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Why Religion? Why Not Unicorns?
Topic Started: Feb 4 2014, 03:01 AM (5,468 Views)
Pookie
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@Obsessive- I respect your opinion too, but I want to ask you something about what you said when it comes to facts. You said believers have more to prove than non believers. Why is that ?

Your only perspective on those "facts" are from reading it from countless books. We all know WW2 existed right? We weren't there, but we know it happened. Most of us weren't alive to have experienced it. However, why is it that there are a number of versions of how it happened and what happened during it? I've read a number of books upon it, and the experiences of that war were different for whoever was there at the time. You could read a Jewish man's account of what happened and compare it to an American man's account. They both know WW2 happened, yet have two completely different experiences. You're probably asking what does that have to do with anything?

Perhaps that is the same answer as to why there are different religions. Perhaps there were visual accounts of a a higher being, but over time those stories got scattered into different beliefs. Unless you studied it yourself, you can only go by off of what someone else wrote or studied.

Here are reasons why I believe God exists without using the bible as a reference.

-We know that love exists by a feeling right? I don't care what science has to say on this matter because I don't study science. I don't have a BRAIN PET scan with me. If love can exist by us feeling it, why can't it be the same for God? Why do I have to see God to believe it ?

-The positive that I see when I go to a Church (I haven't been there in awhile, but I still remember the experience) or when I pass by one. I see people giving hand outs, shaking each other's hands, saying hello, smiling, crying in relief, more relieved, laughing, and singing.

-The homeless people I see when I go to the big cities around here. When I give them some spare change or some money, they say "God Bless You." Despite ALL OF THEIR TERRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES, they continue to believe that God will help them, and they do it with a SMILE/NOD.

-It withstood the test of time as mentioned before. Despite all of the scientific advances that man has made, there are millions of people out there that still believe God exists.
....The belief that the world was flat hasn't
....The belief that California was an Island hasn't
....The belief that Earth was the center of the universe hasn't

Edit:

At the end of the day, when it's all said and done, the main reason some Atheists are bugged by this God notion is probably because they truly don't know themselves. There is no possible way they can know without a shadow of a doubt. They can only speculate, they can only go off of what they read or studied from other people's accounts, and they will only know when they die if their lack of faith was justified.

I'd rather go off of a gut instinct or a feeling than an educated guess.


Edited by Pookie, Feb 20 2014, 03:48 AM.
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Basically, believers have more to prove because they are the ones claiming that an omniscient being exists in the first place.

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Perhaps that is the same answer as to why there are different religions. Perhaps there were visual accounts of a a higher being, but over time those stories got scattered into different beliefs. Unless you studied it yourself, you can only go by off of what someone else wrote or studied.

That's exactly it. Religion has branched out in so many different directions, it's insane. Which is exactly why religion is so flawed. There are thousands of religious beliefs, each of them claiming that there is only one correct religion and that all of the others are wrong. In the past, Christians have even fought amongst themselves and killed each other because their beliefs were slightly different.

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Here are reasons why I believe God exists without using the bible as a reference.

-We know that love exists by a feeling right? I don't care what science has to say on this matter because I don't study science. I don't have a BRAIN PET scan with me. If love can exist by us feeling it, why can't it be the same for God? Why do I have to see God to believe it ?

-The positive that I see when I go to a Church (I haven't been there in awhile, but I still remember the experience) or when I pass by one. I see people giving hand outs, shaking each other's hands, saying hello, smiling, crying in relief, more relieved, laughing, and singing.

-The homeless people I see when I go to the big cities around here. When I give them some spare change or some money, they say "God Bless You." Despite ALL OF THEIR TERRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES, they continue to believe that God will help them, and they do it with a SMILE/NOD.

You don't have to see God to believe it, but if I'm going to believe in something, there has to be some reason to believe in it. I have never seen a god, nor have I seen one do anything or felt anything that would make me believe in one.

You may see that when you go to church, but the church itself has always been very corrupt. When I step in some churches, I see hypocrisy, lies presented as truth, bigotry, and ignorance. Of course, not all churches are the same, and I understand and accept that.

