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Was Cell toying with Goku or was he giving it his all?
Topic Started: Nov 19 2013, 08:03 PM (2,824 Views)
Hurry My Curry
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Master Troll

I feel that a real life example applies here.

When I was younger, I had a part time job teaching younger kids the fundamentals of basketball. At the end of the practices, we would do a little practice game. I would play on the team that had less kids to make it "fair". Obviously, I'm not going 100% -> Cell isn't at full power versus Goku.

However, regardless of what level I am playing at, am I really putting in 100% effort? Am I going after every loose ball? Jumping for all the rebounds? No, of course not, I'm using less effort in order to make it fair and interesting for the kids -> Cell is suppressed and not going all out.
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SSJ
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It should be mentioned that not going all out is not the same thing as toying though. Cell was still trying hard at the level he was at.
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Hurry My Curry
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Master Troll

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Cell was still trying hard at the level he was at
.

This is where I disagree. If Cell has the gigantic power advantage over Goku, how is he going to just stop himself from not KOing?

When I play one on one basketball with someone that isn't quite as good as me, I can mess around at first, but if they start scoring points on me, I have to actually try. Even though I may be the better player, I still have to increase my effort in order to win.

A solid example of this is the beginning of the fight with Cell and Goku. IIRC, Goku is getting a few shots on Cell. Cell realizes he can't just totally relax, he has to up his power/effort. When he does that, IIRC, Goku pretty much lands nothing on him rest of fight.
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SSJ
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Goku starts landing nothing after the Instant KHH when his energy was depleting. Cell was still trying though, I don't really think that can be denied. It was still semi-even until Goku's energy began to drain faster than Cell's. Biz's chart had good power levels for them both.

Goku: 50
Cell: 58

Cell wasn't so much stronger than Goku that he could relax, meaning that he was still going hard for the level of power he was using. For example, Goku vs Yakon. He was only bursting his SSJ 2 power, and likely holding back. At the same time though, he was still trying hard to kill Yakon and maintain his transformation. That doesn't mean he was toying with Yakon because he wasn't at full power.
Edited by SSJ, Nov 20 2013, 02:12 AM.
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lazerbem
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SuperSaiyan2
Nov 20 2013, 02:09 AM
Goku starts landing nothing after the Instant KHH when his energy was depleting. Cell was still trying though, I don't really think that can be denied. It was still semi-even until Goku's energy began to drain faster than Cell's. Biz's chart had good power levels for them both.

Goku: 50
Cell: 58

Cell wasn't so much striker than Goku that he could relax, meaning that he was still going hard for the level of power he was using. For example, Goku vs Yakon. He was only bursting his SSJ 2 power, and likely holding back. At the same time though, he was still trying hard to kill Yakon and maintain his transformation. That doesn't mean he was toying with Yakon because he wasn't at full power.
No, right after Goku uses Instant Transmission to escape Cell's Kamehameha, he gets tooled. He only lands 3 hits after that, a kick to the face, the Instant Transmission Kamehameha, and the Super Energy Wave Volley. Meanwhile, Cell is moving faster than Goku can track with his arms crossed and poking fun at Goku. My favorite line is right after he goes behind Goku, he says "I think I'm pretty fast myself, even if I can't teleport".

What I can't emphasize enough is that he has his arms crossed, one does not simply do that if they were trying hard.
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Hurry My Curry
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I don't really know how you'd express the gap numerically, haven't been in the loop for a while, ya know?

Clearly, Cell and Goku are close in power. Cell probably has a slight edge in power, no questioning that.

My point was that, I don't see how you can fight all out (in terms of effort) without increasing your actual power in regards to Cell. If you're putting all your effort into something, you'd be doing it at the highest level you can.
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lazerbem
Nov 20 2013, 02:13 AM
SuperSaiyan2
Nov 20 2013, 02:09 AM
Goku starts landing nothing after the Instant KHH when his energy was depleting. Cell was still trying though, I don't really think that can be denied. It was still semi-even until Goku's energy began to drain faster than Cell's. Biz's chart had good power levels for them both.

Goku: 50
Cell: 58

Cell wasn't so much striker than Goku that he could relax, meaning that he was still going hard for the level of power he was using. For example, Goku vs Yakon. He was only bursting his SSJ 2 power, and likely holding back. At the same time though, he was still trying hard to kill Yakon and maintain his transformation. That doesn't mean he was toying with Yakon because he wasn't at full power.
No, right after Goku uses Instant Transmission to escape Cell's Kamehameha, he gets tooled. He only lands 3 hits after that, a kick to the face, the Instant Transmission Kamehameha, and the Super Energy Wave Volley. Meanwhile, Cell is moving faster than Goku can track with his arms crossed and poking fun at Goku. My favorite line is right after he goes behind Goku, he says "I think I'm pretty fast myself, even if I can't teleport".

