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| Why Religion? Why Not Unicorns? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 4 2014, 03:01 AM (5,466 Views) | |
| Pookie | Feb 21 2014, 01:32 PM Post #91 |
Pookie Powa!
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You still have a choice though. You're choosing to not believe in God. There is no one pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to believe in God's existence. Whether that will be bad for you, is up to God. A gangster putting a gun to someone's head is the same thing. You do have a choice. Most people would choose to live and give up their life's savings. However, they also have a choice to be the "tough guy/gal" and say NO. It is possible they will get shot, but they still have the choice...yes. Therefore, I still don't get your concept of there not being "free will." No one can say for sure anybody would end up in hell because in the end only God can decide that. Those people who go around spewing that nonsense are committing sins themselves because they do not have the authority to make that decision. Also, my evidence other than "faith" I have explained in the past. When I was in time of need or trouble, why is that I feel more calm after I pray or seek assistance/guidance? I think that's proof to me that there is something other then what my physical eyes can see. The tough times I went through are enough for me to say that God does exist. I could have questioned my faith and gone on my path to just taking medicine for the rest of my life. When I took medicine for my depression, it made me sicker. When I prayed, it made me feel better. This is why I continue believing that God exists, yet you can't give me that. You can't say well "maybe you have a point or maybe that is some kind of proof. " I am giving you your side acceptance by saying that you know if that path made you feel better, then go for it. The Big Bang theory and Evolution I accept as being a part of History. At the same time, you're not giving me anything here. You're not giving me the benefit of the doubt. This is my biggest issue with this debate. There are some instances in this life that not even science or mankind can explain.
Also, if you take the side of there not being a God, you're saying you know everything, therefore, your side is also as useless as mine. Your proof of there not being a God is based off events in History that most humans were not alive to witness firsthand. Your proof is based off the seeing the suffering of others while my proof is that God brings good into people's lives because I've seen it plenty. These two arguments are one in the same in my eyes. The first argument that some Athiests have are "if there is a God why is there so much suffering?" I can twist that around and say "if there wasn't a God why do millions of people continue to follow it and there are personal accounts of their faith bringing good into their lives?" This is what I mean by saying "your argument is as useless as mine" when it comes to saying that God does or doesn't exist. @Pelador- The fact that Pelador stated that there are a number of theories surrounding the Big Bang makes it all more plausible to say that humans do not have all the answers, and it's unfair to scrutinize those who do believe in God's existence. The last thing I want to add before I go to work is to Obsessivefangirl's comment. Why can't it be God? Why does everything in human life have to have proof to it? Why must you see something with your physical eyes for it to be real? Edited by Pookie, Feb 21 2014, 01:45 PM.
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Feb 21 2014, 01:43 PM Post #92 |
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My biggest question in regards to what you've said is why does god let people suffer all over the world? Why does he let people starve, die, and commit suicide? Why does he not answer their prayers? And yet he apparently answers the pettiest of prayers that other people have. "Oh, thank god. I prayed every day and passed my exam. I felt god with me." Or "Jesus helped me get through my breakup." Yet here people are, praying to god and starving to death or being tortured, raped, and abused. There is so much evil in this world, it definitely outweighs the good at times. Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Feb 21 2014, 01:44 PM.
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| Pookie | Feb 21 2014, 01:49 PM Post #93 |
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Pookie Powa!
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There you go again completely disregarding what I said. Was my prayer a petty one? Was If God doesn't exist, why do so many people say God's presence in their life brought them good? This brings us back to the free will you were talking about. The suffering is started by the greed of humanity. It's started by people. If God did not give us free will, then God would have stopped it already. You can blame that "non existent free will" that you keep saying humans do not have. Edited by Pookie, Feb 21 2014, 01:50 PM.
