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- Are the humans really that strong?
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| Are the humans really that strong? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 6 2014, 06:42 AM (3,495 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Jan 8 2014, 04:00 AM Post #46 |
 
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Yah, a lot of what I see is just disbelief and ignorance that maybe, perhaps Krillin really was the strongest, and Tenshinhan's personality uplifted him? |
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| Alex D. Boss | Jan 8 2014, 10:36 AM Post #47 |
 
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Tien beat Semi Perfect Cell Tien ~ Cell > 16 > Kamiccolo > 17 > 18 > SSJ's Tien was called a master by Buutenks Tien > SSJ3 Goku > > Majin Boo > Majin Vegeta > SSJ2 Gohan |
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| Hearts | Jan 8 2014, 12:04 PM Post #48 |
 
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THIS! This is how i see alot of "facts" being carrying around |
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| + Pyrus | Jan 8 2014, 03:35 PM Post #49 |
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Is that a jab at things you don't agree with, or some sarcasm? I can't tell. |
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| Hearts | Jan 8 2014, 04:21 PM Post #50 |
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Thats a jab at the whole fan theory thingy (including myself) One random sentence somewhere is suddenly turned into fact about something else |
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| + Majin Vegeta | Jan 8 2014, 06:30 PM Post #51 |
The resident GT fan!
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Well though powerscalling and some feats they have, it makes sense for them to be on that level, but I don't think there's any actual proof  .
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 "Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta | |
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| Mike XL | Jan 8 2014, 07:18 PM Post #52 |
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Tenshinhan and Krillen are strong, but obsolete because of SSJ, fusions, mergers, and whatnot. Krillen and Ten were probably somewhere around 10-20 mil in the Cell arch, and have haxed techniques, which makes them serviceable under the right conditions. Yamacha and Chaozu are totally useless, though. Edited by Mike XL, Jan 8 2014, 07:19 PM.
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| + Majin Vegeta | Jan 8 2014, 07:19 PM Post #53 |
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The resident GT fan!
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Why would the humans be so much high? 20 million is way to much for the humans, they don't have feats to be so high. |
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"Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta | |
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| Mike XL | Jan 8 2014, 07:23 PM Post #54 |
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Them showing up in the first place, Yamcha being way stronger than Gero thought Goku was, Gero wanted their energy to fight Vegeta, Tenshinhan keeping Chaozu back because he couldn't keep up, and it's a stretch I guess, but Tens Shin Kikoho. Even at 20 mil, the amp is mind bogglingly ridiculous, and is even more so at something like 500K. I think the Chaozu one is the most telling. |
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| + Majin Vegeta | Jan 8 2014, 07:30 PM Post #55 |
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The resident GT fan!
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-Showing up feats have nothing to do with strenght, Tien Ssjowed up against Buuhan does this mean he's relatively close? They showing up because they want to help as much as they can. -Well considering the highest battle power that was on Geros data was Vegetas 180.000 then its not much, plus after they sense he's power in the manga they clearly understand he's Yamcha, meaning he's weaker than the low limits they had -Gero was mostly counting on Piccolo he said it, and we clearly been shown that there won't be a difference -Tiens Kikoho is haxed unless you believe he's SSJ Vegeta tier -Why would the Chaotsu one been the last telling |
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"Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta | |
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| Muyasuki | Jan 8 2014, 11:04 PM Post #56 |
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I think I can give an answer for this one (given that I do think Krillin exceeds 20 million) for the humans. Even moreso since it seems that I rated the humans significantly higher than everyone else in this thread (28 687 500, 12 690 000 and 11 232 000). Even moreso given that, power wise, Tien and Yamcha are the biggest question marks in the cast. The last real showing for Tien and Yamcha was during the Saiyan fight. Their listed power levels of 1830 and 1470 worked as a good approximation of what their power level could have been around (maxed out). In order to gauge how much power they would have gained during their time at King Kai's, I used Goku's growth rate as a baseline. Since they were doing the same training Goku had previously done (and their history of making larger gains than Goku did performing the same training) it gave me the baseline for how much they could have increased their power level (44x (the gain Goku made from the Raditz fight to his Kaioken 3 self (I didn't include or taken into account x4 because it wasn't something he did or could maintain while on dead; it was a gamble))). From there, I also took into consideration that, unlike when Goku was there, there were more than one of them there (multiple partners increase gain, another possible reason they made larger gains than Goku did doing same training). Additionally to take into consideration (as well as limiting their amount of growth) was the fact that (unlike their previous periods of high training gains) there wasn't an imminent threat to the world (they didn't count on battling Frieza) nor was there marital arts tournament coming up (taking Dragonball's other reason for large training gains into account). The pair (as well as Chiaotzu) were unable to learn any of King Kai's techniques while dead (and, make no mistake about it, I have VERY little doubt that they DIDN'T spend quite a bit of time attempting to learn them). This, in addition to the previous notions, also lowers the amount of gain they'd be making here. The final reason for why I gave them those power levels were that it made accounting for their overall growth in the Android saga to be easier/smaller and I prefer smaller numbers. It also puts them a little closer to the others post Namek (though they're still severely outclassed) I ended up settling with Tien and Yamcha gaining double Goku's growth rate and Chiaotzu gaining 1.5x Goku's growth rate