What I can't emphasize enough is that he has his arms crossed, one does not simply do that if they were trying hard.

True, and I don't deny that Cell was always a step or two ahead of Goku, but if he was going to toy with Goku he would have been at full power, not a rivalling gap.
Hurry My Curry
Nov 20 2013, 02:15 AM
I don't really know how you'd express the gap numerically, haven't been in the loop for a while, ya know?

Clearly, Cell and Goku are close in power. Cell probably has a slight edge in power, no questioning that.

My point was that, I don't see how you can fight all out (in terms of effort) without increasing your actual power in regards to Cell. If you're putting all your effort into something, you'd be doing it at the highest level you can.

I see it more like Cell made his suppressed state his permanent power for the fight. He was consistently losing stamina as noted by Goku, and he could have powered up. He allowed Goku to stay in the fight by fighting in this "semi-permanent" power level. I don't necessarily think it means he was playing around.
Edited by SSJ, Nov 20 2013, 02:19 AM.
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I think at the state Cell has he was definently giving he's all on Goku lets not forget he still had a power advantge on him :)
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Like SSJ2 said, he's giving it all in his supressed state.

He doesn't use his full power until he's getting his rear end handed to him by SSJ2 Gohan.
Edited by Yusuke, Nov 20 2013, 07:32 PM.
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Pride
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It doesn't make sense that he was giving it his all at the same time as holding back......... think about it

Frieza lowered himself to a rivaling gap to Goku if I remember correctly, and clearly he was toying with him.
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SSJ
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So you think Freeza was toying when he almost had his arm blown off? I don't think so. Freeza had to put all of his power into stopping Goku's blast.
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Hurry My Curry
Nov 20 2013, 02:15 AM
I don't really know how you'd express the gap numerically, haven't been in the loop for a while, ya know?

Clearly, Cell and Goku are close in power. Cell probably has a slight edge in power, no questioning that.

My point was that, I don't see how you can fight all out (in terms of effort) without increasing your actual power in regards to Cell. If you're putting all your effort into something, you'd be doing it at the highest level you can.
what they are saying is that cell is only putting as much ki into it as goku is, but he's doing everything he can with that level of ki.

which he clearly wasn't doing, because he wasn't even using his hands at one point. at the beginning of the fight, we know he was specifically holding back speed.

so no, cell was not going all out against goku even at that level of power, and he certainly still had power left in reserve.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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lunar2
Nov 21 2013, 02:59 AM
Hurry My Curry
Nov 20 2013, 02:15 AM
I don't really know how you'd express the gap numerically, haven't been in the loop for a while, ya know?

Clearly, Cell and Goku are close in power. Cell probably has a slight edge in power, no questioning that.

My point was that, I don't see how you can fight all out (in terms of effort) without increasing your actual power in regards to Cell. If you're putting all your effort into something, you'd be doing it at the highest level you can.
what they are saying is that cell is only putting as much ki into it as goku is, but he's doing everything he can with that level of ki.

I know what they're saying, but it just doesn't make sense to me that you can go all out in effort without going all out in power.
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Pride
Nov 21 2013, 01:28 AM
It doesn't make sense that he was giving it his all at the same time as holding back......... think about it

Frieza lowered himself to a rivaling gap to Goku if I remember correctly, and clearly he was toying with him.
Ok, think off it like this. An example being the fight between ssj2 Goku and Majin Vegeta in the Buu Arc. These to were evenly match, with Majin Vegeta slightly having the edge, slightly. Goku was taking severe damage and was losing energy rapidly. In his ssj2 state he was just even with Majin Vegeta but is that still to say that he was holing back just because he didn't use ssj3, No. If he'd used ssj3 then he would be at max power. You can give 100% effort without going full power, if that makes any sense. This is the same with Cell. Cell suppressed his power to a state so that Goku could be a match for him. In this suppressed state Goku was able to to deal damage to him making Cell have to Try. Now if Cell increased his power to 100% then the scales would tip over drastically. Cell could even decrease his power to state beneath Goku's, in which Goku would be able to smash him about.. Think of it like PLs. Whoever has the highest Wins.

Freeza suppressed himself and used 2-3% of his power hence Goku was ablke to keep up with him and give him a hard time. At this suppressed state Goku can possible do damage to him e.g. the two footed kick to Freeza's face in which Frieza mentioned that was the first time he felt pain, but when he increased his power to 50% he started smashing Goku around. At this instance he was toying with a s he was only using 50% of hist total power, which was quite far away from Goku's max.

Toying implies that the person is not tang the other person seriously. In Cells's case, he was.
Edited by AvatarReiko, Jan 24 2014, 10:11 AM.
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The Dragon Slayer
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Cell was never,ever toying,the only one he toyed with is vegeta.
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