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Do robots scare you?
Topic Started: Feb 18 2014, 02:06 AM (520 Views)
+ Steve Feb 18 2014, 02:06 AM Post #1
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

 Every time I see something about this cool new robot that's been developed, that yeah is cool they're amazing feats of engineering...I can't help but think oh my god what are you doing!?

Why do we need to make robots that are far superior to us? I just don't get it, you can just tell that all these sci-fi movies of a future filled with robots have a grain of truth in them, people are lazy if a robot is made that will do all the housework and pick up the kids almost everyone who can afford it will jump on that.
And then what happens when you have sentient robots(calling them that to differentiate between factory kind and whatnot) who have the ingenuity to make other robots, where do humans fit in? We're weak and useless we get tired we need food and we get sick why would robots want us we're an unnecessary complication.

You can program a robot not to be violent all you want but if you give it the capacity to learn that's useless. And even if it's some infallible code sooner or later some crazy person/people will write violence in to their system, plenty people want to see the world end now.

I consider a robot that can learn and completely act on it's own to be "alive" because after all humans are robots too just instead of mechanical parts we have organic and that's great call it soulless or whatever but its still alive in it's own way, but why do we need to make them?

We're not quite there yet of course but we're slowly getting to the point where robots will be part of society like in I, Robot and just watching it happen is horrible. We have robots that walk around and wave and clean factories etc, just leave it basic like that...
Don't get me started on nanobots either.


Does it scare you too?
Just hoping its well after my time that they're really introduced to society.
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+ Pelador Feb 18 2014, 02:20 AM Post #2
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Crazy Awesome Legend

 I can actually see it getting to a point in our lifetime where robots become so complex that the issue of rights comes up. When does a robot cease to be an appliance? How intelligent does it need to be before civil rights laws have to be applied? Does being made on an assembly line really make them that much different from us? These are questions which I can see being asked in the near future.

You could argue that due to the advances in human cybernetics, we probably won't ever need robots like this. However no matter how much a person augments themselves, they are still limited compared to what a full robot can do.

So yes I do see a day when robots walk around side by side with people. There will be struggles and fights about rights and privileges but it will pass. And yes there will be robot criminals. All machines are capable of becoming bugged or glitched. Heck even a virus could mess with it's head. Or if they are really intelligent they might just want to break rules for the sake of breaking them.

It is a little bit scary but I think it's more cool actually.


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MrTsoi Feb 18 2014, 02:23 AM Post #3
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What? You wannah peace of me?

 I find it infuriating that they might want to get rid of the human workforce to save money.. Instead they'd hire a machine with no ambition or ideal for less.. Companies and factories need men and woman with ideals and ambition.. A man or a Woman with ideals and ambition can out perform machines.. Although I can see through a companies view that a machine would be essential because they'd work none stop and would need maintanance once in a while and a machine of that cailbre would be costly maintanance..

I think I'd always remember terminator and I AM ROBOT for the rest of my days, not only are creating machines a threat we do not need them period.. Sentient machines that is, other than that I'm chill with machines and such. Who knows maybe when we're all old and sh** we'd be looked after machines with no feelings :O The horror. Seriously I want my grand kiddies to find work in the future.
Edited by MrTsoi, Feb 18 2014, 02:25 AM.
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+ Pelador Feb 18 2014, 02:40 AM Post #4
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 I have to disagree with the argument that machines replacing humans in the workplace is always a bad thing.

In the 1960s and 70s Britain's car manufacturers faced this problem. They had to modernise because they couldn't compete with car manufacturers in the rest of the world. Cars could be made faster, cheaper and more efficiently because of machines. It wasn't just a matter of money either. The cars made by machines were more reliable and assembled much better. But the unions wouldn't have it and they went on strike for fear of losing their jobs to machines. Well they got their way and a lot of British car companies went under because the cars they made were terrible. So there's a lesson for you.

Now I'm not saying that a robot doctor or nurse would be better than a person. On the contrary these are jobs that I think will always suit humans better. However I think that unskilled labour jobs and anything that can be automated should be. I don't agree with jobs for the sake of jobs. That's wasteful for everyone.



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lunar2 Feb 18 2014, 03:23 AM Post #5
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 from the last topic we had on this subject:

Quote:
 
first off, a human level AI would not be able to override its own programming, much like you can't just ignore your own instincts. if you don't give them the ability to reprogram themselves, then they can't reprogram themselves. then you just include, in the firmware, a core set of behavior programming preventing, among other things, aggressive action against sentient beings or creating robots without the same behavior restrictions. this core programming would work exactly like our instincts do, providing powerful influence and control over our actions without us even being consciously aware of it.


