Scottish Independence

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Scottish Independence
Tweet Topic Started: Nov 29 2013, 12:00 AM (1,028 Views)
+ Pelador	Nov 29 2013, 12:00 AM Post #1
Crazy Awesome Legend Posts: 25,663 Group: Legend Member #4,634 Joined: December 12, 2009 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime HunterxHunter What Browser do you use? Firefox Favourite Manga Dragonball	What would it mean for Scotland if they voted for independence from the UK? Would they be better off financially? Would they have to apply for E.U membership? Will they need a new currency? What happens to all the Scottish people living and working outside of Scotland? Does the act of gaining independence outweigh any of the other issues simply for democracy's sake? Is it all worth it? My opinion is divided. On the one hand I do think it's wrong that they have to be ruled by a Conservative government who they never vote for. I would like to them be a strong and independent country and do well. On the other hand I can see any attempt at independence being an absolute mess. That's not me looking down on Scotland thinking you're not smart enough to run your own nation effectively. That's me thinking that the process is so complex and potentially catastrophic that things would go wrong with any nation. I don't think it's worth the risk. Not at this point in time. Perhaps when the global economy stabilises more then they will be in a better position to set them selves up as their own nation? But maybe democracy is worth the risk and they should at least try? Well it's all very well trying but look at the cost if you fail. Another thing is that sometimes I get the sense that the movement isn't so much about independence as it is Alex Salmond jostling for power. Sometimes with this debate it seems like it's all about him. It's a bit sketchy in my opinion. I'm not sure if that's just me being paranoid about the whole thing being a ploy for him to gain more power or if it's a legitimate concern. Opinions please.
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* Light	Nov 29 2013, 06:50 PM Post #2
Yo Posts: 5,563 Group: Retired Staff Member #2,705 Joined: October 5, 2007 Gender Not Specified Country United Kingdom Favourite Manga The Story of Light the Legend by Cal/DBZF Invasion! by Copy_Ninja	I don't know enough about the financial set up of Scotland, the general consensus of their population or the implications to the rest of Britain if they were granted independence so I can't say if it's a good or bad move. I agree with what you've said about Salmond, not that it's definitely his motivation but here in Wales a lot of politicians call for independence to easy achieve recognition or support rather than in the interest of the country.



POOHEAD189	Nov 30 2013, 12:59 AM Post #3
Posts: 3,186 Group: Member Member #4,559 Joined: October 30, 2009 Favourite Anime Dragonball/Z Favourite Manga Dragonball	I have on good opinion from a Scottish lass that it would be a bad thing if they gained Independence. Travel would be much harder between Scotland and England, for one. Scotland would also need to hold it's own weight economically and that's not easy to do for a nation in debt, then again who isn't in debt these days?
	Tha gaol agam ort. <3


+ Pelador	Nov 30 2013, 01:17 AM Post #4
Crazy Awesome Legend Posts: 25,663 Group: Legend Member #4,634 Joined: December 12, 2009 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime HunterxHunter What Browser do you use? Firefox Favourite Manga Dragonball	A small country in debt with no experience dealing with Europe or the rest of the world. Not to mention tens of thousands currently working outside of Scotland who would have to return until they could acquire new Visas and passports. What happens with all the service personnel? They're going to lose their jobs that's what. There will be record levels of unemployment because there isn't enough work in Scotland. I mean what industries do they actually have? Fishing? Whiskey? Tourism? Not neearly enough to provide the work for the thousands of people who will have to leave the UK and also foreign shores.
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Meowth	Dec 3 2013, 12:59 AM Post #5
=._.= Posts: 130,670 Group: Princess Member #23 Joined: November 22, 2004 Gender Female Country United Kingdom Favourite Anime The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya What Browser do you use? FireFox Favourite Manga Fruits Basket	Alex Salmon is living in a fantasy world if he thinks this is feasible, if you look at the proposals, there's a lot of things that will cost money and not a whole lot on how to raise that money, they won't have the same level of support and income they get as being a part of the UK. The other thing is that he is expecting to take things he likes without giving anything in return, such as still wanting to use the Pound as currency and saying that if they aren't allowed to use the Pound then they won't take their share of national debt. Eitherway, splitting away from the UK would be a bad move for Scotland and I don't think the UK would fare much better.



