What's your stance on Base Saiyans (Boo Saga) vs. Freeza

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What's your stance on Base Saiyans (Boo Saga) vs. Freeza
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 16 2014, 06:12 PM (4,707 Views)
Mihawk	Jan 16 2014, 07:31 PM Post #31
Posts: 4,804 Group: Prodigy Member #4,783 Joined: March 2, 2010 Gender Not Specified	Obviously base saiyans. I don't want to do mental backflips for the sake of the movie which in itself can be interpreted in many ways (suppression, "gods" suck at sensing power, etc.).



wolfie	Jan 16 2014, 07:34 PM Post #32
Posts: 159 Group: Member Member #10,702 Joined: January 8, 2014 Gender Male	Itachi Jan 16 2014, 07:31 PM Obviously base saiyans. I don't want to do mental backflips for the sake of the movie which in itself can be interpreted in many ways (suppression, "gods" suck at sensing power, etc.). Or base forms dont improve that much after ssj, explain why tgey always need it, train in it etc



Divine Saiya-jin	Jan 16 2014, 07:37 PM Post #33
Posts: 145 Group: Member Member #9,177 Joined: March 12, 2013 Favourite Anime Dragonball Favourite Manga Dragonball	ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 07:29 PM Divine Saiya-jin Jan 16 2014, 07:27 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 07:18 PM Divine Saiya-jin Jan 16 2014, 07:10 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 07:02 PM And like I said, many of those alternative views. Goku getting 33 times stronger was the result of a Zenkai, not training. Kaioshin was scared of Yakon, that doesn't mean he's weaker. He's overly cautious because Babidi supposedly only recruits the strongest people in the universe. Vegeta was being Vegeta. He's a very arrogant person, as I'm sure you've realized already. Yes and an 11X increase by training for a few months. Kaioshin also states that since Gohan was able to increase his regular form by training with the sword he would increase his SSJ strength. This is yet another confirmation that yes base can get stronger and it's not always minute gains. The fact he was able to make a dramatic change in wielding the sword in his base form when he was having issues wielding it in SSJ means the diminished returns argument is not all it's cracked out to be. No, he received a Zenkai after his fight with Vegeta, used a special type of training AND, and abused Zenkais during that training. Who's saying base power doesn't increase? You know, physical strength isn't necessarily increased much when SSJ is activated. BP and strength aren't related. Yes I know he abused zenkais. He was able to increase his strength 19X on Kaiosama's planet. Sure they are related when it requires SSJ to wield it and then it doesn't. Still you're disregarding everything else I've brought up. Yeah, with special training. Strength =/= BP. What have I disregarded exactly? He needed SSJ = his BP to weild the sword. He is then using his new found strength to wield the sword like it's nothing in base. Disregarded that Goku in base was able to dodge Yakon's attacks when we know it requires his hidden SSJ power to defeat Yakon. Goku's SSJ powers and SSJ2 powers have to be in the high billions at this point. For Goku, Vegeta, or Gohan to emit that type of power the multiplier would have to be drastic if their base wasn't above 120,000,000 Edited by Divine Saiya-jin, Jan 16 2014, 07:38 PM.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jan 16 2014, 07:40 PM Post #34
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Divine Saiya-jin Jan 16 2014, 07:37 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 07:29 PM Divine Saiya-jin Jan 16 2014, 07:27 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 07:18 PM Divine Saiya-jin Jan 16 2014, 07:10 PM ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 07:02 PM And like I said, many of those alternative views. Goku getting 33 times stronger was the result of a Zenkai, not training. Kaioshin was scared of Yakon, that doesn't mean he's weaker. He's overly cautious because Babidi supposedly only recruits the strongest people in the universe. Vegeta was being Vegeta. He's a very arrogant person, as I'm sure you've realized already. Yes and an 11X increase by training for a few months. Kaioshin also states that since Gohan was able to increase his regular form by training with the sword he would increase his SSJ strength. This is yet another confirmation that yes base can get stronger and it's not always minute gains. The fact he was able to make a dramatic change in wielding the sword in his base form when he was having issues wielding it in SSJ means the diminished returns argument is not all it's cracked out to be. No, he received a Zenkai after his fight with Vegeta, used a special type of training AND, and abused Zenkais during that training. Who's saying base power doesn't increase? You know, physical strength isn't necessarily increased much when SSJ is activated. BP and strength aren't related. Yes I know he abused zenkais. He was able to increase his strength 19X on Kaiosama's planet. Sure they are related when it requires SSJ to wield it and then it doesn't. Still you're disregarding everything else I've brought up. Yeah, with special training. Strength =/= BP. What have I disregarded exactly? He needed SSJ = his BP to weild the sword. He is then using his new found strength to wield the sword like it's nothing in base. Disregarded that Goku in base was able to dodge Yakon's attacks when we know it requires his hidden SSJ power to defeat Yakon. Goku's SSJ Powers and SSJ2 powers have to be in the high billions at this point. For Goku, Vegeta, or Gohan to emit that type of power the multiplier would have to be drastic if their base wasn't above 120,000,000 He needed SSJ to hold it, yes. What does this have to do with what I pointed out? SSJ definately increases physical strength, but we don't know how much it does. Battle Power = Energy, not physical strength. I addressed the Yakon thing already. Yeah, they are in the billions IMO as well. This doesn't mean their base forms are past 120,000,000. I think base Goku and Vegeta(Post Majin) are at 80,000,000. That would put their SSJ forms at 4,000,000,000 and their SSJ2 forms at 8,000,000,000. Also if I may ask, what is the point of this thread? All this thread is designed to do is attack those who believe the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza. You don't seem to be seeking knowledge. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 16 2014, 07:45 PM.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