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Feb 21 2014, 02:02 PM Post #94 |
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Two men are undergoing open heart surgery, and both of the men's families are praying for them. One dies, the other lives. God isn't the one to blame or praise here. What saved the man who lived was his circumstances, and the doctors who performed the surgery. The other man died because the circumstances just weren't right, or the doctors didn't perform at their best or simply couldn't save him. I'm not saying that prayer doesn't calm people because it does, just as meditation does. Does god actually intervene and answer those prayers? No, I don't believe so. Prayers appear to be "answered" simply because of circumstances changing. That or the whole "time heals everything." There's not much else to it really. And that is why people around the world are constantly suffering. Circumstances, pure and simple. |
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| Pookie | Feb 21 2014, 05:49 PM Post #95 |
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Pookie Powa!
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When it's your time, it's your time. We all have our time. When it comes, there is nothing that's going to stop it. This is my answer to your open heart surgery story. You wanted to know why religion and why not Unicorns right? My final question to you is "why not religion?" Why not religion when it does good for millions of people. Why not religion when it has key principles that could still be applied today? Yes, there is bad that happens with religion I absolutely agree with that. There have been wars, death, abuse, hatred all in the name of religion, but that's not religion in itself. It's the people who abuse it. You know what the seven deadly sins are right ?
You want to know why there are so many problems today. I think there are parts of Religion that explain it. Which one of these doesn't hold true today? Lust- Can ruin marriages, can hurt partners in relationships, and there are viruses that are passed because of constantly falling into this desire Glutton- Obesity, lack of food for everyone else, etc. Greed- This can cause problems when one feels less fortunate than others. Hoarding of materials or objects, theft and robbery, especially by means of violence, trickery, or manipulation of authority are all actions that may be inspired by Greed. Sloth-This can be known as laziness. When people get lazy, things don't get done. Wrath- I think this is pretty self explanatory. When someone is angry, they can do the worst of the worst. Envy- Jealousy can cause all types of problems in relationships and real life situations. Pride- This is the thought of one being superior to another. It's probably the worst of all sins because no one is better than anyone. I am going to leave you with a final story Obessivefangirl because you ask why religion right? I'll ask again "why not religion?" Here is my story. You can take it or leave it. My boyfriend of seven years is a non-believer, and he is an amazing person. I never once took that into consideration when we got together. He grew up in a household where religion wasn't discussed at all, therefore, he didn't think much about God. He didn't see that God existed either. There was an incident about 5 years ago. I was in terrible shape as I mentioned earlier in this topic. I couldn't eat food without my entire body feeling like it was it was on fire which meant I rarely ate and lost a whole lot of weight. I was sent to a Gastroenterologist because my symptoms were severe. My boyfriend and I were around two years into our relationship at the time. He never once spoke to me about God or anything. Anyway, I went into the doctor's office, and I had to be placed under anesthesia. When I came out of it, my boyfriend called me up when I got home and told me this. "I was scared last night. I prayed for you to be okay. I don't know what or who I was praying too at the time, but I did. It made me feel better, and I somehow knew you'd be okay." I'll never forget what he told me because for a non-believer to say something like he did just further proves that God works in mysterious ways. Whether you take something from this story or not, is your thing. In the end, my main points are these: -Religion can do well for many people -I don't think that believers have more to prove than non believers -There is a place for Science and Religion in this world, therefore, I agree with both -My faith comes from personal experiences and a "feeling" -If you're okay without God or religion in your life, awesome for you -I don't agree with those who force their beliefs onto others so don't use bad apples as part of the reason you hate religion -I do agree with respecting one's beliefs and giving them their validation At the end of the day, speaking only for Christianity, we are told to love thy neighbor. With us being human, there are times where that isn't followed. Nevertheless, loving thy neighbor means to love and cherish all of what life has to give. After posting what I have in this topic, it had open my eyes to some aspects in my life that I do need to change. Edited by Pookie, Feb 21 2014, 05:58 PM.