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-It withstood the test of time as mentioned before. Despite all of the scientific advances that man has made, there are millions of people out there that still believe God exists.
....The belief that the world was flat hasn't
....The belief that California was an Island hasn't
....The belief that Earth was the center of the universe hasn't

It has withstood the test of time because religion has always been ingrained in our culture. Those other beliefs aren't even part of our culture. That is the difference. I could go into detail about this, but I'd rather not unless you want me to. :p

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At the end of the day, when it's all said and done, the main reason some Atheists are bugged by this God notion is probably because they truly don't know themselves. There is no possible way they can know without a shadow of a doubt. They can only speculate, they can only go off of what they read or studied from other people's accounts, and they will only know when they die if their lack of faith was justified.

I'd rather go off of a gut instinct or a feeling than an educated guess.

Yeah, pretty much. I can personally say without a doubt that I do not believe that Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and quite a few other religions are correct; however, I cannot disprove a deity completely, and I won't even try to because at the end of the day I don't care. What I do care about is arguing against religious beliefs that hurt or discriminate against others and educating people. That is why I enjoy religious debate, typically.
Edited by Doggo Champion 2k17, Feb 20 2014, 03:55 AM.
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You don't have to see God to believe it, but if I'm going to believe in something, there has to be some reason to believe in it. I have never seen a god, nor have I seen one do anything or felt anything that would make me believe in one.

You may see that when you go to church, but the church itself has always been very corrupt. When I step in some churches, I see hypocrisy, lies presented as truth, bigotry, and ignorance. Of course, not all churches are the same, and I understand and accept that.


A true Church wouldn't be corrupt. It is the people that make it corrupt. It's why I said I don't believe in priests for the most part. Humans aren't perfect and so you see the bad side unfortunately. If a true Christian is supposed to love and be accepting, as Messiah was saying, then what does "bad churches" have to do with the true beliefs of Christianity?

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It has withstood the test of time because religion has always been ingrained in our culture. Those other beliefs aren't even part of our culture. That is the difference. I could go into detail about this, but I'd rather not unless you want me to. :p


It apparently wasn't ingrained in our culture because if it was, then you would have thought differently. You'd believe it like I do. You would have been forced to believe a certain way that you aren't believing now. Since the beginning of time, humans have believed in higher beings. The Egyptians were beyond intelligent, yet they believe in such. What makes this society/time any different?

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Yeah, pretty much. I can personally say without a doubt that I do not believe that Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and quite a few other religions are correct; however, I cannot disprove a deity completely, and I won't even try to because at the end of the day I don't care. What I do care about is arguing against religious beliefs that hurt or discriminate against others and educating people. That is why I enjoy religious debate, typically.


Is it Christianity you don't agree with or is it the people that have represented it? I mean I don't know if you watched the video I posted about the wife swap episode, but a true Christian believes in loving everyone. It states it in the bible (despite it having many flaws.) If they aren't doing that, they aren't a true Christian and so your dislike for religions is based off of bad people.

Edit:

From personal experience, I have had a hard time "loving" all the time because I am human. Every human has emotions. I am going to get mad. I am going to question things like you are doing, but the major difference is when I actually decide to act like a "true" Christian, I feel better about myself. I see how it can change someone's life for the better. I think this is what most religious folks want some Atheists to understand.
Edited by Pookie, Feb 20 2014, 04:17 AM.
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It apparently wasn't ingrained in our culture because if it was, then you would have thought differently. You'd believe it like I do. You would have been forced to believe a certain way that you aren't believing now. Since the beginning of time, humans have believed in higher beings. The Egyptians were beyond intelligent, yet they believe in such. What makes this society/time any different?

I don't get what you're saying exactly, so let me try to explain my point.

I'll use patriarchy as an example. Patriarchy has, for quite a long time, been ingrained in our culture. Men have long been the breadwinners, the protectors, and women have been expected to stay at home and act as emotional support. The patriarchy has been present in homes, in the workplace, and even in the government. Only recently have we begun to take strides away from patriarchy. This is both a societal and cultural phenomenon.

