Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 06:53 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 16 2014, 06:43 PM

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 06:37 PM

Except for the whole manga!

Ugh, this argument in and of itself means nothing. Actually point out specific instances. I've seen pretty much all counter arguments for the base Saiyans being weaker than Freeza, and there are many interpretations of said counter argument. There's no factual evidence that suggests the base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza.

Goku received a 40X plus increase in strength to his base in one year in Namek and Freeza saga. It would only take him 40X more to match Freeza by Boo saga. That's nothing when he had the training on Yardrat, 3 years of sparing for android saga, the RoSaT before Cell games, and then the 7 years of intense training in the other world.

You have to be willing to admit that Goku could get a 40X increase in one year but not a 40X increase at ALL those years of training. That's rubbish no matter how diminished his returns would be.

Then you have Goku being able to keep up with Yakon in base whom we know Kaioshin is downright afraid of.

Then you have Goku and Gohan with the ability to hold the Z sword which initimidates kaioshin whom we know was stated to be able to one shot Freeza.

In order for you to believe their base form never got that much stronger the SSJ Multipliers would have to go way up from it's original 50X.

Then we have the fact that Vegeta is confident in fighting in the tournament without SSJ even though he knew Piccolo and 18 were going to be there.

Alot of things pointing towards Base Saiyans>>>>>>> Freeza and nothing against it really.

Kamikaze Pyro

Jan 16 2014, 06:58 PM

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 06:53 PM

Then you have Goku being able to keep up with Yakon in base whom we know Kaioshin is downright afraid of.

"AFRAID OF."

Not "weaker than."

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 07:04 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Jan 16 2014, 06:58 PM

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 06:53 PM

Then you have Goku being able to keep up with Yakon in base whom we know Kaioshin is downright afraid of.

"AFRAID OF."

Not "weaker than."

There's a reason he's afraid of him. You really think Kaioshin would be afraid of someone that was weaker than someone he could one shot?

Anyways I'm willing to let go of that argument as Kaioshin isn't that great at reading ki but we know it required Goku to use some of his hidden power to defeat Yakon which means for him to be able to dodge Yakons initial attacks in base says something.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 16 2014, 07:02 PM

And like I said, many of those alternative views. Goku getting 33 times stronger was the result of a Zenkai, not training. Kaioshin was scared of Yakon, that doesn't mean he's weaker. He's overly cautious because Babidi supposedly only recruits the strongest people in the universe. Vegeta was being Vegeta. He's a very arrogant person, as I'm sure you've realized already.

Kamikaze Pyro

Jan 16 2014, 07:07 PM

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 07:04 PM

Kamikaze Pyro

Jan 16 2014, 06:58 PM

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 06:53 PM

Then you have Goku being able to keep up with Yakon in base whom we know Kaioshin is downright afraid of.

"AFRAID OF."

Not "weaker than."

There's a reason he's afraid of him. You really think Kaioshin would be afraid of someone that was weaker than someone he could one shot?

Anyways I'm willing to let go of that argument as Kaioshin isn't that great at reading ki but we know it required Goku to use some of his hidden power to defeat Yakon which means for him to be able to dodge Yakons initial attacks in base says something.

If he can't sense his ki, yes!

Kaioshinsucks4life.

Ssj3vegito96

Jan 16 2014, 07:10 PM

I honestly don't know what my opinion is anymore. I don't buy beerus poking suppressed goku as proof he's weaker than frieza but idk what proof there is for base buu saga goku being stronger than frieza. Someone enlighten me

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 07:10 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 16 2014, 07:02 PM

And like I said, many of those alternative views. Goku getting 33 times stronger was the result of a Zenkai, not training. Kaioshin was scared of Yakon, that doesn't mean he's weaker. He's overly cautious because Babidi supposedly only recruits the strongest people in the universe. Vegeta was being Vegeta. He's a very arrogant person, as I'm sure you've realized already.

Yes and an 11X increase by training for a few months.

Kaioshin also states that since Gohan was able to increase his regular form by training with the sword he would increase his SSJ strength. This is yet another confirmation that yes base can get stronger and it's not always minute gains.

The fact he was able to make a dramatic change in wielding the sword in his base form when he was having issues wielding it in SSJ means the diminished returns argument is not all it's cracked out to be.

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 16 2014, 07:18 PM

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 07:10 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 16 2014, 07:02 PM

And like I said, many of those alternative views. Goku getting 33 times stronger was the result of a Zenkai, not training. Kaioshin was scared of Yakon, that doesn't mean he's weaker. He's overly cautious because Babidi supposedly only recruits the strongest people in the universe. Vegeta was being Vegeta. He's a very arrogant person, as I'm sure you've realized already.

Yes and an 11X increase by training for a few months.

Kaioshin also states that since Gohan was able to increase his regular form by training with the sword he would increase his SSJ strength. This is yet another confirmation that yes base can get stronger and it's not always minute gains.

The fact he was able to make a dramatic change in wielding the sword in his base form when he was having issues wielding it in SSJ means the diminished returns argument is not all it's cracked out to be.

No, he received a Zenkai after his fight with Vegeta, used a special type of training AND, and abused Zenkais during that training. Who's saying base power doesn't increase? You know, physical strength isn't necessarily increased much when SSJ is activated. BP and strength aren't related.

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 07:27 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 16 2014, 07:18 PM

Divine Saiya-jin

Jan 16 2014, 07:10 PM

ThePrinceOfSaiyajins

Jan 16 2014, 07:02 PM

And like I said, many of those alternative views. Goku getting 33 times stronger was the result of a Zenkai, not training. Kaioshin was scared of Yakon, that doesn't mean he's weaker. He's overly cautious because Babidi supposedly only recruits the strongest people in the universe. Vegeta was being Vegeta. He's a very arrogant person, as I'm sure you've realized already.

Yes and an 11X increase by training for a few months.

Kaioshin also states that since Gohan was able to increase his regular form by training with the sword he would increase his SSJ strength. This is yet another confirmation that yes base can get stronger and it's not always minute gains.

The fact he was able to make a dramatic change in wielding the sword in his base form when he was having issues wielding it in SSJ means the diminished returns argument is not all it's cracked out to be.

No, he received a Zenkai after his fight with Vegeta, used a special type of training AND, and abused Zenkais during that training. Who's saying base power doesn't increase? You know, physical strength isn't necessarily increased much when SSJ is activated. BP and strength aren't related.

Yes I know he abused zenkais. He was able to increase his strength 19X on Kaiosama's planet.

Sure they are related when it requires SSJ to wield it and then it doesn't.

Still you're disregarding everything else I've brought up.