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how high do you think goku could have done kaioken by the buu saga
Topic Started: Jan 18 2014, 07:16 PM (905 Views)
Canis Latrans Jan 18 2014, 07:16 PM Post #1
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 I think 4333 due to the differancein his frezia saga levels

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wolfie Jan 18 2014, 07:38 PM Post #2
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Im a firm believer of two things one is teue not sure which

#1 evrey one has their own unique limit for ken, one that you cant break, so 20 is his limit
#2 the higher the number from the multiplier the worse tear
So goku could do x20 then, may not even be able to do 2 now
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans Jan 18 2014, 07:45 PM Post #3
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 I would assume 30 times at most. Goku had to recieve a 33 times increase just to barely take himself to a level twice as high as he was capable of before. If it was 4,333 times like you seem to think it is, why the heck would even SSJ3 be necessary?
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+ Pyrus Jan 18 2014, 08:49 PM Post #4
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 I'd say 20x was the limit for it. No real rhyme or reason.
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EMIYA Jan 18 2014, 09:08 PM Post #5
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 there's never really implied to be a gap and I'm sure had Goku trained himself he could have easily have gone up many levels and controlled his body in such a way. However the SSJ forms just start eclipse it.

SSJ alone had a 30x difference over the KK20 with none of the drawbacks the latter had. By the time SSJ3 comes into play I'm sure its a lot easier just going SSJ3 then trying to pump up to Kaioken X400, an effort that was potentially possible ultimately ends up being unnecessary when there are just other ways to achieve such a high level of power without the risk of...well...blowing your brains out everywhere by accident by sheer stress.
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* Ketchup Revenge Jan 18 2014, 09:08 PM Post #6
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

 I actually agree with KP.

The issue isn't so much about how strong Goku gets, and more about how resilient his base body is. The resilience of Goku's base body had leveled out when he reached Super Saiyan. We know this because Saiyans no longer get serious zenkai after Super Saiyan is reached. In essence, Goku's physical body had reached a plateau, and this is the reason why it developed a transformation to compensate for the limit that his body had reached biologically.

In addition to this, Kaioken is an uprising of ki, while Super Saiyan is a transformation that allows you to effectively sustain and use that uprising of ki.
Since Goku's body had plateaued, there's no reason to believe he could use anything higher than 20x Kaioken. It would be similar to burning a light-bulb. You can increase the power to it and make it burn brighter, but sooner or later it will reach its limit, and it will get as bright as it will ever get.
And the only way to make it even brighter would be to switch the old light bulb out (eg Goku's base body) for a new one with a higher output (eg. Goku's Super Saiyan).

Also, despite the filler, I really don't believe that he could use Kaioken while in Super Saiyan. The form already causes strain on the user, and Kaioken itself is dangerous to someone without strain.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jan 19 2014, 03:24 AM.
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Canis Latrans Jan 18 2014, 11:42 PM Post #7
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 I change my mind I must have made a mistake in the caculations but my new answer is 160 for this

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TheGmGoken Jan 18 2014, 11:44 PM Post #8
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GreatRaditzMan12
Jan 18 2014, 11:42 PM
I change my mind I must have made a mistake in the caculations but my new answer is 160 for this
I think 20x is good enough. Maybe 40x. I doubt Goku's base improved that much. Plus Kaioken brings a lot of stress.

8,000 - 3,000,000 only led Goku from 4x to 20x. That's a 16x increase.
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans Jan 19 2014, 12:04 AM Post #9
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TheGmGoken
Jan 18 2014, 11:44 PM
GreatRaditzMan12
Jan 18 2014, 11:42 PM
I change my mind I must have made a mistake in the caculations but my new answer is 160 for this
I think 20x is good enough. Maybe 40x. I doubt Goku's base improved that much. Plus Kaioken brings a lot of stress.

8,000 - 3,000,000 only led Goku from 4x to 20x. That's a 16x increase.
That's not even a 16 times increase. That's a 5 times increase. It added 16 to the multiplier though.
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TheGmGoken Jan 19 2014, 12:13 AM Post #10
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ThePrinceOfSaiyajins
Jan 19 2014, 12:04 AM
TheGmGoken
Jan 18 2014, 11:44 PM
GreatRaditzMan12
Jan 18 2014, 11:42 PM
I change my mind I must have made a mistake in the caculations but my new answer is 160 for this
I think 20x is good enough. Maybe 40x. I doubt Goku's base improved that much. Plus Kaioken brings a lot of stress.