Just because our culture is drenched in patriarchy doesn't mean that I believe it or support it because I clearly don't. Homosexuality is another example. Heterosexuality is the obvious norm, and our culture revolves around it. For the longest time, we never saw gays in the media. Does that mean that I agree with the way our culture has revolved around heterosexuality? No way.

Religion has always been a part of society because humans are prone to make up stories and create reasons for what they don't understand. Back when humans didn't understand lightning or thunder storms, they chalked it up to Zeus. People in the past have worshiped gods for that feeling of safety and knowing. They fear the afterlife, so they believe in god. It has been this way for thousands of years.

You are right in saying that our culture forced me to believe in Christianity. Because of the way I was raised, I was a Christian. I was surrounded by Christianity and knew nothing else. Only when I stepped outside of that bubble and explored the world around me did I realize that I didn't truly believe in it at all.

Does that make more sense?

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Is it Christianity you don't agree with or is it the people that have represented it? I mean I don't know if you watched the video I posted about the wife swap episode, but a true Christian believes in loving everyone. It states it in the bible (despite it having many flaws.) If they aren't doing that, they aren't a true Christian and so your dislike for religions is based off of bad people.

My entire family and plenty of my friends are good, loving, Christian people, so I don't think that has anything to do with it. I've simply had different life experiences and exposures than they have. I know that they are ignorant when it comes to some things just as I am, but I accept them for who they are and for their beliefs.
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I don't get what you're saying exactly, so let me try to explain my point.

I'll use patriarchy as an example. Patriarchy has, for quite a long time, been ingrained in our culture. Men have long been the breadwinners, the protectors, and women have been expected to stay at home and act as emotional support. The patriarchy has been present in homes, in the workplace, and even in the government. Only recently have we begun to take strides away from patriarchy. This is both a societal and cultural phenomenon.

Just because our culture is drenched in patriarchy doesn't mean that I believe it or support it because I clearly don't. Homosexuality is another example. Heterosexuality is the obvious norm, and our culture revolves around it. For the longest time, we never saw gays in the media. Does that mean that I agree with the way our culture has revolved around heterosexuality? No way.

Religion has always been a part of society because humans are prone to make up stories and create reasons for what they don't understand. Back when humans didn't understand lightning or thunder storms, they chalked it up to Zeus. People in the past have worshiped gods for that feeling of safety and knowing. They fear the afterlife, so they believe in god. It has been this way for thousands of years.


I understand what you are saying. You're saying that you're surrounded by it. We are surrounded by those beliefs of patriarchy and dislike for homosexuality. I got what you meant in your first explanation. What I meant was that you were still able to think on your own and come up with your own beliefs of the world despite the common acceptances in your environment.

I mean that's a good thing. I can respect why you decided to stray away from religion. You make valid points about the corruption and bigotry. I never liked it either because it is a bad representation of Christianity.

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Religion has always been a part of society because humans are prone to make up stories and create reasons for what they don't understand.


You're right about that as far as humans trying to gain understanding, but within that text, I only see more proof. This statement is something I've tried using in many religious debates, yet evolution is always the response. If humans are prone to making up stories and creating reasons for what they don't understand, isn't that proof in itself that there is something more to what meets the eye? Why humans? Why not Dolphins or Dogs?

There are millions of species of animals around the world, yet humans are the only ones fascinated by "what's beyond." While animals are struggling to survive on a daily basis, humans have complex thoughts about the world.

Edit: I'm going to get back on topic. I get why you're not sold on religion. It makes sense because of how humans can abuse it and that there are many. The main concensus of any religion is the idea of there being someone higher (or someones.) Nevertheless, the idea of there being a God is what I'm arguing for. I was raised as a Christian, but made my own choice in staying with it because of how it makes me feel. I like the true principles behind it.





Edited by Pookie, Feb 20 2014, 04:48 AM.
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Do you think there's any circumstance that could make you start to question your faith? Some people travel the world and witness so much suffering and poverty that they question how their gods could allow this to happen to the people they supposedly love. Others just stop getting any fulfillment from their faith. You know like believing in Jesus is meant to feel good but everything involved just makes them feel bored or like s***.



