What's your stance on Base Saiyans (Boo Saga) vs. Freeza

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What's your stance on Base Saiyans (Boo Saga) vs. Freeza
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 16 2014, 06:12 PM (4,701 Views)
Vertical	Jan 17 2014, 04:42 AM Post #106
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	Kaboom Jan 17 2014, 04:31 AM it's quite nice that Battle of Gods has come along and dropped a big solid heaping helping of backup for it. If only. Both interpretations are valid depending on the scope of what you recognize as "canon", and your opinion on various, multiple-interpretation events. Why hate on one or the other?
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bloodstained euphy	Jan 17 2014, 05:00 AM Post #107
Posts: 842 Group: Member Member #7,357 Joined: February 25, 2012 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime Dragonball Z, Code Geas, Dinosaur King, Sword Art Online, One Punch Man, Danganronpa What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox	I think that the base Z-fighter saiyans skyrocketed past Frieza, heck even Cooler(I don't believe in Cooler hax) while training for the Cell Games.



wolfie	Jan 17 2014, 05:52 AM Post #108
Posts: 159 Group: Member Member #10,702 Joined: January 8, 2014 Gender Male	Kamikaze Pyro Jan 17 2014, 02:06 AM Gracek90 Jan 16 2014, 09:32 PM Ok. In such topics there is one thing which always makes me wonder what do people have in their mind. Really, please give me one logical explanation for that if you are able to do so. Ok let's start, the whole thing is connected with "Birusu read suppresed Goku power". So you are perfectly fine with the fact that: - Some random alien is able to perfectly read Goku power, despite the fact that he is heavily supressed - Kuririn is able to read all hidden power of Perfect Cell despite the fact that he is heavily supressed by taking just one hit Yet when a freaking God who lives for bilions of years reads Goku power, then you are in constant denial of that. So there is may question. What is the reason for you to belive, that ability of ki sensing of an earthling and a random alien is superior to the ability of a divine being who is thousand times older than both of them combined? http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8945083&t=8452420 wolfie Jan 16 2014, 11:18 PM Sir Brofist Jan 16 2014, 10:43 PM Yes because from my perspective when No. 18 says Vegeta is nothing much, this isn't actually in terms of his powerlevel. This is actually in terms of No. 18's feministic views taking place and the idea that she's always held this disgust for men and how Gero made her brother, a male, stronger than her. She knew Vegeta was actually pretty darn strong, but she had been through such a sexist life having to constantly offer her body for sex that she declined to offer Vegeta the true merit he actually deserved. Akira Toriayama directly states that if there's anything he pays attention to, its the dialogue. Vegeta states that even without the SSJ transformation, he's still confident in winning the tournament. This includes against Piccolo and No. 18. Both of whom he knows are vastly stronger than Freeza and he still makes the remark. There's no reason to be arrogant unless there is truth behind it. In fact had he been weaker than Freeza, he'd have been pissed. He'd have been pissed that he was forced to fight only in his base because he'd know that against Piccolo and No. 18 he would have no chance. But no, instead he proudly announces his superiority and nobody questions it. He also announced his superiority to Goku, Zarbon, Freiza (like three different times), Android 18, 17, 16, cell, cell again, again cell, buu, and many more in all of those he loses. him Declaring it and no one disagreeing with it means nothing he has a terrible habit of biting off more then he can chew Like Brofist pointed out, this is crap. Goku - not sure when you're talking about here. Zarbon - he was superior, and then got beat after Zarbon increased his power. Not evidence. Freeza - he never said he was superior to Freeza's first form, and in fact told the group he needed their help. He admitted he was no match for Freeza's second form, and same for Freeza's third until he got his zenkai. After that he was superior to 3rd Form Freeza. His claim of being stronger than 4th Form Freeza could be dismissed as the power going to his head, but Freeza did have to increase his speed to actually prove to Vegeta that it was hopeless. This isn't really evidence either. Androids - no sensible ki. Absolutely not evidence and I'm not sure why people try