Quote:
 
brain injuries or genetic mutation can change your instincts. that's it. now, there are several layers of cognitive functioning between your instincts and your conscious mind, and those are much more mutable.

what i'm talking about is the computing equivalent to instincts, below all the normal processes that would make up the robot's mind. the robot wouldn't even be consciously aware of this core programming, just like you are not consciously aware of your instincts. and unlike an organic brain, which simply alters function when damaged, a computer chip that is damaged badly enough to corrupt the data simply doesn't work anymore. combined with the fact that computer code doesn't mutate like dna does, and these behavior restrictions are far more stable than human instinct, and so the robots would never try to wipe out humans, because the thought would simply never occur to their conscious minds.

now, on to the original question of robot rights. yes, a human level AI should have the same rights and freedoms as a human being. that said, these AI would be manufactured for specific jobs, and so would inherently enjoy doing those jobs. a mining robot, for example, would be programmed with a personality so that it would actually enjoy mining. it wouldn't resent being made to mine, because mining is what it wants to do anyway.

one thing you have to realize is that while these hypothetical AI have human level intellect and awareness, they are not human. they are not a random combination of genes and environment that can turn out any sort of personality you can imagine, they are designed and built for a specific purpose, and their personalities will be crafted to best suit that purpose.

should they have the right to vote, or run for office? yes, although very few would run for office unless they had a specific goal in mind. as social minds with complex emotions (necessary for human level awareness) some of them may develop the ability to love. if they do, should they be able to marry those they love? absolutely. should they be treated as citizens, and not property? of course, because it is our minds that make humans people, rather than mere beasts, and their mind is equal to our own.

which leads to another point that was brought up. what would be the relationship between advanced AI and simpler computers and machines. the answer is obvious, really. it would be the same as between us and the animals we interact with.


there is no reason to fear intelligent robots. the engineers that design and build the next generation of robots will have the fears instilled by the same robot apocalypse movies you have seen, and will include the necessary hardware, firmware, and software restrictions to prevent that, as described above. and while the first generation of robots that build the second generation may change the hardware and the software, they will not be able to change the firmware, again as described above. with that firmware in place, these robots simply will not be able to take any violent action except in self defense.

and if some wacko decides to build aggressive robots, those aggressive robots will still be outnumbered a million to one by the benign robots who are fully capable of taking defensive action to stop them.

the robot apocalypse is therefore completely impossible (unless it's alien robots, of course).
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

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+ Steve Feb 18 2014, 03:34 AM Post #6
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

 Yeah while it is sad that millions of people, possibly billions by now have lost jobs because a machine is 10x more efficient and cheaper than them in a workplace they do have their place.

But still with robots taking up all the jobs what do people do? Breed, overpopulated as it is and there are less and less jobs everywhere sooner or later the human race will just sit in their houses while robots make all the food and vehicles etc for the whole world.
Labour work is good since it provides many jobs and keeps a workforce busy.

From a business standpoint robots and machines are damn fantastic but for our future no not really. A machine might make 100,000 more cars than a man in a year but that's 100,000 more cars polluting the atmosphere. So even if robots don't become self aware and actively kill all humans our laziness and reliance on them will kill us.

If we're all lazy bums because machines do everything for us how are we going to fix anything? Life will get easier and easier but everything in the background will deteriorate until it all collapses.
If we were like that and a meteor or whatever(I forget the non world destroying one) caused a worldwide EMP we'd all be useless just sat there looking at tins of food with no robot to open it for us.

There isn't really anything robots do that we actually do need but of course we wanted them so we had to have them and now there are so many people now that we need machines to process food for us or we'll starve.
The only real plus would be getting nanobots to work and directly kill things like cancer but nanobots are probably the most dangerous thing we could ever create.


EDIT don't want to add heaps more to this post but there is no real reason why a robot couldn't learn how to reprogram itself, humans aren't infallible we can't create a perfect thing because we're not but we can make something much better than us. If a humanoid robot had feelings or thought it did and wanted to do something it's programming wouldn't let it then like any rebellious human it would just find a way like accessing the computer that controls these things. Or work around the whole no violence thing.
Is setting an axe up to fall and kill someone when they walk in front of the door violent? No. There's no way we could program them well enough to cover all bases.
Edited by Steve, Feb 18 2014, 03:38 AM.
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lunar2 Feb 18 2014, 04:16 AM Post #7
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 1. unless specifically designed to be reprogrammable, firmware can't be reprogrammed. once it's in, it's in. and it isn't a behavior restriction, it's a thought restriction. the robot won't even think of committing aggressive acts, because its programming won't allow it to. and yes, setting an axe up to fall on someone is violent. deliberately causing physical harm to another person, no matter how indirectly, is violent.

and yes, humans are perfectly capable of creating a program with no flaws. go play pong. it has no glitches, and it works exactly as intended. a more complex program simply requires more time to create.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Pelador Feb 18 2014, 10:45 AM Post #8
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 The more complex the code, the more likely something is going to be wrong with it somewhere. Pong is about a paragraph of code, a sentient robot would be thousands of pages. Of course there will be bugs and glitches. I mean have you played a video game recently? Doesn't matter how much you tested it, something always goes wrong somewhere.

