Naked Snake

Jan 17 2014, 12:30 AM

''The only time that he does special training is in the ROSAT and when he dies again, and he was more concerned with training Gohan in the ROSAT, and he seemed more concerned with developing his Super Saiyan forms in the 7 year gap.''

That doesn't change the fact that his SSJ went from </<< #17/18 to >> Initial Perfect Cell. That's a humongous power-up, and unless you use some different form of calculating power, his base would have to increase by the same amount.

SuperSaiyan2

Jan 17 2014, 12:27 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:25 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:23 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:22 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:11 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:10 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:05 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:03 AM

Levels that actually follow official numbers would be preferred.

What official numbers? There are none after the Namek arc.

Stuff like SSJ Multipliers are numbers.... That list also defies some of the Daizenshuu numbers.

They are still not official. I'd like to direct you to the quote in your signature.

It's comes from official material therefore it's official. Whether you follow it is entirely up to you.

Not entirely true. The "official" numbers comes from SEG, which by no means are a fact book. Daizenshuu isn't fact either, like SSJ2 points out.

Facts have nothing to do with whether or not it's official. The SEG is official material.

So if you had a guidebook that told you to jump off a bridge, you would follow it? Official or not, it doesn't make it valid.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:40 AM

SuperSaiyan2

Jan 17 2014, 12:27 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:25 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:23 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:22 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:11 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:10 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:05 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:03 AM

Levels that actually follow official numbers would be preferred.

What official numbers? There are none after the Namek arc.

Stuff like SSJ Multipliers are numbers.... That list also defies some of the Daizenshuu numbers.

They are still not official. I'd like to direct you to the quote in your signature.

It's comes from official material therefore it's official. Whether you follow it is entirely up to you.

Not entirely true. The "official" numbers comes from SEG, which by no means are a fact book. Daizenshuu isn't fact either, like SSJ2 points out.

Facts have nothing to do with whether or not it's official. The SEG is official material.

So if you had a guidebook that told you to jump off a bridge, you would follow it? Official or not, it doesn't make it valid.

No sh**. I never said it was the end all be all truth, I just said it was official.

Ketchupis Ultionis

Jan 17 2014, 12:40 AM

Naked Snake

Jan 17 2014, 12:30 AM

''The only time that he does special training is in the ROSAT and when he dies again, and he was more concerned with training Gohan in the ROSAT, and he seemed more concerned with developing his Super Saiyan forms in the 7 year gap.''

That doesn't change the fact that his SSJ went from </<< #17/18 to >> Initial Perfect Cell. That's a humongous power-up, and unless you use some different form of calculating power, his base would have to increase by the same amount.

That was me, by the way.

And no, it wouldn't.
Goku's Super Saiyan form during the Cell arc didn't have the same parameters of what it had previously.
The form itself had changed, but only because he'd trained it to be more efficient.
More efficiency=more power.

His power level can increase exponentially, but that doesn't mean that his ki goes up by that amount as well. He simply has more access to the reserves that the form already possesses, and he doesn't need to waste as much on the transformation itself.

However, just to clarify, I have no doubts that his ki also went up during his training in the ROSAT.

SuperSaiyan2

Jan 17 2014, 12:43 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:40 AM

SuperSaiyan2

Jan 17 2014, 12:27 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:25 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:23 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:22 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:11 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:10 AM

Sora

Jan 17 2014, 12:05 AM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 17 2014, 12:03 AM

Levels that actually follow official numbers would be preferred.

What official numbers? There are none after the Namek arc.

Stuff like SSJ Multipliers are numbers.... That list also defies some of the Daizenshuu numbers.

They are still not official. I'd like to direct you to the quote in your signature.

It's comes from official material therefore it's official. Whether you follow it is entirely up to you.

Not entirely true. The "official" numbers comes from SEG, which by no means are a fact book. Daizenshuu isn't fact either, like SSJ2 points out.

Facts have nothing to do with whether or not it's official. The SEG is official material.

So if you had a guidebook that told you to jump off a bridge, you would follow it? Official or not, it doesn't make it valid.

No sh**. I never said it was the end all be all truth, I just said it was official.

But then you disregard the second list I showed you because a couple of numbers didn't fit in with the Daiz.

Naked Snake

Jan 17 2014, 12:47 AM

Ketchupis Ultionis

Jan 17 2014, 12:40 AM

Naked Snake

Jan 17 2014, 12:30 AM

''The only time that he does special training is in the ROSAT and when he dies again, and he was more concerned with training Gohan in the ROSAT, and he seemed more concerned with developing his Super Saiyan forms in the 7 year gap.''

That doesn't change the fact that his SSJ went from </<< #17/18 to >> Initial Perfect Cell. That's a humongous power-up, and unless you use some different form of calculating power, his base would have to increase by the same amount.

That was me, by the way.

And no, it wouldn't.
Goku's Super Saiyan form during the Cell arc didn't have the same parameters of what it had previously.
The form itself had changed, but only because he'd trained it to be more efficient.
More efficiency=more power.

His power level can increase exponentially, but that doesn't mean that his ki goes up by that amount as well. He simply has more access to the reserves that the form already possesses, and he doesn't need to waste as much on the transformation itself.

However, just to clarify, I have no doubts that his ki also went up during his training in the ROSAT.

How much do you think he actually wasted on transforming before the RoSaT, though? Surely it wouldn't be a massive amount? The ki usage of transforming is mentioned as a factor, yes, but not such a huge factor that it'd have an extremely large impact on the energy available to them. You could probably argue that mastering SSJ was more about controlling the energy they had after transforming, as they're attempting to act naturally in the state. Anyways, the ease at which the Saiyans transform in the Android Saga suggests to me that the ki that they expended on transforming wasn't significant at all.

