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- Super Saiyan 2's - CG and Buu arc, Pre and Post Majin Vegeta
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| Super Saiyan 2's - CG and Buu arc, Pre and Post Majin Vegeta; Where they stand | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 11 2014, 04:44 AM (1,248 Views) | |
| + Saiyan Paladin | Jan 11 2014, 04:44 AM Post #1 |
 
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I was just curious as to where you place the SSj2's. From Gohan at the Cell Games to the three saiyans who have this form during the Buu arc. I'll use CG SSj2 Gohan as a starting point for mine SSj2 Kid Gohan - 100 SPC - 95 SSj2 Teen Gohan - 80 SSj2 Pre-Majin Vegeta - 90-95 SSj2 Goku/Majin Vegeta - 110 I personally believe Vegeta was SSj2 before he was Majin, and kept the power from the Majin charm, but its all speculation. What do you think? |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Jan 11 2014, 06:25 AM Post #2 |
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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To me it seems likely that he was SSj2 previous to his Majin Possession, and most of the fandom accepts this as the truth. And there's several things to support this, considering that when Goku did a flash transformation against Yakon, Vegeta makes mention of Goku surpassing the "Saiyan wall" as well, implying that he (Vegeta) also knew how to do it. It doesn't really make sense for him to be comparing Goku to anyone else at that moment in time. In addition to this, Vegeta makes mention of him and Goku proabably being stronger than Gohan at that time. Super Saiyan 2 seems like something that has to be learned unless the initial transformation is reached via rage, like Gohan's was (the scene in the anime where he goes SSj2 in front of Goku during their training was filler). However, there's also nothing to state that Gohan was actually "weaker" during the Tenkaichi Budokai than he was at the Cell Games. We also need to factor in Gohan's rage boost from his initial SSj2 during the Cell Games, which could explain the gap that we think we see later on. However, without rage, I wouldn't be surprised if they're roughly the same. Cell Era Gohan obviously has sharper fighting skills, therefore he (by all logic) would be "stronger" in a sense than TB Gohan. Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Jan 11 2014, 06:26 AM.
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 The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| + Emmeth | Jan 11 2014, 07:48 AM Post #3 |
I ♥ Yoeri
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There is actually several things giving us the impression this is the case. Vegeta stating he's probably stronger than him, also implying Gohan is not as good as he was when he was a kid. |
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| SSJ | Jan 11 2014, 07:52 AM Post #4 |
 
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Yeah Vegeta definitely achieved SSJ 2 before he turned Majin. The Daizenshuu claims that he gained SSJ 2 through harsh training. Also, we have Vegeta expecting Goku to have surpassed Gohan, yet he still wanted to fight him. He would at least need SSJ 2 in order to do that.. I do agree with the numbers you posted though, looks spotless. |
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 11 2014, 11:51 AM Post #5 |
 
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The thing is ; Babidi doesn't even unlock new transformations , he only gives you power boost. |
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| * Ketchup Revenge | Jan 11 2014, 06:21 PM Post #6 |
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
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I agree, but Saiyan transformations are more learned than they are "unlocked". The only one that's unlocked is the first form, which needs to be achieved through some type of special circumstances. |
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The vengeance is her's for as long as she stands by Him. | |
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| MW100 | Jan 11 2014, 06:34 PM Post #7 |
 