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Feb 21 2014, 07:05 PM Post #96 |
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So can I turn this question on its head? Why religion when it has caused so much pain, suffering, and death? Why religion when its caused wars? Why religion when its discriminated against certain groups of people for hundreds of years? It's not just the people who "abuse" it. The definition of Christianity itself has changed over the years. Look back on our history, and I am willing to bet you that every single Christian who lived about five hundred years ago discriminated against gays, atheists, and other religions. Catholics used to murder protestants simply for believing something slightly different, and vice versa. People were forced to go into hiding because they were either protestant or nonreligious. Gays and adulterers were put to death. Not because "some" people were abusing the religion, but because the entire religion was against them. Do you see where I'm coming from historically? I don't see much relevance in your seven deadly sins comment because that's human morality, not Christianity specifically, so I'll pass on that one. You know I obviously have nothing against you and that I do like you. Of course this is just friendly debate (I think?) I only post in these topics because it helps me learn more and refine my own writing skills. I've matured a lot since I first started posting here, and it's due in part to me posting in these topics. Heck, I learn more every single day. Of course, we may never agree on this subject, and that's okay. All I'm trying to do here is illustrate to you that there is some logic coming from the other side. I'm not agnostic because I hate religion. Not at all. I just simply don't believe in it anymore, and I never will again. Obviously my entire family is heavily religious, so I know a lot about religion and religious thought and can respect it for what it is. Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Feb 21 2014, 07:06 PM.
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Feb 21 2014, 07:15 PM Post #97 |
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I'm not trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, I'm simply am telling you that the only safe way to look at the world is to assume that we know nothing, so we need to search to find the truth. I don't "choose" to not believe in god, because believing in God is the choice. Believing in god takes faith, which is an assumption without evidence. I'm simply assuming the default position of not accepting certainties without evidence. So there would be two options in this case, looking at the world for what it is in a provable value, or believing in something that is not proven to exist. And I never said that I don't believe in God. I said that I didn't believe in certainties without evidence, in which (if you want to think about it) the claim to the existence of a "God" falls into that category. I'm simply advocating for evidence for an outlandish claim such as the existence of a God. I can tell you right this second that there's a leprechaun standing in my living room in my apartment. You probably wouldn't accept that it's true, and I wouldn't blame you, but with the outlandish claim that I just made, I am charged with providing the observable evidence that it is true. It's the same thing with people who claim that there is a God. You can believe whatever you want, I'm just trying to present you with a tangible way of looking at the world. All of us are born not believing in God, and then at some point in time, either religion comes along, or our misinterpretations of natural processes, or a combination of both. For example, the Vikings believed that a solar eclipse was a dragon swallowing the sun, and they'd have to pray to get the sun back. We know that's not true now, and that the sun would've re-appeared regardless of what effort they made to get it back, but due to their understandable ignorance because of the time period that they lived in, that was the truth to them. They believed that the existence of sun swallowing dragon was just as real as the belief in any god is. And technically, there was originally 8 Deadly Vices ("Sins"), but two were later compacted. Vainglory was the eighth one (unwarranted boasting), which is essentially the same thing as Pride, this is the reason why it was compacted with Pride by Pope Gregory. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Feb 21 2014, 07:18 PM.
