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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 8 2014, 06:05 PM (2,249 Views) | |
| Daemon Keido | Feb 18 2014, 12:00 AM Post #16 |
Warmaster of Chaos
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On the subject of the criminality of an act, it is best that when given the choice between lawful and good that one chooses to do what is good. Beyond that, Mitas' answer on tbe subject is a perfect example of my perspective on the criminality aspect. Suicidal people are, generally speaking, suicidal for a reason. If that reason is for mental instability the proper code of action is to figure out why they felt that way and to take apropriate actions, which usually begins with psychiatric help. If the reason is a matter of protest, as has been done in the past in Tibet and D.C. via self-immolation, what should be looked at is why these actions were felt justified in the first place and to take actions to change them. |
A Shadow is merely Darkness in the presence of Light Thanks Kid Buu for this awesome sig! The Emperor Protects | |
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| Tensa Zangetsu | Feb 18 2014, 11:12 AM Post #17 |
Catch me if you can!
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Ofcourse Abortion is murder. You are taking the life of a baby. Same with Suicide since you're murdering yourself. I believe that God gave us life and only he has the right to take it away. I'm not saying its right, that's just my opinion. We can't say its wrong either because the perspective differs between people from different countries. In that sense you can very well argue that certain crimes shouldn't be punishable. |
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| lunar2 | Feb 18 2014, 11:33 PM Post #18 |
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certain crimes shouldn't be punishable, because they shouldn't be crimes in the first place. there are many places where homosexuality is punishable by death, for example. but it is perfectly clear to anyone who isn't a brainwashed loser that it is wrong to punish someone for their sexual orientation, since it is obviously and demonstrably not a choice, and it doesn't hurt anyone. the fact that homophobia is established in the law doesn't make that homophobia less wrong. every thinking person knows that homophobia is wrong no matter what form it takes, from arguing against gay marriage all the way up to trying to kill gays. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| Tensa Zangetsu | Feb 19 2014, 11:31 AM Post #19 |
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Catch me if you can!
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I am not saying the law is always right. It differs from person to person depending on their perspective. Certain countries don't want to encourage gay marriages as it could have a bad impact on society, hence why its illegal there. You can't say this law is wrong either. |
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| lunar2 | Feb 19 2014, 02:43 PM Post #20 |
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actually, yes i can. gay people being allowed to get married can have no negative impact on society. all citizens being treated equally is always a good thing. discrimination based on uncontrollable factors is always a bad thing. we have the proof of this right here in america. gays are treated as second class citizens, and we have groups that are so determined to keep gays down that the kansas state legislature is actually in the process of passing a law that would permit anyone, from cops, to fire fighters, to doctors, to real estate agents, to lawyers, to teachers, etc. to deny products, services, lodging, aid, or advantages of any kind to gay people if "it violates their deeply held religious beliefs". this means that fire fighters could refuse to rescue a person from a burning building if they are gay, doctors in the E.R. could refuse to treat a critically injured gay man, companies of any size can not only fire their gay employees without justification, but they are explicitly protected from lawsuits under the law. so yes, allowing discrimination to stand leads to extremes such as this. therefore even minor discrimination is wrong, and has to be stopped. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Feb 19 2014, 04:37 PM Post #21 |
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Suicide is WAY to expensive $2,000 for a coffin?! They should just do drugs like everyone else. |
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| Master Gohan | Mar 17 2014, 03:14 PM Post #22 |
 
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I think it should be punishable to believe in god because of opinions like this. |
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| lunar2 | Mar 17 2014, 07:09 PM Post #23 |