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I think Vegeta's and Goku's ssj2 would both be far greater than Gohan's cell games ssj2 especially after intense training for 7 whole years (Vegeta training in 500 times gravity and goku in other world) so if gohan at cell games gohan ssj2 was 100 then vegeta pre majin ssj2 would be 150 and goku's would be 170 or something like that. and i think proof that vegeta didn't need majin for ssj2 is because when he went majin he started off ssj instead of ssj2 and transformed with as much ease as goku into ssj2. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2014, 07:29 PM Post #8 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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The fact that Kid Gohan was at least implied to be near SSj2 Goku/Majin Vegeta while Pre-Majin Vegeta wasn't is pretty much indication that Vegeta didn't surpass Gohan until the Majin Charm. |
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| + Kaboom | Jan 11 2014, 07:53 PM Post #9 |
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Well, I guess we'll use Gohan's SSJ2 power from the Cell Games as the measuring stick, right? SSJ2 Gohan (Vs Cell): 100 Gohan has gotten a little weaker, but not hugely. It's most noticeable only when he transforms, and his rusty skills affect his actual performance in battle just as much if not more than his power loss. SSJ2 Gohan (Boo Arc): 85 Before his power-up from Bobbidi, Vegeta has become stronger than what Gohan is now, and is possibly equal or at least very close to Gohan's former power. It's a little vague where he stands aside from being clearly weaker than Goku, but he is confident on taking on Gohan even before Gohan's power loss was confirmed. SSJ2 Vegeta (Boo Arc): ~95 Goku is noted as stronger than Gohan was seven years ago, as is Vegeta after his power-up to match him (though still close enough that Piccolo has a hard time telling for sure). SSJ2 Goku (Boo Arc): 115 SSJ2 Vegeta (Bobbidi's power-up): 115 That about does it. While the manga did show that there were noticeable differences in their powers, they were all still treated as pretty close together and in the same tier. Especially when you consider things like Goku being able to use Fusion with either Vegeta or Gohan, something which requires being similar in power. So there's no huge power gaps at work here. Edited by Kaboom, Jan 11 2014, 07:56 PM.
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| + Clearin | Jan 11 2014, 08:25 PM Post #10 |
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I'm gonna work this out starting with SSj Goku (Cell Games) as my base: SSj Goku (Cell Games): 100 I need suppressed Cell somewhere ahead of this, but I also need suppressed Cell to not be weaker than SSj Kid Gohan, who is stronger than Goku. The only decent middle ground I can come to here is to use 110 for both Cell and Gohan, it nerfs Gohan more than I'd like and buffs Cell, but I can't justify Cell being any higher than that, and since Gohan can't surpass Cell, and I want him to be as high as possible, I make him equal. Suppressed Cell and SSj Kid Gohan: 110 I use a x2 SSj2 multiplier, so normally SSj2 Kid Gohan would be 220, but since I give him a rage boost I double that to 440. I don't really have a reason for doubling it, it just seems like an easy thing to do for the rage boost. SSj2 Kid Gohan: 440 I have SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta about 15% stronger than SSj2 Kid Gohan, because why not? It just seems like a decent amount ahead without being massively ahead. SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta: 506. To do Pre-Majin Vegeta I use the line Vegeta says to Goku which is "The gap between us didn't change". Obviously this doesn't have to be taken literally, and might simply mean the fact there was a gap didn't change, rather than the exact percentage of the gap, but to make things easy for myself, I just use the same gap anyway because nothing contradicts it. I use a 30% gap in the Cell Games. Pre Majin SSj2 Vegeta: 389. And I just put Teen Gohan on the same PL as CG Goku, again purely to keep things easy. SSj2 Teen Gohan: 200 In short: SSj2 Kid Gohan (Regular - unseen): 220 SSj2 Kid Gohan: 440 SSj2 Teen Gohan: 200 SSj2 Pre-Majin Vegeta: 389 SSj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta: 506 Edited by Clearin, Jan 11 2014, 08:41 PM.
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| + ThePrinceOfSaiyans | Jan 11 2014, 08:25 PM Post #11 |
魔王子
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SSJ2 Kid Gohan: 75 SSJ2 Gohan: 56 SSJ2 Vegeta: 64 Majin Vegeta: 80 SSJ2 Goku: 80 Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Jan 11 2014, 08:26 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 11 2014, 08:43 PM Post #12 |
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I still don't agree with that completely. Goku wanted to fuse with Fantastic Gohan at one point, after all, and that's certainly larger than the gap between the Super Saiyan 2s. |
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| + Kaboom | Jan 11 2014, 08:45 PM Post #13 |
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Well, maybe the definition of "similar in power" in this case is pretty loose. |
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| + Saiyan Paladin | Jan 11 2014, 10:07 PM Post #14 |
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I agree with most of what you said, the only thing I would have to argue is with your last point. I checked Herm's translations and found this Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2 Context: as Dabra fights Gohan Goku: “Magic, huh? He’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?” Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…” Goku: “He really did slack off!” Also, I'd like to point out I use the SEG multipliers so I have SSj2 as 2x SSj or 100x base. I know a lot of people here use different multipliers Another question I have (I'm full of them) would be, where do you think the SSj2's stood against Fat Buu? When Vegeta started fighting Fat Buu, he was dominating. Buu powered up and proceeded to pummel Vegeta, which made it look like Buu was leagues ahead of him. But, Vegeta was still in his SSj2 form after the beating. Weren't Goku and Vegeta knocked out of their SSj forms by 19 & 18? The way Buu pummeled Vegeta looked worse to me than what either of the Cyborgs did. Can anyone clear this up for me? Edited by Saiyan Paladin, Jan 11 2014, 10:16 PM.
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| + Kaboom | Jan 11 2014, 11:02 PM Post #15 |
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I've settled on using Bobbidi's power refill meter for Boo as an indicator of Boo's power, and I think it works. Gohan filled it up to almost half, and Vegeta and Goku are both a little stronger than Gohan, so Boo would be just about twice as strong as them and half as strong as SSJ3 Goku. I think having Boo right in-between those two levels of power fits well with the somewhat-admirable fight Vegeta put up against Boo, and Goku later admitting he could have beaten Fat Boo all along allows for it. SSJ2 Gohan: 4 SSJ2 Vegeta/Goku: 5 SSJ3 Goku: 20 Fat Boo: 10 |
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