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Ssj2 teen gohan vs pre majin ssj2 vegeta
Topic Started: Nov 23 2013, 04:54 PM (1,529 Views)
+ Ssj3vegito96 Nov 23 2013, 08:21 PM Post #16
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 Oh I know what you mean. His normal ki blasts are strong but he can't amplify his kamehameha that much. Is there anyone else in the series that's also like that? Or is everyone else's amplification pretty much the same?
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lunar2 Nov 23 2013, 10:14 PM Post #17
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 past the frieza arc, pretty much everyone can amp their attacks. cell is likely the last opponent that couldn't.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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Super Janemba Nov 23 2013, 11:27 PM Post #18
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 Pre Majin SSJ2 Vegeta loses because he's much weaker than Kid SSJ2 Gohan who's close to Majin SSJ2 Vegeta.
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+ Ssj3vegito96 Nov 24 2013, 12:48 AM Post #19
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lunar2
Nov 23 2013, 10:14 PM
past the frieza arc, pretty much everyone can amp their attacks. cell is likely the last opponent that couldn't.
What I meant was can everyone else amp their blasts the same amount
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* Ketchup Revenge Nov 24 2013, 01:24 AM Post #20
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

 I don't understand why everyone is practically stating that Goku and (Majin) Vegeta aren't that much higher than Cell Era Gohan. We have absolutely no context to measure them against that Gohan, and Gohan during the Tenkaichi Budokai was never proven to be weaker than his Cell Games self.

The only thing that can be said is that he wasn't pissed when Vegeta made the observation about his power in SSj2, therefore Vegeta's statement about him being weaker than his Cell Games self can't be truly validated as certain.

I personally believe that SSj2 Cell Era Gohan wasn't really that much stronger than pre Majin SSj2 Vegeta, because I really don't think that the Majin Boost really made him that much stronger than his pre-Majin self. If Gohan was stronger, it was only by a slight amount. Vegeta's battle experience and extensive training with enhanced gravity is not something to take lightly. This would be a close fight, but I really think that Gohan's victory would be because of his sadism and rage, not his over-all training and power.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, Nov 24 2013, 01:39 AM.
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EMIYA Nov 24 2013, 01:50 AM Post #21
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 You could still argue rivaling range if you wish, but I think the mere fact that Gohan is at least implied to be near Majin Vegeta speaks volumes. Its made pretty clear that until he achieved his charm, Vegeta was outclassed by Goku. This is a fair difference between someone (Gohan) who is stated to be potentially around Majin Vegeta, compared to someone (Vegeta) who is outright outclassed by a person equal (Goku) to Majin Vegeta's power.
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lunar2 Nov 24 2013, 02:53 AM Post #22
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 except gohan is not close to majin vegeta. you have to take into account that piccolo does not do well sensing powers higher than himself. the fact that he can tell the difference in powers between ssj2 gohan and ssj2 vegeta when both are around 10x as powerful as himself shows that there is a sizable difference between the two.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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EMIYA Nov 24 2013, 03:21 AM Post #23
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 Even before Piccolo's remark, there's subtle instances of Vegeta having not surpassed Kid Gohan until the Majin Charm.

1.) When Goku uses his burst against Yakon, this is enough to prove to Vegeta that Goku has surpassed him. Yet its not until Goku powers up to his full power that Vegeta notes that he's surpassed Gohan.

SSJ2 Goku (Full Power)>SSj2 Kid Gohan>~SSJ2 Goku (Burst)>SSJ2 Vegeta


2.) Then there's Vegeta remark to Gohan earlier in the series. Stating that before there was a large gap between them but since Gohan has slacked off for seven years straight, he wonders what kind of gap there is now. If Vegeta had already surpassed Kid Gohan's power at the time, then there'd be no reason to wonder. He'd already know he was stronger but instead specifically wonders the kind of gap between them.

Piccolo's line just sort of adds more to that point. It's another indication of the comparison between Kid Gohan and SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta. It's much like how Dabura's statements pretty much indicate that the Base Saiyans>Piccolo, though where as Dabura's statements are sometimes left with contradictions within them, there's really no contradictions before or after Piccolo's remark.

At most, its left a bit vaguer than Vegeta's statement which is outright certain that Goku is stronger where as Piccolo's is a bit more unsure.
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* Ketchup Revenge Nov 24 2013, 03:28 AM Post #24
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
Sir Brofist
Nov 24 2013, 01:50 AM
You could still argue rivaling range if you wish, but I think the mere fact that Gohan is at least implied to be near Majin Vegeta speaks volumes. Its made pretty clear that until he achieved his charm, Vegeta was outclassed by Goku. This is a fair difference between someone (Gohan) who is stated to be potentially around Majin Vegeta, compared to someone (Vegeta) who is outright outclassed by a person equal (Goku) to Majin Vegeta's power.
All that's implied is that Goku is "at least" stronger than Gohan was against Cell, but is a vague range at best, especially by Boo Saga power tier standards.