Naked Snake

Jan 17 2014, 01:11 AM

Wouldn't it be better to simply take a basic approach, though? The training wouldn't change the nature of his transformation at all, it'd just make his amplified ki as easy to control as it is in Base;

SSJ Goku : 100
MSSJ Goku : 100

SSJ Goku (After battling for 10 minutes) : 80
MSSJ Goku (After battling for 10 minutes) : 95-100

It would simply give him better control, as opposed to changing the way his ki works at all.

Ketchupis Ultionis

Jan 17 2014, 01:24 AM

Naked Snake

Jan 17 2014, 01:11 AM

Wouldn't it be better to simply take a basic approach, though? The training wouldn't change the nature of his transformation at all, it'd just make his amplified ki as easy to control as it is in Base;

SSJ Goku : 100
MSSJ Goku : 100

SSJ Goku (After battling for 10 minutes) : 80
MSSJ Goku (After battling for 10 minutes) : 95-100

It would simply give him better control, as opposed to changing the way his ki works at all.

I had thought of that, but then you need to consider that Trunks and Vegeta both were nowhere near as strong as Goku was, and they trained in the ROSAT over twice as long has he did.

I prefer to think that both Goku and Vegeta's SSjs are 50x, but Vegeta's only able to use 66.6% of his power over-all. I'm of course just tossing these numbers up.

So even if SSj gives you a 50x increase in ki, Vegeta in essence could only appear to be 33.3x (66%) of his SSj power, while Goku could use the full 100% (50x).

Of course if Goku is stronger than Vegeta to begin with, than their full 100% SSj power is different as well.

ImmortalX

Jan 17 2014, 01:26 AM

Well, Base Saiyans> Base Kids. The Base Kids put up a good fight on 18. SSJ Vegeta (android arc) > Freeza. But 18 destroyed him. Vegeta later got stronger, especially in the Boo Arc.

Base Saiyans>Freeza

Correct me if I'm wrong. My debating skills faded somehow. Now I watch DB/DBZ/GT for fun.

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Just out of curiosity, would that mean that you have the SSJ multiplier higher than 50x? If the 150,000,000 level that Goku was putting out with an un-mastered transformation, would a hypothetical MSSJ Goku on Namek be >/>> 150,000,000?

Assuming we take 150,000,000 to be the correct value, of course.

Gracek90

Jan 16 2014, 09:32 PM

Ok. In such topics there is one thing which always makes me wonder what do people have in their mind. Really, please give me one logical explanation for that if you are able to do so. Ok let's start, the whole thing is connected with "Birusu read suppresed Goku power". So you are perfectly fine with the fact that:
- Some random alien is able to perfectly read Goku power, despite the fact that he is heavily supressed
- Kuririn is able to read all hidden power of Perfect Cell despite the fact that he is heavily supressed by taking just one hit

Yet when a freaking God who lives for bilions of years reads Goku power, then you are in constant denial of that. So there is may question. What is the reason for you to belive, that ability of ki sensing of an earthling and a random alien is superior to the ability of a divine being who is thousand times older than both of them combined?

wolfie

Jan 16 2014, 11:18 PM

Sir Brofist

Jan 16 2014, 10:43 PM

Yes because from my perspective when No. 18 says Vegeta is nothing much, this isn't actually in terms of his powerlevel. This is actually in terms of No. 18's feministic views taking place and the idea that she's always held this disgust for men and how Gero made her brother, a male, stronger than her. She knew Vegeta was actually pretty darn strong, but she had been through such a sexist life having to constantly offer her body for sex that she declined to offer Vegeta the true merit he actually deserved.

Akira Toriayama directly states that if there's anything he pays attention to, its the dialogue. Vegeta states that even without the SSJ transformation, he's still confident in winning the tournament. This includes against Piccolo and No. 18. Both of whom he knows are vastly stronger than Freeza and he still makes the remark. There's no reason to be arrogant unless there is truth behind it. In fact had he been weaker than Freeza, he'd have been pissed. He'd have been pissed that he was forced to fight only in his base because he'd know that against Piccolo and No. 18 he would have no chance.

But no, instead he proudly announces his superiority and nobody questions it.

He also announced his superiority to Goku, Zarbon, Freiza (like three different times), Android 18, 17, 16, cell, cell again, again cell, buu, and many more

in all of those he loses. him Declaring it and no one disagreeing with it means nothing he has a terrible habit of biting off more then he can chew

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He also says he can beat Goku do you think thats the case? if so why did he let him self be controled? simple thing is, he was being hot headed as usal
Remember krillan even says "with out ssj I may stand a chance"
why is Vegetas words any more of a deal then his?

Yuno

Jan 17 2014, 12:24 AM

Stop posting links to manga.

Naked Snake

Jan 17 2014, 12:30 AM

This is still going on?

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

This is arguably contested when it comes to Piccolo, but he says this in front of #18 and she doesn't retort at all. Nobody in the ship argues that he'd be weaker than #18, they all just accept his statement. This is obviously contradicted when Goku reveals his true power, but before that, it still stands.

''The only time that he does special training is in the ROSAT and when he dies again, and he was more concerned with training Gohan in the ROSAT, and he seemed more concerned with developing his Super Saiyan forms in the 7 year gap.''

That doesn't change the fact that his SSJ went from </<< #17/18 to >> Initial Perfect Cell. That's a humongous power-up, and unless you use some different form of calculating power, his base would have to increase by the same amount.