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How do you interpret Goku's "These huge muscles kill my speed"?
They nullify most of the speed boost I should have received with the power-up and therefore make me disproportionately slow 3 (60%)
They literally make me slower than I was before powering up, even though I'm stronger now 2 (40%)
Total Votes: 5
How do you think USSj really works?; in the speed department
Topic Started: Jan 19 2014, 05:06 PM (510 Views)
Xfing
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It's something that has been bothering me... how is it possible that a form that makes you 2-3x as strong compared to ASSj due to increasing your powerlevel (somewhat forcibly), could actually make you slower than you were before? In the Dragonball series, you have two primary attributes as a fighter: your power and your speed - both of which are governed collectively by your so-called "powerlevel". A person with the power of 1000 is 2x stronger and 2x faster than a person with the PL of 500, and that's how it's always been.

That's why it's weird in my opinion: how come someone with a power of say, 4 billion can be slower than someone with the power of 2 billion? Is growing some muscles really gonna slow you down SO much that a two-fold increase in overall capabilities would be completely offset, and even reversed?

As I understand it, USSj makes you disproportionately slow, not actually slower. That would simply make no sense. I know that it's just an opinion, but it doesn't contradict what happened in the manga, as the enemy fought in the previous form was faster anyway , so there was no clear way to tell whether USSj was actually slower than ASSj, or just as slow.

In my opinion, at the same Base powerlevel this is how it goes:

SSj:
Power: 50 Speed: 50
ASSj:
Power: 100 Speed: 90
USSj:
Power: 200 Speed: anywhere from 90 to 125
FPSSj:
Power: 200 Speed: 200

I know that some of you will insist that USSj makes you literally slower, but truth be told, it doesn't need to and it would still keep its disadvantages. Disproportionate speed is just as bad as actually lower speed. If you couldn't catch someone you were slower with in ASSj, you won't be able to do it in USSj either. But you don't need to actually get even slower in USSj in order for that to hold true. So, what do you think about this? Do you think my reasoning has any merit to it?
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SSJ
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Becoming bulkier really does slow you down dramatically.

SSJ/FPSSJ:
Power 50, Speed 50

SSJ Gr2:
Power 75, Speed 60

SSJ Gr 3:
Power 100, Speed 25


SSJ Gr 2 is the only form in which actually provides a slight increase. We know that SSJ Gr 3 slows you down based on Trunks vs Cell. Trunks was too slow to touch Cell, despite having a good power advantage. His transformation had actually caused him to become slower than Super Saiyan. Consider 50% Goku when he sparred with Cell. This was the same Cell that Trunks fought, but Goku was able to keep up, and hit him. Not to mention 50% Goku should be weaker than Trunks, but he still showed superior speed.
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+ Majin Vegeta
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Power and speed doesn't scale exactly linearly with power level, it does scale along with it but not linearly if that was the case SSJ4 Goku would move at thousands of times FTL, which isn't the case, so its possible that USSJ increase you're power so much, and the cost of this is decreasing speed lest say something with numbers:
Normal shape:
Power-100
Spped-100
USSJ:
Power-200
Speed-50
At least that's how I view it.
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Hearts
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Its the physical body that is slowing them down, they bulk of their physical body to gain more strength, but by bulking up they lose speed, same thing would happen if they did the opposite.. At the Cell Games, their body hit their limit, the body couldnt gain more muscles without growing bigger
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Xfing
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SuperSaiyan2
Jan 19 2014, 05:12 PM
Becoming bulkier really does slow you down dramatically.

SSJ/FPSSJ:
Power 50, Speed 50

SSJ Gr2:
Power 75, Speed 60

SSJ Gr 3:
Power 100, Speed 25


SSJ Gr 2 is the only form in which actually provides a slight increase. We know that SSJ Gr 3 slows you down based on Trunks vs Cell. Trunks was too slow to touch Cell, despite having a good power advantage. His transformation had actually caused him to become slower than Super Saiyan. Consider 50% Goku when he sparred with Cell. This was the same Cell that Trunks fought, but Goku was able to keep up, and hit him. Not to mention 50% Goku should be weaker than Trunks, but he still showed superior speed.
I totally don't get why you equal the FPSj mutliplier with regular SSj, when FPSSj has clearly been shown to be able to power up, while regular SSj hasn't. But that's another topic.

During the first sparring, you're assuming that Goku started out at 50% relaxed. Which isn't the case, because his 50% is what we saw after a while of his powering up at Karin's tower. Everyone assumes Goku started out at 50%, it's repeated like a mantra and no one puts much thought to it. But there isn't anything that really hints that was the case. I woudn't imagine Goku ran around at 50% all the time. He wasn't shown powering up for the sparring either. Therefore I'm inclined to think that something like 33% would actually make more sense. So:

FP Cell: Power: 180 Speed: 180
ASSj Trunks: Power: 95 Speed 85,5
USSj Trunks: Power: 237,5 Speed 128,25 (or even 85,5, doesn't matter here, still slower).

But:

FPSSj Goku, relaxed: Power: 178 Speed: 178
FPSSj Goku, Full: Power: 534 Speed 534
Cell, powered up: Power: 540 Speed 540


Besides, what you're saying about Grade 2 increasing your power a bit while Grade 3 decreasing it to half its initial value even though making you stronger still just defies logic to me. Vegeta ASSj was still slower than Perfect Cell. Therefore I can't buy it.
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Hearts
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Why wouldnt Vegeta use the USSJ form against Perfect Cell then? He tried ASSJ and it was too weak, he could have gone to USSJ because it was clearly shown to be stronger than initial Perfect Cell..
USSJ is slower than ASSJ , infact, i put it something like this, note tho, its not 100% correct, just a quick draft


SSJ/FPSSJ:

Power = 50
Speed = 50

ASSJ:

Power = 75
Speed = 40

USSJ:

Power = 100
Speed = 20
Edited by Hearts, Jan 19 2014, 05:34 PM.
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It not so much "makes you slower" as much as it makes it harder to move around because of your muscle mass. I assume this is more of a flexibility issue.

For example, Trunks is going to be faster due to his ki amount increasing, but not faster in close-quarters fighting because the dimensions of his body are an actual inhibitor. In addition to this, people with muscle are built for power, not speed.

Also you need to compare this to real life. For example, people who require speed for the sport they're in are thinner built than someone like an American football linebacker, who doesn't need speed but power.
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Hearts
Jan 19 2014, 05:33 PM
Why wouldnt Vegeta use the USSJ form against Perfect Cell then? He tried ASSJ and it was too weak, he could have gone to USSJ because it was clearly shown to be stronger than initial Perfect Cell..
Because ASSJ is. Still. Slower. Than. Cell.

USSj doesn't need to make it slower to make it useless! Enough that it doesn't make you any faster, you'd still be slower than Cell. Is that so hard to grasp? Goku said himself "what good is such great power if I can't even hit the guy".

Assj: Power 100: Speed 90
USSj: Power 200: Speed 90
Cell: Power 175 Speed: 175

You still can't hit Cell. You still lose. That's why Vegeta didn't bother.
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