TrunksinSwimmingTrunks	Dec 5 2013, 02:28 AM Post #6
Formerly known as daman Posts: 8,651 Group: Member Member #5,599 Joined: January 6, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country Canada Favourite Anime One Piece, Gintama, You and Me, Haibane Renmei, Initial D, FMAB, No. 6, Wtt NHK! , Dragon Ball What Browser do you use? Tortoises were made to live not be used. Stormo/Pedy/Nims/songohanfrancais whereru Favourite Manga Dorohedoro,IamaHero, Again!!, All Rounder Meguru,RRR,Berserk,Dragon Boru. Ninjajp/Slayerslice appeal	I'm not sure how you can claim Scotland has no experience in dealing with Europe. They have plenty of MEPS, and new countries join the EU every so often, so it's not like it's all that hard to effectively integrate. As far as visas and passports go you either don't know what you're talking about as far as that's concerned (not trying to be insulting), or you're just trying to scaremonger. At the moment the UK allows multiple citizenship, so Scottish people wouldn't have any period without a passport, unless the Scottish government decides they don't want their citizens to be allowed two passports, which they've already ruled out as can be seen here. And Scotland has jobs. There are jobs currently there. You think that they would just disappear? I don't see why independence itself would drive jobs away. Scotland produces more tax money for the UK government than is spent on Scotland by the UK government and produces more in taxes per capita than any region outside of London and the South East of England. As a percentage of the National Wealth of Scotland's debts are lower than the UK's debts. Scotland's debt would probably actually be more manageable than the UK's debt. Rogue Alex Salmon is living in a fantasy world if he thinks this is feasible, if you look at the proposals, there's a lot of things that will cost money and not a whole lot on how to raise that money, they won't have the same level of support and income they get as being a part of the UK. The other thing is that he is expecting to take things he likes without giving anything in return, such as still wanting to use the Pound as currency and saying that if they aren't allowed to use the Pound then they won't take their share of national debt. Eitherway, splitting away from the UK would be a bad move for Scotland and I don't think the UK would fare much better. What are the proposals that you mean? I doubt that any costs would be as crippling as you're making out. Really Scotland would not be in a worse off situation than the UK is financially even without the North Sea reserves being tapped into much, so I don't know why you're talking like they'd go broke. As for the Pound why should they not have it? Surely Scotland has a right to it as much as anyone else in the UK? Scottish people voted for the government that implemented the GBP, so it's a Scottish thing too. It wouldn't be a bad move for Scotland. They can easily afford to exist as an independent country since they already produce more tax person than the UK as a whole, and with independence all that money will go back into helping Scotland unlike how now a bit of it goes to other places in the UK. Add into that increased revenue from oil and gas and it's hard to see how Scotland wouldn't be better off. They'd also be run by a government that's less detached from them and would be less likely to damage local public services. If they can afford to survive separately and stop wasting money on London then they should go ahead and do it. I don't think it would be good for the UK, but the remainder of the UK would survive.
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Ben	Dec 6 2013, 05:25 AM Post #7
Posts: 564 Group: Donator Member #10,230 Joined: September 20, 2013 Gender Not Specified What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Here's a question for you Scots: Any chance they give the Georges the boot and put a Stuart back on the throne? This guy is the first Jacobite heir born in the UK since 1688 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Joseph_Wenzel_of_Liechtenstein



