, and that's that.

You forget that Trunks was surprised to hear that Post Rosat Piccolo would be useless against Cell. Why would Trunks be surprised if Piccolo was only at Semi Cell level?He wouldn't be surprised if Piccolo was at Super Vegeta's level either since Super Vegeta had just gotten stomped.

And even if the Cell jrs were just playing around, that didn't stop them from stomping the humans and Tired goku into the ground. So why aren't Trunks Vegeta and Piccolo eating dirt as well? Are they getting prefferential treatment? Sounds too convenient. The most parsimonious explanation is that the Jr's weren't capable of grounding them, or else they would have. Heck, Piccolo is still standing even after Cell told the Jr's to stop playing. This does put Piccolo in the general realm of Trunks and Vegeta.

Trunks didnt exactly say anything, all we get is Trunks looking at Goku while he said that. Cant be certain if hes surprised that Goku was brutally honest or just that Piccolo is powerful.
Other than that, I agree with you

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 8 2014, 06:10 PM

Hearts

Mar 8 2014, 09:24 AM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 7 2014, 08:32 PM

Emmeth

Mar 6 2014, 04:53 PM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Mar 5 2014, 10:52 PM

I really don't believe that he ever got much stronger than that because we know that just because you train, doesn't automatically mean that you will get stronger.
There was the five year gap prior to DBZ where Piccolo trained hard, but didn't get any noticeable gains at all because he was still behind Goku.

Goku says he had gotten stronger in RoSaT. And Piccolo said he had focused on techniques rather than strength in those five years. Just wanted to point that out

That is true, but before his ROSAT training, he was only at 17's level. And he nearly got killed by a powered up 1st form Cell.

Jumping up to a level between 2nd form Cell and Super Vegeta is a decent leap through 1 year of intense training.

Goku went from below 18 to Cells level
Gohan went from second form frieza (or so) to Cells level

Unlike Piccolo, both Goku and Gohan have transformations, so with transformations, their increases aren't linear and they can bypass certain tiers all together. Piccolo needs to reach these and pass through them by training.
We've been shown an example of this when Gero couldn't predict Goku or Vegeta's power because he didn't know about Super Saiyans, and he had a hard time comprehending the massive gaps between base powers and Super Saiyan powers. We also don't exactly know how strong Goku got in the three years of training because we never see him at full power during this time due to the heart ailment that he had. I wouldn't be so dismissive of his gains to put him around 18 in power after the 3 years. It seems quite appropriate to me, and it only seems right to put him above Vegeta simply because he's been Super Saiyan for longer, had a head start, and had a decent training partner.
Even Piccolo states that Goku's power should've been "far more staggering" when he fought 19.

One could also argue that Gero's inability to predict powers was because didn't know much about ki suppression or amping, because he's seen to steal a small amount of ki from Piccolo, and Piccolo was able to pound the tar out of him.

Also we need to factor in the fact that Gohan most likely had zenkai ability prior to his ascension to SSj. That could account for a good chunk of his base power gain.
Saiyans have always shown an ability to bypass all other characters when it comes to gains from training.

Goku and Gohan also had a training partners (each other), while Piccolo didn't.

Another point simply being that the plot didn't qualify Piccolo gaining a ridiculously large amount at that point in time. I don't see it as likely that he got any stronger than Super Vegeta during the Cell Arc.

kuartus4

Mar 8 2014, 07:50 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 5 2014, 10:03 AM

I place him in between Android No.16 and 2nd Stage Cell mainly because I don't see a reason to have him any higher than that. The two main reasons I see people place him drastically higher than that are - 1) he asked Goku how he compared to Cell, and 2) he wasn't beaten down by the Cell Jrs. like the humans and a tired MSSjin Goku were. My rebuttals for those are as follows:

1) He did not ask Goku anything. The conversation began when Goku complimented Piccolo on his power and Piccolo, being the intelligent man he was, noticed what was up immediately and told Goku to stop patronizing him and admit he was no match for Cell, which Goku then conceded on. There was never any yearning for knowledge on Piccolo's end - he flatout knew where he stood and wasn't going to tolerate any sugarcoating. It could also be noted that this is one of the only times I can recall where Goku wasn't very frank in his power assessments, as in the same vicinity he blatantly admitted he was a whole lot stronger than Vegeta despite knowing of the guy's pride and general attitude, so maybe him making an exception for Piccolo could mean something...or maybe it means nothing.

2) I don't take that as evidence for his standing, no pun intended. I'm aware that the Japanese text from Cell allows Piccolo to possibly be included when it's mentioned that Vegeta and Trunks are the only ones able to fight back against the Cell Jrs., but he simply wasn't mentioned, and the objective of the junior ball smashers was to toy with the Z-Fighters, if only for the majority of the event. Even after the order was given for them to kill, the meek humans were still alive, which essentially invalidates any claim that because Piccolo was standing, he was close to Vegeta and Trunks in power, in my opinion.

There's also the opinion that because he was able to keep up with the Super Saiyans beforehand he should be able to do it now, but the Saiyans went into the RoSaT twice, not once like he did, and both times they made fairly impressive gains, so even if Piccolo made a big jump the Saiyans made two.

Now, those reasons aside, some people just make him relatively strong because "well, why not." I don't take that route with anybody and haven't for a fortnight now; I don't make people strong simply on a whim, but that's me. I gave Piccolo credit for jumping to "an entirely different level," as Goku put it, which I believe eclipsing No.16 qualifies as, and that's that.

You forget that Trunks was surprised to hear that Post Rosat Piccolo would be useless against Cell. Why would Trunks be surprised if Piccolo was only at Semi Cell level?He wouldn't be surprised if Piccolo was at Super Vegeta's level either since Super Vegeta had just gotten stomped.

Quote:

 

And even if the Cell jrs were just playing around, that didn't stop them from stomping the humans and Tired goku into the ground. So why aren't Trunks Vegeta and Piccolo eating dirt as well? Are they getting prefferential treatment? Sounds too convenient. The most parsimonious explanation is that the Jr's weren't capable of grounding them, or else they would have. Heck, Piccolo is still standing even after Cell told the Jr's to stop playing. This does put Piccolo in the general realm of Trunks and Vegeta.

Quote:

 

"Piccolo didn't ask Goku anything. He was the one who straight up admitted he was garbage compared to Cell even though he'd gotten a lot stronger"


Piccolo would have known how strong Cell was from hearing Goku's conversation with Karin.

kuartus4

Mar 8 2014, 07:50 PM

Piccolo would have known how strong Cell was from hearing Goku's conversation with Karin.

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 8 2014, 10:02 PM

You know he heard that conversation?

Hearts

Mar 8 2014, 10:18 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Mar 8 2014, 10:02 PM

You know he heard that conversation?

Piccolos hearing is good, but its not 10 km good.