to use this. Cell - he admitted he was inferior to Imperfect Cell right off the bat. He was stronger than 2nd Stage Cell. He was stronger than Perfect Cell's initial power, and there's no reason to not believe he wasn't stronger than Cell's power there after using the RoSaT a second time. This is, as well, not evidence. Boo - he had little hope going into the fight and realized quickly that it was futile with Boo's regeneration. Once he insulted Boo and the blob powered up, that was it - self-destruction was the only way. I'm not seeing how this is evidence either. "Many more" - who would these people be? Specifics, if you will. Quote: He also says he can beat Goku do you think thats the case? if so why did he let him self be controled? simple thing is, he was being hot headed as usal Remember krillan even says "with out ssj I may stand a chance" why is Vegetas words any more of a deal then his? With him saying he can't beat Goku prior to the whole event on Babidi's ship, why not believe him? We had no knowledge of Goku's power at that time, and only had Vegeta's word to go by. He very well could've been stronger than Goku - we didn't know. Doubting him just because "it's Vegeta" is ridiculous. The statements are there for a reason. If there are no contradictions, it should be taken as the truth. You have the right to doubt a character but you cannot effectively prove them wrong without contradictory evidence, which personality attributes are not. There is one, he says he can easily win, but he needs babidi to tie with goku so no, he cant, he had not seen picciolo or goku Gohan, he had NO idea gohan was so much weaker in till he went ssj2 Tge point is, his claims are often wrong He told goku he ciuld not beat him first fight Tgought he was a ssj with freizs Thought he vould be 18 ( who was also at the tournament Thought he woukd have no problem with buu He is ALWAY used as the guy who thinks he is stronger thenhe is



wolfie	Jan 17 2014, 05:54 AM Post #109
Posts: 159 Group: Member Member #10,702 Joined: January 8, 2014 Gender Male	wolfie Jan 17 2014, 05:52 AM Like Brofist pointed out, this is crap. Goku - not sure when you're talking about here. Zarbon - he was superior, and then got beat after Zarbon increased his power. Not evidence. Freeza - he never said he was superior to Freeza's first form, and in fact told the group he needed their help. He admitted he was no match for Freeza's second form, and same for Freeza's third until he got his zenkai. After that he was superior to 3rd Form Freeza. His claim of being stronger than 4th Form Freeza could be dismissed as the power going to his head, but Freeza did have to increase his speed to actually prove to Vegeta that it was hopeless. This isn't really evidence either. Androids - no sensible ki. Absolutely not evidence and I'm not sure why people try to use this. Cell - he admitted he was inferior to Imperfect Cell right off the bat. He was stronger than 2nd Stage Cell. He was stronger than Perfect Cell's initial power, and there's no reason to not believe he wasn't stronger than Cell's power there after using the RoSaT a second time. This is, as well, not evidence. Boo - he had little hope going into the fight and realized quickly that it was futile with Boo's regeneration. Once he insulted Boo and the blob powered up, that was it - self-destruction was the only way. I'm not seeing how this is evidence either. "Many more" - who would these people be? Specifics, if you will. Quote: He also says he can beat Goku do you think thats the case? if so why did he let him self be controled? simple thing is, he was being hot headed as usal Remember krillan even says "with out ssj I may stand a chance" why is Vegetas words any more of a deal then his? With him saying he can't beat Goku prior to the whole event on Babidi's ship, why not believe him? We had no knowledge of Goku's power at that time, and only had Vegeta's word to go by. He very well could've been stronger than Goku - we didn't know. Doubting him just because "it's Vegeta" is ridiculous. The statements are there for a reason. If there are no contradictions, it should be taken as the truth. You have the right to doubt a character but you cannot effectively prove them wrong without contradictory evidence, which personality attributes are not. Tge point is, his claims are often wrong He told goku he ciuld not beat him first fight Tgought he was a ssj with freizs Thought he vould be 18 ( who was also at the tournament Thought he woukd have no problem with buu He is ALWAY used as the guy who thinks he is stronger thenhe is[/quote] Edited by wolfie, Jan 17 2014, 05:55 AM.



