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- If Vegito is stronger than a SS4
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| If Vegito is stronger than a SS4 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 10 2013, 04:22 AM (2,769 Views) | |
| EMIYA | Nov 15 2013, 07:59 PM Post #16 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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There's not much to interpretation when the line is "I've never felt a ki as terrifying as this..." or whatever said line might have been. It shows that Super Baby Vegeta's power has easily eclipsed anything seen in the series so far. Goku, with knowledge on Super Vegetto's power looks at SBII, ****s his pants and remarks said line. Baby Vegeta then goes through another transformation and then upon going SSJ4, Goku easily eclipses everything Baby threw at him including tanking a Revenge Death Ball with his face. And then Oozaru Baby Vegeta starts beating the crap out of SSj4 Goku, tanks a KHH to the face and then even after Goku's energy has been restorted still puts up a fight. You literally can't have Super Vegetto>SSj4 Goku~Oozaru Baby Vegeta>>Baby Vegeta II>Baby Vegeta I when a direct statement indicates that SBVI has surpassed everyone and has the greatest ki Goku's ever felt. You just can't, it's a contradiction to the notions. If Goku had said "wowzers, that ki is incredible" or "Whoa, that's one of the biggest kis I've ever felt" it would remain vague enough to fit in different places. But when you said "the most powerful" or "I've never felt something as great" or in whatever way of such sort indicate specific points. So its either you take the quotes from GT while ignoring whatever is said in a guidebook of the contrary, or you take whats said in the guidebook while ignoring the quote in the anime. Because unfortunately there's too much of a contradiction to have them both fitting in at one point unless the original line is changed to become less specific. |
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Nov 15 2013, 08:01 PM Post #17 |
 
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and that's why we take primary canon over secondary canon Seeing as the primary canon(DBGT) said the statemenet first the secondary canon(The guidebook) contradicts what was shown in the show |
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| + Pyrus | Nov 15 2013, 08:03 PM Post #18 |
 
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That doesn't work, ma'am. |
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| + Kaboom | Nov 15 2013, 09:13 PM Post #19 |
 
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*Ahem* Spoiler: click to toggle What "can't" we do, know? These "strongest I've ever felt/seen/met statements obviously do not necessarily include the person saying them. Goku was Vegetto. Thus Vegetto is not necessarily included in Goku's awestruck assessment of Baby-Vegeta. The only thing we could feasibly claim as fact from that line is that Baby-Vegeta's stronger than Gohan-Boo. Yet there was more than likely a VERY wide gap between Gohan-Boo's power and Super Vegetto's full power (especially by the anime's version of things). Feasibly enough space for Baby-Vegeta and SSJ4 Goku to fit within. Meaning that yes, it's entirely possible for Super Vegetto to be on-par with or even stronger than a Super Saiyan 4 as the book says. This argument of "Goku said THIS and I'm'a insist it has to mean THIS and so THIS is impossible silly guidebook warble warble" is empty. If you want to satiate that deep, piercing drive to disagree with a guidebok, I'd recommend finding a better reason to do so. Perhaps I could make a suggestion or two? Maybe you could argue that there's not a wide enough power gap between Gohan-Boo and Super Vegetto to "fit" Baby's three subsequent forms. Or you could claim the guidebook is for some reason only referring to a hypothetical Super Saiyan 4 from DBZ instead of GT. Both of those are kind of dumb as well, but they'd at least be more interesting to approach than taking one line and stretching it to an unnecessary extreme. Edited by Kaboom, Nov 15 2013, 09:16 PM.