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Pookie
Feb 20 2014, 03:35 AM
-It withstood the test of time as mentioned before. Despite all of the scientific advances that man has made, there are millions of people out there that still believe God exists.
....The belief that the world was flat hasn't
....The belief that California was an Island hasn't
....The belief that Earth was the center of the universe hasn't
I have a problem with this. The examples you have given are very specific, whereas 'belief in God' is a very broad subject. Yes, religion and the belief in God has stood the time, but so has a belief in Science, Geography etc. There are many specific examples of religion that haven't stood the test of time. A lot of the older religions have become extinct i.e. Roman and Greek, Egyptian, Mayan. I mean, the Christian religion itself is founded on a particular part of religion not standing the test of time: the Old Testament making way for the New Testament.
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Feb 19 2014, 09:32 PM
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Feb 19 2014, 11:41 AM
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Feb 18 2014, 06:36 PM
The known universe is about thirteen and a half billion light years out, and at the level of subatomic particles in. This is what we can see and understand using current instruments and/or math. The known universe may have a beginning and an end, but the infinite universe does not, cannot. You can never make nothing out of something; it just moves.
There should be something that caused the beginning. And this cause should have another cause that caused it to happen.

The chain goes on and on, until you reach a cause that has no beginning. This is exactly the Creator.

And the same goes for the origin of life. Life can't simply come out of non living things. Someone should have created it
Also God would need a cause. Our understanding of cause and effect is not complete. Its like this it is impossible to go faster than the speed of light no matter what but our common sense says in the non quantum world (the larger scale of the world) says if you were standing on a train going at the speed of light and you walked from one end of the train to the other, then wouldn't you be going faster than the speed of light relative to the ground It may seem like should happen that way. The problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't always work the way that it seems like it should be.
Exactly. The rules have to apply to the universe, but it doesn't have to apply to God because God is a supernatural being.

There has to be something breaking the rules of science. Its makes more sense that its God, than the universe itself.
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I have a problem with this. The examples you have given are very specific, whereas 'belief in God' is a very broad subject. Yes, religion and the belief in God has stood the time, but so has a belief in Science, Geography etc. There are many specific examples of religion that haven't stood the test of time. A lot of the older religions have become extinct i.e. Roman and Greek, Egyptian, Mayan. I mean, the Christian religion itself is founded on a particular part of religion not standing the test of time: the Old Testament making way for the New Testament.


I was tired last night when I wrote some of those examples. I apologize for that. It was basically me saying that Religion/God has stood the test of time for a reason whereas other beliefs have not. Science is still around and it will always be. I think Science is a wonderful thing, but my main point was that beliefs are constantly changing, but the belief of God has not for thousands of years.

Regardless of the Old Testament vs. New Testament, the belief of God still exists. The difference between the Old Testament and New Testament has a reasoning. The Old Testament was written before Christ. When we are speaking about Christianity, the New Testament was written because of Jesus and was supposed to be written by those who encountered him. It is why it changed.


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Feb 20 2014, 04:56 AM
Do you think there's any circumstance that could make you start to question your faith? Some people travel the world and witness so much suffering and poverty that they question how their gods could allow this to happen to the people they supposedly love. Others just stop getting any fulfillment from their faith. You know like believing in Jesus is meant to feel good but everything involved just makes them feel bored or like s***.


No, there isn't any circumstance that would make me start to question my faith because I have seen suffering and poverty firsthand. I go to inner cities all the time around here. I studied Genocide in its entirety when I was in University. I saw plenty of pictures and videos of death to know what is going on in the world. They were horrible to watch. However, that wasn't caused by God. If you think about the Khmer Rogue and the Cambodian Genocide, that was caused by greed and the belief that one race is superior to another.

The reason I have my faith is because I believe that suffering is caused by humanity and not by God. God gave us free will. With that said, I see life as a test of character.

Do you know Mother Teresa? She went around the world helping everyone. She who won the Nobel Piece Prize for the contributions she made to the world, yet she was a Christian. She loved everyone and anyone regardless of their faith. It didn't matter what kind of person you were. She helped you.