Goddess Ultimecia	Jan 17 2014, 05:59 AM Post #110
Posts: 10,145 Group: RP Moderator Member #8,473 Joined: October 26, 2012 Gender Male Country None	To be fair, Goku was a tough one to kill in their first fight. He thought he was a Super Saiyan because he had reached a pinnacle of power he had thought could only be attributed with being Super Saiyan. It's not like he knew that they had Gold hair and aura's.
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+ Pyrus	Jan 17 2014, 06:12 AM Post #111
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Quote: Tge point is, his claims are often wrong When they're wrong we are shown such a thing. Quote: He told goku he ciuld not beat him first fight Context. I don't know what you're truly referring to. Quote: Tgought he was a ssj with freizs It isn't like he knew what a Super Saiyan looked like. He'd only heard tales of a super powerful Saiyan, which he was at the time. Quote: Thought he vould be 18 ( who was also at the tournament I don't understand the usage of this one. It's been pointed out how he was understandably wrong in their first encounter, so what is this one trying to prove? We didn't see them fight again. Quote: Thought he woukd have no problem with buu I didn't perceive that from his actions. He went in knowing it wasn't going to be easy. He was right there when Goku blatantly told him that it would take all three of them to bring down Boo. Quote: He is ALWAY used as the guy who thinks he is stronger thenhe is Which isn't evidence in itself. His past mistakes, which could've happened to most other characters, don't disprove his future claims. Vegeta is an arrogant person, but his statements always stem from some amount of truth or logic. When he's surpassed, he admits as much, even if it pains him to do so. It isn't like he's constantly in denial even after getting his a* beat. Edited by Pyrus**, Jan 17 2014, 06:15 AM.
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wolfie	Jan 17 2014, 08:09 AM Post #112
Posts: 159 Group: Member Member #10,702 Joined: January 8, 2014 Gender Male	Kamikaze Pyro Jan 17 2014, 06:12 AM Quote: Tge point is, his claims are often wrong When they're wrong we are shown such a thing. Quote: He told goku he ciuld not beat him first fight Context. I don't know what you're truly referring to. Quote: Tgought he was a ssj with freizs It isn't like he knew what a Super Saiyan looked like. He'd only heard tales of a super powerful Saiyan, which he was at the time. Quote: Thought he vould be 18 ( who was also at the tournament I don't understand the usage of this one. It's been pointed out how he was understandably wrong in their first encounter, so what is this one trying to prove? We didn't see them fight again. Quote: Thought he woukd have no problem with buu I didn't perceive that from his actions. He went in knowing it wasn't going to be easy. He was right there when Goku blatantly told him that it would take all three of them to bring down Boo. Quote: He is ALWAY used as the guy who thinks he is stronger thenhe is Which isn't evidence in itself. His past mistakes, which could've happened to most other characters, don't disprove his future claims. Vegeta is an arrogant person, but his statements always stem from some amount of truth or logic. When he's surpassed, he admits as much, even if it pains him to do so. It isn't like he's constantly in denial even after getting his a* beat. I disagree, they show logic onky in he is full of him self but has power, He thinks he is the best at all times regardless of truth He was told by goku that buu was a big deal, he went to fight alone. He told goku in their first fight there was "no way" goku could reach his level. Wrong Even IF you take his statement as truth, he could only say about those he knew, plenty he did not. Like goku, maybe gohan, piccilo He saw none of their power during this statement, he assumed Even with 18, he cant sense her, he has no idea if he is stronger then her. She also sais she was going to win. No proof he is stronger At best he made an arrogant baseless claim only referring to the few in the ship, that he can sense Edited by wolfie**, Jan 17 2014, 08:14 AM.