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it's not only the belief in god that causes these opinions. and besides, an unjustified abortion pretty much is murder. you are killing an organism that is scientifically alive, scientifically human, and has the potential to become conscious at a later date. from an ethical stand point, it is no different than a prepubescent child that got knocked out on the playground. you don't go killing people who have recently slipped into a coma (before any diagnosis of brain death can be made) simply because it is inconvenient, so why would you kill a fetus, who has just as good a chance of gaining consciousness in the near future (or with abortions after the 23rd week, may already be capable of consciousness)? now, i feel i should clarify what i consider a justified or unjustified abortion. if the mother is a minor, abortion is justified, because her body is not fully developed and pregnancy has significantly higher than normal risks. if the mother was sexually assaulted or abused in any way, and that assault/abuse was the cause of her pregnancy, abortion is justified, because she was denied the right to choose whether or not she got pregnant. i would personally want to add the caveat that the mother should file a police report prior to the abortion taking place, so that police can collect the fetus as evidence, and to deter the (hopefully small) minority of women who would abuse this excuse by lying about an assault, but i understand you can't force the victim to report the crime, because that would, in a way, be victimizing them again. if the mother has a physical or mental health condition that is related to or exacerbated by pregnancy or childbirth, abortion is justified, even if the condition isn't necessarily life threatening. better safe than sorry. if the mother can prove that she used contraception, for example by providing her birth control prescription, or a receipt showing she bought plan B, then abortion is justified. i personally don't like this one, but i understand you can't punish a woman who took the necessary steps to protect herself, and got pregnant anyway, as rare as that is. however, if a healthy adult woman has consensual, unprotected sex, and gets pregnant, i have no sympathy for her. she needs to take responsibility for her actions and give birth to the life that she brought into this world, no matter how "inconvenient" it may be. she should have thought of that before she got pregnant. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| Master Gohan | Mar 17 2014, 07:14 PM Post #24 |
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Personally, I think its butting into someones business if you think abortion shouldn't be legal. Why do you care if some woman in Colorado has an abortion? Or some woman in England? It doesn't matter, you really couldn't care less. It's not your kid, it doesn't even know its alive. Wouldn't you agree that murder is always wrong no matter what? If you care sooooo much about abortion to the point where you think its murder, then I can't understand how you could justify abortion even in a case of rape. You think abortion is murder, well then it shouldn't matter if the woman got raped (which is horrible) because murder is murder. Can't have it both ways. You're either for or against it. |
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| lunar2 | Mar 17 2014, 07:49 PM Post #25 |
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no. it's a complex issue. and murder is merely a subset of killing. you can kill someone without it being murder. and just like killing someone in self defense is not murder, neither is abortion when you have an appropriate justification. you're trying to make this into some black and white issue when it isn't. almost nothing in life is a black and white issue. also, for the record: definition of kill: verb: to cause the death of (a person, animal, or plant) : to end the life of (someone or something) definition of murder: verb: to kill (a person) in a deliberate and unlawful way : to commit the murder of (someone) noun: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought so to commit murder requires deliberation and malice. setting up an appointment with a doctor to kill an unborn child simply because you don't want the child is both deliberate and malicious. malice: noun: a desire to cause harm to another person. so when you get an abortion to protect yourself from situation X (such as the trauma of a rape), that is defending yourself. when you get an abortion simply because you don't want a baby, that is murder. also, it doesn't matter whose kid it is. if i see an unconscious kid getting beat up in the street, am i supposed to ignore it just because the kid isn't mine? no, of course not. i'd be a f***ing monster if i didn't care. when the life of a human being is on the line, there is no such thing as mind your own business. it's part of your business simply by your nature as a decent human being to care about those around you. Edited by lunar2, Mar 17 2014, 07:53 PM.
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| * Yu Narukami | Mar 17 2014, 10:32 PM Post #26 |
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Izanagi!