8,000 - 3,000,000 only led Goku from 4x to 20x. That's a 16x increase.
That's not even a 16 times increase. That's a 5 times increase. It added 16 to the multiplier though.
Opps. Forgot that Kaioken wasn't addition. Yea 5x increase. That's even less. I doubt Goku made that much of a gain ever again.
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+ Solid Snake Jan 19 2014, 12:18 AM Post #11
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Ketchupis Ultionis
Jan 18 2014, 09:08 PM
I actually agree with KP.

The issue isn't so much about how strong Goku gets, and more about how resilient his base body is. The resilience of Goku's base body had leveled out when he reached Super Saiyan. We know this because Saiyans no longer get serious zenkai after Super Saiyan is reached. In essence, Goku's physical body had reached a plateau, and this is the reason why it developed a transformation to compensate for the limit that his body had reached biologically.

In addition to this, Kaioken is an uprising of ki, while Super Saiyan is a transformation that allows you to effectively sustain and use that uprising of ki.
Since Goku's body had plateaued, there's no reason to believe he could use anything higher than 20x Kaioken. It would be similar to burning a light-bulb. You can increase the power to it and make it burn brighter, but sooner or later it will reach its limit, and it will get as bright as it will ever get.
And the only way to make it even brighter would be to switch the old light out (eg Goku's base body) for a new one with a higher output (eg. Goku's Super Saiyan).

Also, despite the filler, I really don't believe that he could use Kaioken while in Super Saiyan. The form already causes strain on the user, and Kaioken itself is dangerous to someone without strain.
The last -- part not trying to go against you but Goku uses the MSSJ state doesn't he? So the former strain that the SSJ had would not be as present in the MSSJ right?

Also Goku's physical limit wasn't truly reach until the end of Z, with his base being even stronger compared to 10 years ago.

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Hearts Jan 19 2014, 01:46 AM Post #12
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 At the Cell games his body hit his limit, his body couldnt get any stronger than that, so if Saiyan saga Goku could do 3x Kaioken, Frieza saga could do 10x, then i would assume that Goku could do maybe 30x by the time Cell games came along.. He could ofcourse force it up to 50x for small bursts like he did 4x in saiyan saga and 20x in Frieza saga but i think thats it
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* Ketchup Revenge Jan 19 2014, 03:25 AM Post #13
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Jan 19 2014, 12:18 AM
Ketchupis Ultionis
Jan 18 2014, 09:08 PM
I actually agree with KP.

The issue isn't so much about how strong Goku gets, and more about how resilient his base body is. The resilience of Goku's base body had leveled out when he reached Super Saiyan. We know this because Saiyans no longer get serious zenkai after Super Saiyan is reached. In essence, Goku's physical body had reached a plateau, and this is the reason why it developed a transformation to compensate for the limit that his body had reached biologically.

In addition to this, Kaioken is an uprising of ki, while Super Saiyan is a transformation that allows you to effectively sustain and use that uprising of ki.
Since Goku's body had plateaued, there's no reason to believe he could use anything higher than 20x Kaioken. It would be similar to burning a light-bulb. You can increase the power to it and make it burn brighter, but sooner or later it will reach its limit, and it will get as bright as it will ever get.
And the only way to make it even brighter would be to switch the old light out (eg Goku's base body) for a new one with a higher output (eg. Goku's Super Saiyan).

Also, despite the filler, I really don't believe that he could use Kaioken while in Super Saiyan. The form already causes strain on the user, and Kaioken itself is dangerous to someone without strain.
The last -- part not trying to go against you but Goku uses the MSSJ state doesn't he? So the former strain that the SSJ had would not be as present in the MSSJ right?

Also Goku's physical limit wasn't truly reach until the end of Z, with his base being even stronger compared to 10 years ago.

I agree, but the strain still exists. That's the downside of all Super Saiyan forms, including mastered.

However, we also need to consider that bodily limits and ki limits are not the same thing. He could increase his ki through training, but his physical body itself was no longer gaining, or was only gaining minimal amounts.

This is the one reason why I don't believe in multipliers. Super Saiyan can obviously be increased independently from base because we almost always see Saiyans training in Super Saiyan after they reach it.

Goku perceived that he'd reached his absolute limit in MSSj because he had no idea that other levels existed beyond that.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jan 19 2014, 03:38 AM.
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+ Solid Snake Jan 19 2014, 05:52 AM Post #14
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 True, true... I was gonna say that Goku at the 28th didn't power up at all but then remembered that Piccolo didn't power up against Gero, well he did but it was very discreet.
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