Gracek90	Jan 17 2014, 08:17 AM Post #113
Posts: 566 Group: Member Member #10,535 Joined: November 27, 2013 Gender Male	Another endless debate to be honest. It is already known, that both sides have their own arguments and it is impossible to make people from one side to belive, that the other point of view is right.
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+ Pyrus	Jan 17 2014, 08:50 AM Post #114
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Quote: I disagree, they show logic onky in he is full of him self but has power, He thinks he is the best at all times regardless of truth That's entirely false. He's admitted to plenty of people being superior to him. Chapter: 231 (DBZ 37), P1.2, P2.1 Context: after Goku beats him up with the Kaio-Ken x3 Vegeta: “This…this cannot be happening!!! I…I am a Super Elite!! I can not be beaten by some lower-level warrior like him!!! [ ] I am the best in the universe…!!!!” Chapter: 266 (DBZ 72), P10.5 Context: while trying to flee with the dragonballs Vegeta: “If I were clumsy enough to escape by flying, Freeza would instantly overtake me…” Note: so he swims Chapter: 268 (DBZ 74), P13.1 Context: Vegeta turned down Zarbon’s proposal to fight Freeza together…by killing him. Vegeta: “If Freeza could be defeated just by teaming with the likes of you…then I wouldn’t have any trouble…” Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P12.2-4 Vegeta: “Listen, you dirty bastard…! This Ginyu Special-Squad that Freeza has called is about as…no, they could be even stronger than me! And there are five of them!! They’ll find your ball with their scouters and come to kill us all!!!” Kuririn: “N-no… It can’t be…” Vegeta: “Don’t you feel their power?!! There’s only one way!!! Make me immortal so I can fight them!!!” Nail: “He could be telling the truth… I do feel five large, evil powers…” Chapter: 276 (DBZ 82), P13.1-2 Recoom: “Don’t you have any techniques with more zip than that? ‘Cause if you don’t, how about I just kill ya?” Vegeta: “Th…that rotten monster…Da-dammit…To think that he’d be so strong…I’m being treated…just like a baby…” Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P6.2, P7.4 Context: Vegeta fires at Freeza from behind Vegeta: “Alright! He was too complacent and let his guard down! He took that head-on!” Freeza is still fine Vegeta: “Ou-our fate is sealed…” Chapter: 299 (DBZ 105), P1.4 Context: as Freeza torments Gohan Vegeta: “I don’t care if th-that brat dies…But what am I going to do about Freeza’s power? It’s far greater than I imagined…!” Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P12.3 Context: after No.20 flees Vegeta: “Damn it all! He’s quicker than I thought…!” Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1 Context: after Vegeta continues to fight No.18 Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…” No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?” Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.” No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.” Chapter: 357 (DBZ 163), P8.3 Context: considering his defeat by the androids Vegeta: “I-I’m the prince ,the most elite of the Saiyans…Now that I’ve become a Super Saiyan, I should be #1 in the entire universe…Is it because my opponents are androids…Is this my limit?...” Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1 Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…” Context: the vanished one is Cell, and the remaining one is Piccolo Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P11.7 Vegeta: “The battle power I sensed then really did surpass mine, as a Super Saiyan…Im-impossible…He’s just a Namekian...” Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P14.4 Vegeta: “They’re all just d*ing around with me…! Easily surpassing the Super Saiyan, the greatest in the universe…!” Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P13.1-2 Context: After sensing half of Full Power Super Saiyan Goku’s max power from a distance. Vegeta (to self): “Damn you, Kakarot… It’s always like this… He’s always a step ahead of me…! It drives me crazy…Just when I think I’ve caught up, he widens the lead again…” Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P10.1 Vegeta: “It drives me crazy, but I’ll admit it…Despite doing all that special training, I didn’t surpass Kakarot…Th-that bastard’s a genius…But Cell is 1 or 2 steps above even him…” Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P14.8 Context: after Goku wants to pick the person to fight Cell next Vegeta: “Wh-what’s he planning…?! Th-there’s nobody who can win…!” Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P2.3-4 Context: after Gohan powers up Vegeta: “That brat…How did he get such a gigantic battle power?…This is impossible…!” Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P6.5 Vegeta: “Wh-what strength…! A bunch of little squirts like this [are doing this] to me…” Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P7.6, P13.3, P14.7 Context: as Gohan kills the Cell Juniors Goku: “Hehhehehe…I kne-knew it…” [ ] Piccolo: “Is that Gohan?...” [ ] Vegeta: “This is unbelievable…” Chapter: 426 (DBZ 232), P4.2-3 Vegeta: “At that time there was a large gap between our powers…But what about now? While you’ve been enjoying peace, I’ve continued to train.” Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.1-4 Goku: “Gohan, it’s your turn next, but have you trained properly?” Vegeta: “Unfortunately, it seems he got carried away in peace and didn’t do any significant training. Our powers are higher than his now…Though I suppose there’s no telling what would happen if he snapped and went into a frenzy… ” Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P10.3-4, P11.2-3 Context: after Goku and Vegeta fight for a while Goku: “Un-unbelievable…I thought I trained considerably in the afterlife…But we’re completely even…You trained more than me…” Vegeta: “…No, that’s not it…I think I did perform more special training than you, but you’re a greater genius than I am…No matter how much time passed, this gap wouldn’t change…I realized this, when you fought with that monster Babidi sent…It was a shock…That’s why I secretly resolved myself…[ ] At the tournament, the people who knew that pair who Babidi made into his underlings said that they had become far stronger than before…I remembered that, and I thought…That if I were taken over by him too, then the gap between you and me would vanish…And I was right…” Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P1.3 Context: after Boo’s big attack makes a crater Vegeta: “…Wh-what the?...Ridiculous; he’s st-strong, and to top it off immortal too…Damn it all…” Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3 Trunks: “N-no! We’ll fight too! You’ll be killed on your own, papa! We’ll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!” Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…” Chapter: 500 (DBZ 306), P12.6 Context: as Enma Daio sends Vegeta to fight Boo Vegeta: “Hmph…To think that you’d ask an evildoer like me…However, with Majin Boo as my opponent, I don’t think I can live up to your faint hopes…” Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5 Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…” Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!” Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2 Context: as Goku fights pure Boo Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…” Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P12.4-6 Context: after Goku fights pure Boo for a bit Vegeta: “…Heh…You never intended to switch out, even from the beginning. Don’t spout such transparent lies…You knew…That I’d be killed at once.” Goku: “Huh!? N-no, that’s not it…” Vegeta: “Hmph…Don’t try sparing my feelings…The truth is you were right [that I’d be killed]. That Boo is stronger than I imagined…And so are you, Kakarot…” Quote after quote of Vegeta admitting he was wrong, mistaken, inferior, however you want to call it. Quote: He was told by goku that buu was a big deal, he went to fight alone. He thought he was the one responsible for unleashing Boo. He was taking responsibility for his actions. Quote: He told goku in their first fight there was "no way" goku could reach his level. Wrong When was this? Before or after Kaio-ken was used? And was he speaking in terms of their statuses (low-class, Super Elite) or actual power at the time? Quote: Even IF you take his statement as truth, he could only say about those he knew, plenty he did not. Like goku, maybe gohan, piccilo He saw none of their power during this statement, he assumed He did have to assume, and even admitted he was unsure in Gohan's case. Characters do have to assume how powerful their opponents are at times. It doesn't invalidate the function of statements. Quote: Even with 18, he cant sense her, he has no idea if he is stronger then her. He doesn't know her exact battle power, but he knows how strong he was when she whooped his a*, and how strong she isn't due to being able to sense Cell's power, which was far superior to hers. Quote: She also sais she was going to win. No proof he is stronger She never said she was going to win. She knew the Saiyans would be entering and only wanted money, not to necessarily win. Quote: At best he made an arrogant baseless claim only referring to the few in the ship, that he can sense What is this referring to now? It took me so long to gather up all of those quotes above that I forgot the point here.
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