Ketchupis Ultionis

Feb 23 2014, 06:07 PM

I just don't understand how we can make a conclusion based on what Gandalf "might be able to do" because he's "like a god". I'm not denying that he'd be able to win, but that that's not really fair, to be completely honest.

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Tolkien’s wizards are in keeping with early Medieval and ancient tradition. They can read signs in nature—see and understand things that others can’t, make predictions, wield magical objects (staffs, rings, and Palantir), once in a while make something appear to have happened that is miraculous to everyone else (spells), and lead and “talk to nature”—communicate with moths and eagles and in Saruman’s case the corvids of Middle Earth.

Ancient wizards were guides mostly and seen as the highly educated. Gandalf clearly fills that role, and does so with superb skill. He takes hints and clues, a suspicion grows and he heads to the library to confirm it. He is able to read signs of things to come, knows the right words to say (not just when it comes to spells but to ease fear and encourage, knows when not to say something. He is seen as a wise man and followed as one.

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‘But not Gandalf. Bilbo’s yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.’ - Goblins dead in a flash.

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‘Just at that moment all the lights in the cavern went out, and the great fire went off into a tower of blue glowing smoke, right up to the roof, that scattered piercing white sparks all among the goblins.

The yells and yammering, croaking, jibbering and jabbering; howls, growls, and curses; shrieking and skriking, that followed were beyond description. Several hundred wild cats and wolves being roasted slowly alive would not have compared with it. The sparks were burning holes in the goblins, and the smoke that now fell from the roof made the air too thick for even their eyes to see through. Soon they were falling over one another and rolling in heaps on the floor, biting and kicking and fighting as if they had all gone mad.’

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‘Gandalf laughed grimly. “You see? Already you too, Frodo, cannot easily let it go, nor will to damage it. And I could not ‘make’ you – except by force, which would break your mind.”’

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‘“You have talked long in your sleep, Frodo,” said Gandalf gently, “and it has not been hard for me to read your mind and memory.”’

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‘I galloped to Weathertop like a gale, and I reached it before sundown on my second day from Bree – and they were there before me. They drew away from me, for they felt the coming of my anger and dared not face it while the Sun was in the sky. But they closed round at night, and I was besieged on the hill-top, in the old ring of Amon Sűl. I was hard put to it indeed: such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war-beacons of old.’

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‘In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.

“Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan I ngaurhoth!” he cried.

There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light. The swords and knives of the defenders shone and flickered. The last arrow of Legolas kindled in the air as it flew, and plunged burning into the heart of a great wolf-chieftain. All the others fled.’

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“Did I not say that I wished to speak to you?” said the old man. “Put away that bow, Master Elf!”

The bow and arrow fell from Legolas’ hands, and his arms hung loose at his sides.’

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‘The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.’

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‘“Come back, Saruman!” said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw.’

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‘He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.

In the gloom, they heard the hiss of Wormtongue’s voice: “Did I not counsel you, lord, to forbid his staff? That fool, Háma, has betrayed us!” There was a flash as if lightning had cloven the roof. Then all was silent. Wormtongue sprawled on his face.’

Sir Brofist

Feb 24 2014, 04:56 PM

In the book, Dumbledore states that even without his Horcruxes, Voldy's prowess would still be at their prime. He'd just be soulless and killable, but hardly weaker.