Meowth	Dec 13 2013, 11:26 PM Post #8
=._.= Posts: 130,670 Group: Princess Member #23 Joined: November 22, 2004 Gender Female Country United Kingdom Favourite Anime The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya What Browser do you use? FireFox Favourite Manga Fruits Basket	TrunksinSwimmingTrunks Dec 5 2013, 02:28 AM What are the proposals that you mean? I doubt that any costs would be as crippling as you're making out. Really Scotland would not be in a worse off situation than the UK is financially even without the North Sea reserves being tapped into much, so I don't know why you're talking like they'd go broke. Oil prices are dropping, so just relying on the income from oil isn't a smart idea, as well as the fact that oil will at some point run out, then what? A lot of the financial proposals detail things such as tax cuts, a lot of things that will cost money and there isn't much detail on how they will make that money back. Removing trident will also cost money to do as will making a postal service back in public ownership, it's a lot of spending. Quote: As for the Pound why should they not have it? Surely Scotland has a right to it as much as anyone else in the UK? Scottish people voted for the government that implemented the GBP, so it's a Scottish thing too. See, if you go independent from a country, you shouldn't get to pick and choose what you take with you, it's either full independence or not, if the rest of the UK votes against Scotland having the GBP then they shouldn't be allowed to have it, it's wrong to assume only the voice of Scotland counts, it affects the rest of the UK, the GBP is the currency of the UK and as such, if Scotland as an independent nation want to have it, they would have to reach agreement with the other countries. Quote: It wouldn't be a bad move for Scotland. They can easily afford to exist as an independent country since they already produce more tax person than the UK as a whole, and with independence all that money will go back into helping Scotland unlike how now a bit of it goes to other places in the UK. Add into that increased revenue from oil and gas and it's hard to see how Scotland wouldn't be better off. They'd also be run by a government that's less detached from them and would be less likely to damage local public services. If they can afford to survive separately and stop wasting money on London then they should go ahead and do it. I don't think it would be good for the UK, but the remainder of the UK would survive. Scotland would have to renegotiate all the treaties that exist with the UK, such as EU membership and NATO membership, it's a bad idea to assume, once again, that these things will be inherited. Just because the UK has something, doesn't mean Scotland as an independent nation will inherit it. They might get commonwealth membership and be able to have the queen as the head of state, but many other things would have to be renegotiated. And as a whole the UK is small, why make it smaller? On the world stage, it would just make Scotland and the UK seem smaller and therefor weaker, united is better, the whole notion of splitting from the UK seems to be a bad idea that would affect both sides and would benefit neither.



Zenet	Jan 6 2014, 11:18 PM Post #9
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	I think Scotland should be independent. Culturally the UK is not really a country it's more of an alliance between the countries each country has there own government except England and each is individually seen as independent apart from politically. Edited by Zenet, Jan 6 2014, 11:18 PM.



+ Byakko	Jan 7 2014, 10:57 AM Post #10
I once gave a Kangaroo a heart-attack just by staring at it Posts: 10,219 Group: Legend Member #158 Joined: February 7, 2005 Gender Male Favourite Anime Naruto Shippuuden What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Fullmetal Alchemist	This is something that I've been sitting on the fence of for the past six months or so. Currently, I lean towards a yes vote, but I have argued both sides. The problem, I think, that a lot of Scots have is there's a very romantic idea of "sticking it to the English" that I don't like. A lot of Scots want to be independent just because they don't like the English, over matters that have been settled hundreds of years ago. One of the reasons that I want to be independent is because it seems like England is very slowly annexing Scotland. 10 years ago the Scottish waters were at the physical border. 8 years ago it was moved up to St Andrews and then 3 years ago it was moved up to past Dundee. So, Scotland technically doesn't own all of the oil it's producing around it's own country (and the figures it would be producing aren't included in pro-Union campaigns). I think the Unionist campaigns are, in the first place, scare-mongering, as well. Most of them, anyway. Scotland's education system is one of the better in the world. Not on par with Finland and Japan, obviously, but still quite good and certainly far better than England. I was told that if I got an English degree and I was competing with somebody who had the same degree, but Scottish, the employer was more likely to take the Scot. England (maybe Wales and Ireland, too, but I'm not sure) lowers Scotland on academic polls. Almost every University in Scotland is among the best 25 in Britain. As for the pound thing. Scotland can have the pound if it wants. I don't want to have the Euro. We voted to keep it back when the Euro was implemented and by rights we should keep it. I can't count how many times I've been in England and a cashier wouldn't take my "weird Scottish money" anyway. There are certain countries (I think Norway is one of them but I can't remember cause I'm sleepy) in Europe who have expressly said they would like to trade with Scotland over England, as well.
	GFX Portfolio Tumblr DeviantArt Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'"


*Copy_Ninja*	Jan 7 2014, 11:30 AM Post #11
*Novacane for the pain* Posts: 8,033 Group: Guardian Member #6,499 Joined: July 18, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country None Favourite Anime Naruto, Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, Hunter x Hunter (2011) What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Monster, One Piece, Naruto, Fullmetal Alchemist, Hunter X Hunter, Death Note, SnK	Mega Sage Jan 6 2014, 11:18 PM each is individually seen as independent apart from politically. How the countries are seen as politically is the only relevant thing really. Whether Scotland becomes independent or not it's cultural identity will remain anyway. I must confess that the main reason I'd like to see this happen is because I'd be very interested to see how Scotland's entry in to the EU works. Unlike what some will have you believe it is most certainly not a cut and dry argument on either side. At the moment I'd be leaning slightly more towards saying they'd have to apply separately for EU membership but it'll probably come down to what the member states think would politically suit them the best (honestly it seems to be shaping us as Scotland vs Spain right now). Still if Scotland was held to be still part of the EU after independence it would set some precedent at International Law. Quote: The problem, I think, that a lot of Scots have is there's a very romantic idea of "sticking it to the English" that I don't like. A lot of Scots want to be independent just because they don't like the English, over matters that have been settled hundreds of years ago. There is a bit of this too unfortunately which is kind of ridiculous. People need to be more educated about this in general, independence is a pretty big deal that will effect the lives of Scottish people. Based on what I've read I think independence would probably be better for Scotland in the long run, though I don't really hold a strong position with that.
	We'll never be those kids again