Vegeta's never shown to have much, if any latent ki, so what makes us believe that his Majin would be that much stronger than his pre-Majin SSj2? Given how few times he's been seen to bring forth latent power, (and by few times, I mean almost never), I find it quite difficult to believe that his Majin possession would've made him leagues stronger than his previous self, which everyone seems to be suggesting. Goku was also surprised at how far Vegeta had come in the past seven years, making no indication that Vegeta's power up from Majin had anything to do with Goku's indication of surprise. Trunks also makes no indication of Vegeta's power getting noticeably bigger, and he'd trained with him consistently for at least a month prior to the Tenkaichi Budokai.
So in other words, no one at any point in time makes any indication that Vegeta had gotten noticeably stronger from being possessed. The only person that implies this is Bobbidi, who said that he was unlocking Vegeta's latent ki (which we don't know how much he had), and Vegeta himself, of whom only did it when he realized that Goku too had reached SSj2. Vegeta's knowledge of Goku's power in SSj2 was a guess at best (prior to his transformation against Majin Vegeta), and given his prior knowledge of Goku surpassing him at every level Vegeta had achieved, you can understand Vegeta's assumption that he was inferior to Goku. This however, still does nothing to compare his prior Majin self to Gohan.

In addition to this, there's not that much of a difference that can be seen between his Majin SSj2 and his post revival SSj2 (against Kid Boo), in which most people believe that he lost the access to the reserve he'd had unlocked when he was possessed. He did no training that we are aware of while dead, and had only fought as Vegetto and individually inside Boo's head. So there's no room for any real improvement in his powerscale.

Unless of course, everything that we think we know about him loosing his Majin power after death is wrong.
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Super Gohan Nov 24 2013, 03:33 AM Post #25
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Vegeta SSj4
Nov 23 2013, 07:40 PM
No tha blast was having a very low amp,just think about this:Gohan was at 50% of he's power and he's blast was almost equal to Cells,normally Cells blast should have obliterated Gohan out of existence from the very beginning,the amps of he's attacks are from the saiyan saga,which means they are super low :)


No. Gohan’s power visibly increases from Goku’s encouragement, he was able to match Cell’s Kamehameha as a result of that; his Ki was only stated to be at about half prior to then when he had lost hope.

There’s nothing wrong with Cell’s Kamehameha. He’s shown to be as proficient with the technique as Goku and Gohan. If this whole “amplification” issue stems from Piccolo’s comments on the attack during their first encounter, it merely expresses how they must continually refine the technique to suit their power growth; the Kamehameha alone doesn’t automatically harness it. As Goku establishes in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai with the “Super Kamehameha”, a new version is always developed to replace the previous one. Adding the “Super” label each time just gets redundant. Cell demonstrates to be more than capable of adapting the technique to his power later on.
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lunar2 Nov 24 2013, 04:37 AM Post #26
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Sir Brofist
Nov 24 2013, 03:21 AM
Even before Piccolo's remark, there's subtle instances of Vegeta having not surpassed Kid Gohan until the Majin Charm.

1.) When Goku uses his burst against Yakon, this is enough to prove to Vegeta that Goku has surpassed him. Yet its not until Goku powers up to his full power that Vegeta notes that he's surpassed Gohan.

SSJ2 Goku (Full Power)>SSj2 Kid Gohan>~SSJ2 Goku (Burst)>SSJ2 Vegeta


2.) Then there's Vegeta remark to Gohan earlier in the series. Stating that before there was a large gap between them but since Gohan has slacked off for seven years straight, he wonders what kind of gap there is now. If Vegeta had already surpassed Kid Gohan's power at the time, then there'd be no reason to wonder. He'd already know he was stronger but instead specifically wonders the kind of gap between them.

Piccolo's line just sort of adds more to that point. It's another indication of the comparison between Kid Gohan and SSJ2 Goku/Majin Vegeta. It's much like how Dabura's statements pretty much indicate that the Base Saiyans>Piccolo, though where as Dabura's statements are sometimes left with contradictions within them, there's really no contradictions before or after Piccolo's remark.

At most, its left a bit vaguer than Vegeta's statement which is outright certain that Goku is stronger where as Piccolo's is a bit more unsure.
well, to clarify my position on this

i have

piccolo 1

base gohan 1

base vegeta 1.3

base gohan (cell) 1.3

base goku 2

ssj gohan 3.2

ssj vegeta/cell gohan 4.2

ssj goku 6.3

ssj2 gohan 10

ssj2 vegeta/cell gohan 13

ssj2 goku 20

so i have vegeta roughly equal with cell games gohan, not surpassing him. the reason he got so mad when he saw goku with ssj2 is because he already knew from goku's exchange with yakon in base that goku was stronger than himself. so seeing goku go ssj2 at all lets vegeta know that he has still been surpassed by goku. he didn't say anything about goku's exact power until later because that's when he actually saw goku's power. but he comments that that power is what he expected to see. so vegeta isn't surprised that goku is so strong then, not after seeing his fight with yakon.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Majin Vegeta Nov 24 2013, 11:04 AM Post #27
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The resident GT fan!
Ssj3vegito96
Nov 24 2013, 12:48 AM
lunar2
Nov 23 2013, 10:14 PM
past the frieza arc, pretty much everyone can amp their attacks. cell is likely the last opponent that couldn't.
What I meant was can everyone else amp their blasts the same amount
No all the fighters can amp there attacks greatly but android saga and above ^_^
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