from where they approximately were during the Saiyan fight. Originally the numbers were lower for all three but that placed them WAY too far below the Namek 4 so I had to up it a little (from a narrative perspective, I gave higher gains than originally intended (approximately 50% more) due to it making accounting for their overall growth in the Android saga to be easier (as, otherwise, I have them making the largest gains of the cast outside of Piccolo and it just didn't make any sense to do that). It also puts them a little closer to the others post Namek (though they're still severely outclassed). Tien: 212 000 (211 154 rounded up) Yamcha: 198 000 (197 308 rounded up) Chiaotzu: 53 000 Yajirobe: 1250 This is what I got when I did the math originally for their power levels at revival (~88x). Yajoribe's was literally a guess (giving him a very minor gain from the Saiyan fight). Chiaotzu also had a lower gain from the training than Tien and Yamcha . Krillin was a little different given there was enough information given to get an approximate idea of where he was right before his death by Frieza. I had him stronger than he was at the beginning of the fight (due to Guru's potential unlock and the fact that both he and Gohan eventually able to follow Final Form Frieza's attacks/movements (Piccolo being able to due the same through getting a little stronger due to his body fully adjusting to the fusion with Nail is pretty much all I got) and the amount of power he (and Gohan) would have had to contribute to Piccolo for him to be able to distract Frieza for as long as he could while Goku got the Spirit Bomb ready while still having enough energy to fly and whatever. Krillin: 425 000 That is where I have him at the same time period for when I gave the other power levels at minimum. Krillin: 531 250 Tien: 235 000 Yamcha: 208 000 Chiaotzu: 59 000 Yajirobe: 1 500 That where I have them at Trunks' arrival (.25x gain for Krillin, ~.125x for the others) VERY minimal gains just based on maintaining shape while in prime, mixed with occasional training (during times of piece). I have Krillin making a slightly larger gain here due to his expressed wariness towards both Piccolo and Vegeta (especially with no Goku around) but its still affected by there being no imminent threat, just a potentially pending/delayed one. Krillin: 28 687 500 Tien: 12 690 000 Yamcha: 11 232 000 Chiaotzu: 2 360 000 Yajirobe: 26 250 That is where I see them at a minimum after the 3 year training for the Androids (~54x or ~9x per year). Based on approximate gains made between start of Dragonball Z and the Saiyan fight over three years (essentially their Kami training). Their gains this time were more than likely on par with or higher this time on a per year basis. Given that the training was off screen, you can't give gains much lower than this since you have to assume they did optimal training and you can't given them gains much higher than this given that whenever training explicitly noted to have given greater gains than normal, its commented upon. I'd also have little problem with decreasing those listed power levels by up to 50% (as it would still have them above where I think would be the absolute minimum for them to show up for the Android fight as support fighters (post Yardrat base Goku)). Come Buu Saga, I don't see anyone outside of Vegeta and Goku making large gains due to the established notion that NO ONE makes gains during times of peace. Vegeta and Goku being the exception in this case because it is explicitly stated to have gained strength. Gohan as well given that he provided the inverse and became weaker. Everyone else more than likely maintained their power level at the Cell Games or made VERY minimal gains (for Piccolo, relatively minimal gains). Feats wise, its really hard to use as conclusive evidence since, in most of the cases, you only really get implications. Not to mention that, even if they were all 5x as strong as the Base Saiyans, those exact same implications (not to mention their story roles) would have not changed in any manner. Edited by Muyasuki, Jan 8 2014, 11:08 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 9 2014, 02:26 AM Post #57 |
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Them showing up is not good evidence, as had been pointed out before.
Why are you using Kaio-ken at all? That's not Goku's latent power or anything. 8,000+ should be the baseline there.
Personally, I don't think you should use previous gains since each boost is plot-based and can be either higher or lower for no reason other than plot, making things inconsistent if trying to figure out a pattern. |
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| Muyasuki | Jan 9 2014, 07:51 AM Post #58 |
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I used the kaioken because it was the max power level he reached on the planet and, given the conversations in regard to when he pushed towards Kaioken x 4, I assumed that he spent quite a bit of time on the planet practicing with it. Thats the main reason I used it...the other was that, when I used 8500, they came out way too weak from a narrative perspective and then, to get them to the bare minimum of where I think they had to have reached for the Android saga, they ended up with making insanely large gains (resulting in everyone else making even larger gains and, given that I don't see the Base Saiyans surpassing Frieza until at least post-ROSAT, that was a problem). While I do acknowledge that gains are STRICTLY determined by the need of the plot (zenkais even moreso), the conditions were relatively similar enough to use what I used as a basis. |
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| + Majin Vegeta | Jan 12 2014, 08:17 PM Post #59 |
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The resident GT fan!
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I believe it pretty much depends on plot, I mean how can Goku have a Zenkai of 33x times? But when he trained in otherworld he barely made a 2x increase? Strange. |
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"Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta | |
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| Muyasuki | Jan 12 2014, 10:25 PM Post #60 |
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Zenkais don't make any sense. Whatsoever. You could see some sense of them early on (Vegeta seemed to get roughly the same percentage gain after his near death status after his fights with Goku and Zarbon, but come Ginyu Force...) but they quickly became used as a way to counterbalance the fact that Toriyama made the villians too strong. And even then, it only made sense if you consider Goku and Vegeta (and their children) to be the exception to the rule (i.e. zenkais made you a little stronger, not insanely stronger) and even that only applies after their fight with one another... Training gains (while still strictly determined by the necessity of the plot) were, at least, a little more understandable to figure out. |
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