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Nov 15 2013, 09:41 PM Post #20 |
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well to be fair did goku even form to be vegito at that time? |
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| + Kaboom | Nov 15 2013, 09:49 PM Post #21 |
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The images I posted were just an example of how "strongest I've ever felt" statements don't have to apply to the person saying them. |
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Nov 15 2013, 10:24 PM Post #22 |
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yes i understand that but how do we know Vegito even existed at that point in time in that movie or even if Vegito ever existed at all? |
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| EMIYA | Nov 15 2013, 10:55 PM Post #23 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Here's the difference between your "Movie 12" statement and the statement in GT. There's enough context in movie 12 to remain vague enough on whether Goku is referring to the likes of Fat Boo who Janemba takes many qualities from, or if he's talking about Initial Super Boo, whom at this point has been well aware of in the manga and considering SSJ Gotenk and the Kamikaze ghosts are part of the movie, this becomes obvious. In GT, Vegetto and all that stuff are already well known and that statement is still made. Being a composite of Vegetto, there is absolutely no reason for Goku to not know about Vegetto's power. Therefore, there is no reason to say "This is the strongest ki I've ever felt..." if it was not the strongest ki they ever felt. Its a pointless claim and unlike movie 12, there's no context that says Goku might be talking about different forms or something. Goku and more importantly Toei Animation are well aware of Vegetto. They still made that statement. Its actually quite simple. Strongest ki=strongest fighter. The strongest fighter that was known until Baby Vegeta came along was Super Vegetto. Therefore by line is a clear indication that SBVII>Super Vegetto. If SBVII is weaker than Vegetto, than obvious SBVII does not have the strongest ki ever felt by Goku. Saying Goku doesn't know Vegetto's power is conjecture with utterly nothing to back it up. Several points however do back up Goku knowing Vegetto's power most notably the fact that he was a part of Vegetto with the same exact mind and memories of him. For example, when Goku and Vegeta unfuse inside Boo, they clearly still have their memories of Vegetto and everything about him. They aren't awestruck wondering where they are or how they got in Boo. The memories still remained. Once again, this makes very logical sense because Vegetto is the same entity as Goku and Vegeta. Same reason why Goten and Trunks don't lose their memories when Gotenks' unfuses. --- ---
Goku makes a line, he states that Super Baby Vegeta II has the greatest ki he's ever felt. At this point we know that SBVII>Anyone else and so we go into context. Who does "Anyone" else include. We look around and we find the second strongest stronger person that Goku is knowledgeable about. We see that this is Super Vegetto. SBVII>Super Vegetto. Now you can make up some huge conjecture that Goku doesn't know Vegetto's power (despite literally being him) but good luck proving that. Great: An indication of something large, whether this is a physical, mental, social, etc something. Its defines something large, powerful. Example: Goku: Wow, Freeza has a great ki, I hope I can beat him." This statement indicates only an adjective of Freeza's ki. What is Freeza's ki? It's great, that's it. Greater: An indication that something is larger (once more how that term large is used depends on the context. For sake of things here, we'll keep it with ki) than something else. Example: Goku: Whoa! Cooler's ki is even larger than Freeza's!" This statement shows us that Cooler's ki is greater, thus larger, in this term of context stronger than. It is by definition a comparison between two things. Greatest: To be of the highest quality (Once more what this quality is depends on what the context is talking about. For us, it'll mean the highest quality of ki) Example: Whoa! I've never felt a ki as great as this (Though the term greatest is not used here, the wording use between "as great" and "greatest" are obviously the same. Because obviously if there was a ki that Goku knew of that was as great or greater than the ki he felt...this his statement falls apart. Why? Because by definition Goku has felt a ki as great as whatever one he's comparing too and thus a line of "I've never felt a ki this great..." loses its meaning. Therefore here's what you get. "I've never felt a ki as great as this..." This indicates that SBVII has the greatest ki Goku has ever felt. Because if Goku has felt a ki as great as SBVII much less a ki even stronger than that, his statement is flushed down the toilet. Pick up a dictionary, you might learn something. EDIT: Its like if I went up and saw some guy lifting up 300lbs and then went to a guy lifting up 200lbs and said "Wow, I've never seen a guy lift that much weight before." My statement is kind of redunadant and false because I have clearly seen a guy lift that much weight and more from before. Edited by EMIYA, Nov 15 2013, 10:59 PM.
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| + Steve | Nov 15 2013, 11:05 PM Post #24 |
Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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If you're going by the anime I can't see how Vegito wouldn't win. In base he pushes back Buu's massive energy ball, which IIRC was said to be able to blow up the galaxy or something, he done that in base(in the anime) Also the anime never says Kid Buu > Buuhan...I really don't get why people say that. "i can't tell if he's stronger now or weaker!" Not "He's far stronger than ever before!" Anyway I can't see how SSj4 > Vegito If you took Vegeta and Goku from GT and fused them in to Super Vegito, he would be superior to Goku(who can somehow exist) going SSj4. The only reason I see SSj4 > Vegito is by the users being much more powerful than they were in Z, not that the form itself gives a greater boost than the Potara fusion. OP never actually says just SSj Vegito anyway, we don't know either way for sure but it's quite certain Vegito could go SSj3 if he had wanted to. Considering Goten and Trunks, neither of whom can go SSj3, could while fused, it's safe to assume Vegito, who is half someone who can actually turn SSj3 could also do it. Highly doubt SSj4 > SSj3 Vegito I mean you have SSj Vegito as he is, then the SSj2 boost and then the SSj3 boost. No way would SSj4 top those 2 boosts. |
 Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| EMIYA | Nov 15 2013, 11:11 PM Post #25 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I know that in the original Japanese, Boo doesn't take the fight with Base Vegetto seriously and even after his ball gets kicked into the air, he still remains very confident. What some of the liens said I don't remember much nor do I have the capabilities to find out right now so someone else will have to deal with that.