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 The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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Feb 21 2014, 07:36 PM Post #98 |
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God has no control in disaster. That is not how he works, to my understanding. He is there though and he doe's witness. He protects you when disaster happens, he helps bring light to your soul, to your spirit. He allows the people who die or mourn from disaster, know that some day they will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Right now, we live with two spiritual kingdoms, Light and Dark. Some call Earth Pre-Hell and some call Earth Pre-Heaven. But really, it is what we make of it. If you follow Jesus well enough , then you will be living in the Kingdom of Light with no fears and with pure happiness and hope and faith. But if you do not live saintly, you are tempted by darkness and you can get put into the Kingdom of Dark. When tribulation happens, it happens here on Earth and for a while it will be Hell because the Lord will be coming to save the ones who love him into the kingdom and heaven and the non-believers will face judgement. In revelations, the Messiah shows himself and the Earth is being destroyed. He shows his power and still 1/3 of the people left at that moment refuse to believe and end up burning up. In the end we are and will be saved, but we will face Hell on Earth no matter what. On an ending note, God has no control in what happens during disaster but offers his faith, will and peace to the people who believe. If I prayed to be safe everyday, I can only hope in God's will , I will stay safe. If automatically something negative happened, that isn't Gods will but it with his will, I will have hope that a better will come out of it. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Feb 21 2014, 10:30 PM Post #99 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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How is God all-powerful if he has no control in disaster? That doesn't make much sense at all. Even if he doesn't cause the disaster, that doesn't mean that he can't stop it if he is indeed all powerful. If God can create the universe as we know it in six days, I assume he'd be able to stop a hurricane from wiping out a village of innocent people. I'd imagine something like that would be child's play for him, which means he's either not all-powerful and benevolent, doesn't value human existence, doesn't pay attention to anything we do or anything that happens on Earth, or lastly, he/she simply doesn't exist. And the Bible can't be used as evidence in the God debate because it can't be verified outside of itself. What happens in the Bible is not universally observable events, therefore any claim in it, until proven as true through observational science, can only be logically looked at as false. -(Potentially offensive comment removed by Ketchupis Ultionis) Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Feb 22 2014, 05:06 PM.
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| Cal | Feb 21 2014, 11:39 PM Post #100 |
I may not deserve to live, but I will protect those in my reach with my reverse blade!
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Come on ketchup, that last piece about the leprechaun is beneath you. I don't think providing fallacies is a good way to debate when you're good enough to begin with. If over 90% of Americans believe in some type of divine intervention (which they do according to Cambridge University Atheistic Studies) then to swat away an argument with an obvious potential comparative hyperbole means you're trying to hard or you're running out of counter arguments. Just saiyan. |
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Feb 22 2014, 01:06 AM Post #101 |
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To a nonbeliever, the existence of the Christian god is just about as realistic as a leprechaun, so I can understand why she uses that example. To be fair. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Feb 22 2014, 01:46 AM Post #102 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I can see why my comment came off as demeaning, but I really wasn't trying to be, and I do apologize if I've seriously offended anyone. I removed the comment out of potential for people to take it in the same context that you did. I'm simply making a comparison by presenting an example that is consistent with the argument that we've been having. The point that I'm simply trying to make is that there's no more evidence for leprechauns in my living room than there is for the existence of God, or God's will. Because to folks who prefer to have evidence for things existing over faith, one is just as likely to exist as the other is. Or in this context, I could opt say "Unicorns" because that's actually the title of the thread, is it not? I'm simply arguing for the consistency in belief of two entirely different things, both of which have the same amount of evidence to support both of them, yet both are considered to have different likelihoods of existing. It all depends on what the more popular appeal is. If you read my last few posts, you'd see that I mentioned a leprechaun before in this debate, so my previous post wasn't simply out of the blue. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Feb 22 2014, 01:51 AM.
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| Tensa Zangetsu | Feb 22 2014, 12:43 PM Post #103 |
Catch me if you can!
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Because God wants to test our faith. The suffering we receive in this world is either a punishment for our evil deeds, or because God wants to test our faith further. Secondly, He doesn't control people's actions as he's given us free will. It is the people themselves who are responsible for crimes, suffering, starving, suicide etc. as you just said. |
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| + Pelador | Feb 22 2014, 01:02 PM Post #104 |
Crazy Awesome Legend
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I still don't understand the testing stuff. He knows everything, why bother? |
 http://www.youtube.com/user/jonjits | |
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| Tensa Zangetsu | Feb 22 2014, 01:06 PM Post #105 |
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Catch me if you can!
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Because he wants us to know how we lived this life. |
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