Divine Saiya-jin	Jan 16 2014, 07:59 PM Post #35
Posts: 145 Group: Member Member #9,177 Joined: March 12, 2013 Favourite Anime Dragonball Favourite Manga Dragonball	Their physical strength is in direct correlation to their chi level. Both are affected. Not really trying to come off as attacking. All I know is I've been a long time believer in base saiyans > freeza and to me its not even close. I'm not about to let one movie line that was written decades after the manga all of a sudden change my views. I just think there's to much evidence against it.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jan 16 2014, 08:01 PM Post #36
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Divine Saiya-jin Jan 16 2014, 07:59 PM Their physical strength is in direct correlation to their chi level. Both are affected. Not really trying to come off as attacking. All I know is I've been a long time believer in base saiyans > freeza and to me its not even close. I'm not about to let one movie line that was written decades after the manga all of a sudden change my views. I just think there's to much evidence against it. No, physical strength is not correlated to Ki. Toriyama himself said muscles can only get you so far. That's the thing though, the manga doesn't provide factual evidence for the base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza. There are people like Kaboom who believed they were weaker prior to Battle of Gods.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


EMIYA	Jan 16 2014, 08:04 PM Post #37
"I am the bone of my sword." Posts: 11,326 Group: Super Moderator Member #8,292 Joined: September 16, 2012 Gender Not Specified Country United States Favourite Anime Clannad, Shinsekai Yori What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox Favourite Manga Hellsing, Elfen Lied, Trigun Maximum	Base Kids are implied to be around No. 18's level, acknowledged as strong even when the costume is hindering when No. 18 called SSJ Vegeta weak sauce. Daizenshuu enforces the idea of base kids rivaling No. 18 Kaioshin and others stated to be able to one shot Freeza Kaioshin freaks out over Yakon and tells everyone to team up, Base Goku handles Yakon well enough. Daizenshuu enforces the whole "Kaioshin being weaker than Freeza) Piccolo>No. 20>Freeza Several statements and implications (regardless of how you think of them are made that clearly intended the Base Saiyans to be stronger than Piccolo from Dabura's statement to Vegeta's confidence in the tournament in how his superiority would not be challenged even at base form. So yeah, Base Saiyans>Freeza.