During his battle with Kid Boo, Goku directly states that Kiddy had surpassed the levels of all the other Boo's seen thus far. A contradictory statement obviously but its clear what the intention of the statement was. Now as Vegetto is being compared, I'm pretty sure where in the indication of a Z Vegetto not a GT Vegetto. Although there is evidence to support SSJ4>SSj3 Z Vegetto depending on your amps, the main statement really only defines to Super Vegetto as this is obviously the "strongest ki" Goku has currently felt. |
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| + Steve | Nov 15 2013, 11:29 PM Post #26 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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I don't remember Goku saying that in the anime, I'll have to watch it again. I remember something along those lines but I took it as Kid Buu being on another level because he's so different in personality to the others, completely ruthless, crazy and child like. Not that he was more powerful. Which makes sense. Do you really feel your own Ki though? Of course you can feel how powerful you are but you don't feel it in third person, it would feel far more terrible to those around you than yourself. So Goku would have experienced such power but never felt it in third person, meaning it's more powerful than anything he's come across. If he was comparing it to Vegito's power I'm sure he would have just said "Woah, he's even stronger than when me and Vegeta fused!" Also isn't movie 12 in an alternate universe? I thought that one is set in a universe where Gotenks killed Fat Buu, which is why Vegeta was dead. Meaning Vegito never existed at that point so really the Ki Goku was comparing Janemba to would be Fat Buu or Gotenks. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| EMIYA | Nov 15 2013, 11:37 PM Post #27 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I'm not entirely sure what he says in the English Dub says. The Japanese though is pretty clear. It's like "This boo is the strongest, fastest, most awesomest sauce Boo ever..." It does all it can to make sure Kiddy and Goku are the top dogs. I'm sure someone like KP can provide the exact quote though since I unfortunately can't.
You'd have to find an example of where when someone was fused together and once separated, the two individuals were not knowledgeable about the whole being. In short, you have to find evidence that Goku is not aware of Vegetto's power.
That's kind of the same thing as what Goku says. Super Vegetto is the strongest ki Goku has logically felt. Therefore saying the line "I've never felt a ki as large as this..." sort of indicates that this specific ki has surpassed the second largest ki Gou felt.
Movie 12 has a lot of vague contexts to it, I was just mentioning the other points as options since unlike in GT where the strongest ki is clearly Vegetto. There's enough vagueness in Movie 12 to decipher between different aspects. |
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| + Steve | Nov 15 2013, 11:55 PM Post #28 |
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Greetings. I will be your waifu this season.
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Well, there's no evidence to suggest he does know Vegito's power either so could go either way. Obviously Goku and Vegeta had memories of being Vegito but it's not really possible to tell whether or not they remember everything. Personally I think them remembering is just kind of a plot hole but trying to work some sense out of it, maybe they only remember just before becoming unfused. I'm sure they would have been bickering about how they should have just killed Buu right away for ages or that it was weird being candy if they remembered everything. Given that the memories of one being would be getting split in to two people it's likely the memories were somewhat broken. Still though I don't think anyone knew about Vegito in movie 12. To me it seems like Fat Janemba was just ever so slightly ahead of Fat Buu and Super Janemba the same as Super Buu(who had never existed in their world) That or Super Janemba wasn't much stronger if at all just condensed and smarter not just random. Considering Goku takes hits from him and also doesn't get cut in half by the blade I doubt Janemba was > Vegito Especially since that would mean Gogeta >>> Vegito since he one shots Janemba. |
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Definitely not a succubus, fear not | |
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| EMIYA | Nov 16 2013, 12:01 AM Post #29 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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the likes of Saikyo No Gohan, SSJ3 Gotenks, Potara or Vegetto never even existed in movie 12 or are even referenced. I' not sure if Kabooms initial post was trying to make a point that since Super Vegetto>Janemba than the whole "Strongest ki ever..." won't work. Even though obviously Vegetto never existed in that timeline. |
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| + Pyrus | Nov 16 2013, 02:33 AM Post #30 |
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The difference is we were shown that Goku wasn't including himself (ala any fusions either) in Movie 12 because he beat the piss out of "the strongest ki" he'd ever felt, so he obviously couldn't be including himself. In GT, he had just gotten the piss beat out of him, and then claimed his assailant was "the strongest ki" he'd felt. It's pretty clear to me what Toei was aiming for in that scenario, trying to pump up their new villain and all. The Movie 12 comparison always seems like a desperate attempt to keep GT at meager levels, honestly. That and claiming Goku's line is a "throwaway comment," whatever that means in this case. Edited by Pyrus, Nov 16 2013, 02:34 AM.
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