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Notice the use of 'unlawful' in the definitions. Whether or not you personally think it should be 'murder', unless the law of the land states it as such, it isn't the case. Also, referring to the fetus as an 'unborn child', to me at least, is merely an attempt to convince people to be against abortion because it sounds so much more damning and serious. Additionally, comparing abortion to an unconscious child being beaten up on the street is completely pointless, they're two entirely separate cases with all different facts and factors. |
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| i am wolf the noob lol | Mar 18 2014, 12:07 AM Post #27 |
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It makes sense that some people aren't entirely for or against abortion. Yes, a foetus isn't exactly close to being a actual child, but I don't think that that's reason enough to ignore the fact that it is a living human. I'm not completely against it, since you can't expect everyone that gets pregnant to actually have or want a baby. Some maybe got pregnant because they were being stupid and some may have gotten it because of rape. Honestly, I would never want my wife or girlfriend to have an abortion, but if it was really necessary for good reasons, I'd try my best to accept it. I'm neutral towards it. I don't like it, personally, but I do understand the need for it. On topic: I don't see people as cowards for commiting suicides, neither corageous. If someone feels like they don't want to live anymore, then they should be free to decide on what to do with their life. On the other hand, other people should have the right to do everything they can to stop them. You can't decide to kill yourself and not expect others, including people that care for you, to just stand there and not care. I don't think it should be punished though. They should get help instead. And I do believe in god. Not everyone that believes in god shares the same opinion. It's idiotic to start the whole religion debate. That was a very dumb statement, by the way. Everyone has their right to their own opinion. If you don't like their opinion, you shouldn't just go around and blaming their religion/beliefs for it. Just makes you look stupid. And yeah, I did already think of suicide and actually quite often, especially a few years ago. I don't think I was ever close to seriously consider it though. |
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| lunar2 | Mar 18 2014, 12:17 AM Post #28 |
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the arguments for abortion tend to be one or more of 4 things. 1. the fetus isn't alive. 2. the fetus isn't human. 3. the fetus isn't conscious. 4. the fetus can't survive on its own. 1. a fetus or embryo meets all the scientific criteria for life except the ability to reproduce. therefore, either it is alive, or life does not begin until puberty. so a fetus and a child are alike in this respect. 2. a fetus has the exact same DNA as any human. therefore, it is a member of homo sapiens, therefore it is human. humanity begins at conception, where you gain the dna profile of a member of homo sapiens. so a fetus and a child are alike in this respect. 3. while a fetus isn't conscious, neither is someone who just got knocked out. assuming the person KO'd wasn't actually injured, both the fetus and the unconscious person have a very good chance of gaining consciousness at a later point. so the fetus and the unconscious child are alike in this respect. 4. while it is true a fetus can't survive without its mother, neither can a small child. so a fetus and a small child are alike in this respect. so in all the ways that count for the purposes of an abortion argument, a fetus is the same as an unconscious infant or toddler. and yet society and the law have built this false dichotomy up where the fetus is somehow not a person, unlike the infant, merely because it is less developed. the difference between a fetus and a small child is only one of degree, not one of kind. also, on the subject of murder. the law is often wrong. for example, in texas, you can legally shoot and kill a prostitute who took your money without having sex with you, as long as it happened at night. are you seriously going to argue that that is suddenly ok just because the law says it is? what about the houston store clerk who killed a man for stealing a twelve pack of beer? are you actually going to argue that that prostitute, or that petty thief actually deserved to die? |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Mar 18 2014, 04:29 AM Post #29 |
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I'm all for abortion because it's not my right to impede on another person's decision. I can sympathize with almost everyone, even murderers. I don't even think that murder is inherently always wrong. So I really don't care whether people consider abortion to be "murder" or not. All that aside, it doesn't coincide with my definition of murder anyway. Maybe my perception of morality is a bit skewed in some peoples' opinions, but that's just how I feel. |
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| lunar2 | Mar 18 2014, 05:04 AM Post #30 |
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wait a minute. you actually believe there is a situation where deliberately killing someone with malice is not wrong? remember that to murder someone, you have to a. mean to kill them, and b. want to kill them. it's not self defense, it's not accidental. the closest thing you can get to a justifiable murder is revenge killing, and even that is definitely wrong. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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