Divine Saiya-jin	Jan 16 2014, 08:04 PM Post #38
Posts: 145 Group: Member Member #9,177 Joined: March 12, 2013 Favourite Anime Dragonball Favourite Manga Dragonball	But chi affects what they are able to do physically. To me its factual evidence. I'm sorry others disregard it.



SSJ	Jan 16 2014, 08:04 PM Post #39
Posts: 16,377 Group: General Member #8,258 Joined: September 8, 2012 Gender Female Country Sweden Favourite Anime Psycho Pass, Steins;Gate, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Favourite Manga One Piece, Berserk, Rurouni Kenshin, Gantz	ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 06:23 PM Beerus's statement. I don't find much reason in disregarding it. -Goku was suppressed -One does not make accurate judgements based on muscles, which was what Beerus was checking out.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jan 16 2014, 08:05 PM Post #40
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Clearly intended? Man you're just trying to start an argument aren't you? It's not factual evidence, it's subjective evidence Divine Saiya-jin. Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 16 2014, 08:06 PM.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


SSJ	Jan 16 2014, 08:13 PM Post #41
Posts: 16,377 Group: General Member #8,258 Joined: September 8, 2012 Gender Female Country Sweden Favourite Anime Psycho Pass, Steins;Gate, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Favourite Manga One Piece, Berserk, Rurouni Kenshin, Gantz	Prince boi: Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P11.1-3 Ginyu: "In my estimation, his ability looks like it's about 60,000." Jheese: "Six... 60,000!? H-he's a Saiyan!! Whoever heard of a Saiyan at 60,000...?!!" Ginyu: “It’s not impossible. He could be like us, a super-gifted warrior, born as a mutant…Looks like this will be an unprecedentedly entertaining battle…I never thought the time would come for me to show my true power.” Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1 Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000." Ginyu shows us why you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover. He attempted to estimate Goku's power by looking at him, and he was wrong. I see the exact same thing happening with Beerus. Tell me, when does Goku ever walk around using full power? Even if he unsuppressed when Beerus discovered him, there is no way he was using full power. So Beerus was likely judging the suppressed amount he was using after being discovered, and that's if he even was referring to Goku's ki. The fact is, looking at someone does not give you any gauge of how powerful they are.



Divine Saiya-jin	Jan 16 2014, 08:17 PM Post #42
Posts: 145 Group: Member Member #9,177 Joined: March 12, 2013 Favourite Anime Dragonball Favourite Manga Dragonball	Ok its not a flat out statement but everything points to it and nothing but Beerus statement that goes against it.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jan 16 2014, 08:18 PM Post #43
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Beerus isn't even examining Goku's physical prowess =/. He's estimating what he should be capable of.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


SSJ	Jan 16 2014, 08:19 PM Post #44
Posts: 16,377 Group: General Member #8,258 Joined: September 8, 2012 Gender Female Country Sweden Favourite Anime Psycho Pass, Steins;Gate, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood Favourite Manga One Piece, Berserk, Rurouni Kenshin, Gantz	ThePrinceOfSaiyajins Jan 16 2014, 08:18 PM Beerus isn't even examining Goku's physical prowess =/. He's estimating what he should be capable of. Which is exactly what Ginyu did twice. He was wrong both times.



+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans	Jan 16 2014, 08:23 PM Post #45
魔王子 Posts: 9,797 Group: Elite Member Member #10,492 Joined: November 16, 2013 Gender Male Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	I always though he accurately guessed 90K, oh well. He's still not a god like Beerus, so I don't find it hard to believe he can accurately guess what Goku is capable of. Kaio agrees with him and Goku doesn't argue too.
	Battle Power Guide 3DS FC: 2707-1669-7946 XBL/PSN: MaOujiBejita


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