SaiyanHajime	Jan 7 2014, 12:35 PM Post #12
Posts: 224 Group: Member Member #10,689 Joined: January 6, 2014 Gender Male Country United Kingdom Favourite Anime DBZ	When the EU happened, I was like "yay united and benefits from being so and yay happy families!" but it's caused problems. Romantically, I like the idea of a vast united nation, like the US has. I think it's incredible that so many cultures and landscapes can be whole. The problem is, it just doesn't... work? So, romantically, it upsets me that Scotland thinks we smell funny. But I also understand why they'd want to break away. I still think they shouldn't, though. I find it kind of sad Ireland doesn't want to play, either. But it's fine. We'll just hang out with Wales. See if we care. Wales is cool. Nothing to do there and they like to pretend they have a language so they're A LIL BIT CRAY but it's cool, we accept them. No one else would. I guess that's why they stick around... Edited by SaiyanHajime, Jan 7 2014, 12:37 PM.
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+ Steve	Jan 7 2014, 01:46 PM Post #13
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season. Posts: 19,471 Group: Legend Member #5,710 Joined: February 7, 2011 Gender Male Country United Kingdom Favourite Anime Hunter x Hunter(2011) What Browser do you use? Mozilla Firefox Favourite Manga Berserk all day erry day	Not so much on the point but how likely is this to happen? I didn't actually know the gravity or potential gravity of the situation until reading bits of this topic but now I see posts on Facebook every day about it that are clearly based on "We don't like England, independence!" these people obviously know nothing about what independence would change. I love Scotland but it's not hard to realize that in this day and age it's not that great a country, we don't have vast stocks of gold and rare materials throughout the land there isn't very much of anything other countries want. Export haggis and whiskey, yes that would support the whole country and all it's people.
	Definitely not a succubus, fear not


+ Byakko	Jan 7 2014, 02:19 PM Post #14
I once gave a Kangaroo a heart-attack just by staring at it Posts: 10,219 Group: Legend Member #158 Joined: February 7, 2005 Gender Male Favourite Anime Naruto Shippuuden What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Fullmetal Alchemist	Actually, Oil, Academics, and Tourism would be the sources of our economy. A lot of leading studies in regards to medicine and psychology are done in Scottish universities. People come from all over the world to learn here. Of course, some would say (and I agree) that Oil is a bit of a difficult thing to gauge because we don't know for sure how many oilfields there are off the coast of the North Sea. I would like to be independent because I don't feel like it matters what Scotland says politically. One constituency voted Conservative and we have a conservative government making our decisions for us. I can't stand Ed Milliband, David Cameron, or Nick Clegg. That said, I wouldn't want Alex Salmond, either.
	GFX Portfolio Tumblr DeviantArt Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'"


Meowth	Jan 8 2014, 11:18 PM Post #15
=._.= Posts: 130,670 Group: Princess Member #23 Joined: November 22, 2004 Gender Female Country United Kingdom Favourite Anime The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya What Browser do you use? FireFox Favourite Manga Fruits Basket	Byakko Jan 7 2014, 10:57 AM As for the pound thing. Scotland can have the pound if it wants. I don't want to have the Euro. We voted to keep it back when the Euro was implemented and by rights we should keep it. I can't count how many times I've been in England and a cashier wouldn't take my "weird Scottish money" anyway. Except it can't, if Scotland leaves and the rest of the union don't wish for Scotland to have that currency, they would have to either form their own or join the EU/Euro, it can be pegged on the market to the GBP but that doesn't mean they could use it as their currency. All the countries I looked up that have gained independence have changed their currency from what they split from, look at the Republic of Ireland, they had the Irish Dollar before the Euro. You can't pick and choose what you want when it comes to full independence, it's very much about negotiation, making assumptions is a very dangerous place to be.



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