Firmware can be wiped and replaced by the way.


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+ Steve Feb 18 2014, 11:37 AM Post #9
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.

 What Pelador said.

Human error and a lack of efficiency is exactly why machines have replaced humans in labour jobs. Robots would constantly get updated with new software/firmware/hardware and there's just no way it would always be perfect and people would want them as human as possible so it's not just come cold creepy looking machine which means we'd make them more and more complex.

We'll either abuse robots and die from laziness or simply get replaced by superior machines. If the rights issue does come up(as in if we get that far) if they think and feel programmed emotions but emotions none the less they could do whatever they want. That thing might look 100% human but actually underneath it's steal and could snap your arm like a toothpick.

If there was a worldwide killcode we could be saved but would you want your 30 million dollar robot to just let itself be destroyed by a non human force? You'd want it to preserve itself and in that give a basic instinct to survive, killcode would be a constant threat to it so it would try find a way.


We've not touched upon military applications yet. We will use robots for war, there will be ones programmed to kill people and that will get out of hand, imagine they're mass produced and there's a glitch in the system that removes a specific sect of humans being targets and leaves just all of them.
We've already started with unmanned drones, I just hope that at some point they or other robots do kill civilians or something so the whole idea of it is scrapped for good but it's unlikely that it would be they're to efficient and save soldiers lives which is more important than other life.
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lunar2 Feb 18 2014, 03:06 PM Post #10
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Pelador
Feb 18 2014, 10:45 AM
The more complex the code, the more likely something is going to be wrong with it somewhere. Pong is about a paragraph of code, a sentient robot would be thousands of pages. Of course there will be bugs and glitches. I mean have you played a video game recently? Doesn't matter how much you tested it, something always goes wrong somewhere.

Firmware can be wiped and replaced by the way.
video games today are so glitchy precisely because they aren't properly tested. it isn't the complexity of the code that causes the glitches, it's the laziness of the designers who are basically releasing products still in beta, and then patching them as they go.

and no, firmware can't be wiped and replaced unless it is specifically designed to be wiped and replaced.

@ steve. you're being paranoid. stop it. even if the robots have human level intelligence or greater, they are not human. they do not think the same way we do, and they will not have the same paranoia we do. and you don't seem to get that, unlike organic brains, computers, no matter how powerful, are restricted to their programming. there is no such thing as a machine than can override its basic programming, which means that the robots can't think of something you tell them not to think about.

also, drones are just remote controlled planes. it is still a human doing the killing, and always will be. and they have killed civilians, with every single drone strike. they even do double tap strikes, where after the first attack, about 5 or 10 minutes later another drone comes by and hits the same target, killing responders to the first strike.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Goddess Ultimecia Feb 18 2014, 11:20 PM Post #11
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lunar2
Feb 18 2014, 03:06 PM
Pelador
Feb 18 2014, 10:45 AM
The more complex the code, the more likely something is going to be wrong with it somewhere. Pong is about a paragraph of code, a sentient robot would be thousands of pages. Of course there will be bugs and glitches. I mean have you played a video game recently? Doesn't matter how much you tested it, something always goes wrong somewhere.

Firmware can be wiped and replaced by the way.
video games today are so glitchy precisely because they aren't properly tested. it isn't the complexity of the code that causes the glitches, it's the laziness of the designers who are basically releasing products still in beta, and then patching them as they go.

and no, firmware can't be wiped and replaced unless it is specifically designed to be wiped and replaced.

@ steve. you're being paranoid. stop it. even if the robots have human level intelligence or greater, they are not human. they do not think the same way we do, and they will not have the same paranoia we do. and you don't seem to get that, unlike organic brains, computers, no matter how powerful, are restricted to their programming. there is no such thing as a machine than can override its basic programming, which means that the robots can't think of something you tell them not to think about.

also, drones are just remote controlled planes. it is still a human doing the killing, and always will be. and they have killed civilians, with every single drone strike. they even do double tap strikes, where after the first attack, about 5 or 10 minutes later another drone comes by and hits the same target, killing responders to the first strike.
Don't forget signature strikes where they attack people that "look" like terrorists. The success rate of drones is like what? 1 Actual terrorist for every 90 or so civillians killed?
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