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Its mission was to care for, in her own words, "the hungry, the naked, the homeless, the crippled, the blind, the lepers, all those people who feel unwanted, unloved, uncared for throughout society, people that have become a burden to the society and are shunned by everyone."

It began as a small order with 13 members in Calcutta; by 1997 it had grown to more than 4,000 sisters running orphanages, AIDS hospices and charity centres worldwide, and caring for refugees, the blind, disabled, aged, alcoholics, the poor and homeless, and victims of floods, epidemics, and famine.[33]

In 1952 Mother Teresa opened the first Home for the Dying in space made available by the city of Calcutta (Kolkata). With the help of Indian officials she converted an abandoned Hindu temple into the Kalighat Home for the Dying, a free hospice for the poor. She renamed it Kalighat, the Home of the Pure Heart (Nirmal Hriday).[34] Those brought to the home received medical attention and were afforded the opportunity to die with dignity, according to the rituals of their faith; Muslims were read the Quran, Hindus received water from the Ganges, and Catholics received the Last Rites.[35] "A beautiful death," she said, "is for people who lived like animals to die like angels—loved and wanted."[35]
Edited by Pookie, Feb 20 2014, 06:40 PM.
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There are letters written by Mother Theresa where she revealed that she actually lost her faith years ago.


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I saw the article about her writing letters about her questioning faith and her belief in God, but that doesn't mean she lost her faith. She requested the letters to be burned after she died which the Church did not do because they wanted to show how life is a journey, and it's okay to question your faith. I wrote a biography about her too.

Nevertheless, everything she did was based on the belief that there was a God.

This was her quote that she wrote shortly before she died.

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"Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear. The tongue moves but does not speak.”


She was scared as most humans were. She was scared of the unknown. Everything she did though was because she believed that God was in her and had called her to help those in need. This is my argument as to how Religion is a positive influence.

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“I am told God lives in me — and yet the reality of darkness and coldness and emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul,” she wrote at one point. “I want God with all the power of my soul — and yet between us there is terrible separation.” On another occasion she wrote: “I feel just that terrible pain of loss, of God not wanting me, of God not being God, of God not really existing.”


Edited by Pookie, Feb 20 2014, 06:52 PM.
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Sounds pretty clear to me that her faith was lost.


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It seems to me that she is a normal human, and she did a lot of good off a religion that is deemed so bad or negative by some people on this forum.
Edited by Pookie, Feb 20 2014, 06:57 PM.
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Yeah I'd agree with that.


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Tensa Zangetsu
Feb 20 2014, 11:40 AM
Zenet
Feb 19 2014, 09:32 PM
Tensa Zangetsu
Feb 19 2014, 11:41 AM
Zenet
Feb 18 2014, 06:36 PM
The known universe is about thirteen and a half billion light years out, and at the level of subatomic particles in. This is what we can see and understand using current instruments and/or math. The known universe may have a beginning and an end, but the infinite universe does not, cannot. You can never make nothing out of something; it just moves.
There should be something that caused the beginning. And this cause should have another cause that caused it to happen.

The chain goes on and on, until you reach a cause that has no beginning. This is exactly the Creator.

And the same goes for the origin of life. Life can't simply come out of non living things. Someone should have created it
Also God would need a cause. Our understanding of cause and effect is not complete. Its like this it is impossible to go faster than the speed of light no matter what but our common sense says in the non quantum world (the larger scale of the world) says if you were standing on a train going at the speed of light and you walked from one end of the train to the other, then wouldn't you be going faster than the speed of light relative to the ground It may seem like should happen that way. The problem with quantum physics is that it doesn't always work the way that it seems like it should be.
Exactly. The rules have to apply to the universe, but it doesn't have to apply to God because God is a supernatural being.

There has to be something breaking the rules of science. Its makes more sense that its God, than the universe itself.
I do not understand why there must be a rule breaker among a universe with defined rules. But how about this for a possibility: what we understand to be gods and goddesses are in fact evolved forms of life? Let us take the Abrahamic God for instance: the Big Bag could just be a byproduct of its birth into existence. We can all agree that if God exists as a concious being that its birth would be a mighty release of energy, right?
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