Was the Buu saga the worst canon saga in your opinion?

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Was the Buu saga the worst canon saga in your opinion?
Tweet Topic Started: Oct 25 2013, 03:35 PM (5,477 Views)
+ Emmeth	Oct 27 2013, 07:48 AM Post #61
I ♥ Yoeri Posts: 20,075 Group: Legend Member #8,985 Joined: February 7, 2013 Country Japan	Darth Pyrus Oct 27 2013, 07:37 AM Lack of proof isn't a gateway for the hellions to invade, Watson. It's a gateway for more injustice and lies. Please, be aware of that, for your next claim is mighty understandable but still underfunded by the proof you've provided...which is, as I've pointed out, not actually proof but a string of coherent occurrences that produce the motive. Without the actual set of proof, the motive is merely an accusation. You make it sound like I don't know I don't have proof. What makes you so much better than me, btw?
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+ miguelnuva	Oct 27 2013, 11:08 AM Post #62
Posts: 4,068 Group: Elite Member Member #8,291 Joined: September 16, 2012 Favourite Anime DragonBall Z What Browser do you use? FireFox Favourite Manga Sailor Moon	AT looked like he clearly sabotaged Gohan all through the Buu saga. I still would have preferred a Gogeta beating Kid Buu ending personally. Reveal Kid Buu as the strongest Buu and then use Gogeta in place of the spirit bomb.
	Gogeta power placement


NavonWise	Oct 27 2013, 06:25 PM Post #63
Realist Rapper Alive Posts: 1,889 Group: Member Member #6,948 Joined: November 5, 2011 Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Emmeth I'll try. Unnecessary conflicts: * Everything involving Pure Boo * Gotenks vs Super Boo Unnecessary techniques: * Mainly just the Fusion Dance. It just introduces a whole new comples thing that wasn't needed. * Anything Gotenks spits out. Unnecessary transformations: * All versions of Super Boo. Such a waste of effort. * Mystic Gohan, I guess. Even though I like this version of Gohan, wouldn't it be better to just boost him up tremendously and make him go SSJ3 for the final battle against Gotenks-Boo? The way all the transformations was introduced, it felt like AT was trying to copy the Cell arc. Everybody had to become lots stronger to face the new enemy, and in the Cell arc, they had the RoSaT. In Boo arc they had Fusions and Elder Kai. Also, the comedy just doesn't live up to the early days of DB, because I feel like they tried to copy Kid Goku by creating Goten. I like Goten, but he's not Kid Goku. Well Super Buu VS Gotenks was necessary, no one else was there to protect Earth, who else could've done it in those moments? Again, Gotenks was necessary at the time since no one was there to protect the Earth. Clearly Gohan was not ready yet, there was no one else to protect Earth. That being said, yes, fusion was needed. Mystic is not a transformation, can't really say much about this one. Isn't it the same for Frieza though? Everybody had to become stronger to face this new threat, they didn't have the ROSAT but they had that zenkai spamming lol I don't know, I never looked at Goten and immediately thought of Kid Goku, you'll might see that a bit with the anime witch butchered the Buu saga in my opinion, but I never got that feeling reading the manga. Saiyan Femme -Gotenks ruining all the sense of danger and excitement -Piccolo being reduced to Gotenks' nanny -Gohan's huge build up only for him to disappear completely in the final dbz battle against the final dbz villain -Goku coming back to full spotlight after he had already supposedly passed on the torch -Vegeta falling so far behind in power in comparison to Goku & Gohan (don't tell me Goku SSJ2 = Vegeta SSJ2 because it only takes one second of SSJ3 to make that insignificant) I wish I knew what else could Piccolo do. I agree, growing up, I always thought Gohan was the one who would finish the job; now that I'm older and read the manga, I realized how unsuited Gohan was to take over. No one else could've done it, Gohan got outsmarted by Buu, then gets himself absorbed...that's the guy who should've taken over for Goku now? He wanted to pass the torch, we clearly see him want to pass it over and tries his best to not be too involved. Then all hell breaks loose.. I guess that can be a problem, for Vegeta fans that is. At the end, Vegeta just doesn't have Goku's brains when it comes to fighting, that's the harsh reality for Vegeta. Plus, we know why Gohan surpassed Vegeta so I don't see a big issue here. Emmeth The only time AT listened to fans, the Boo arc happened. I'm sure it's adored in Japan, but AT decieved us with his changes. Gohan should have been the real hero, end of story. I believe AT states himself that it was hard to keep Gohan in character. He planned on Gohan taking over, but he was having trouble with Gohan's character. Gohan was just not suited for the role, he doesn't want it at the end of the day. Saiyan Femme Goku is stale as a hero because his peak had already been reached long ago, in Freeza saga to be exact. He had already reached "perfection" as a fighter and as a hero, there was no further development to be done in his character in those areas by the end of Freeza saga. So in the Cell saga he rightfully passed on the torch to the newer generation, he stepped down from his position as main hero to that of a mentor, passing on his knowledge and expertise, and being an essential key in training the new main hero. It was done greatly and that is one of the many reasons the Cell saga is so popular. It was stupid to see all of that thrown away last minute in the Buu saga and bringing back Goku who was already a "completed" character, when there was still some more growing to be done by Gohan, Vegeta (although to be fair he grew plenty in this saga), Piccolo and even the new characters Goten and little Trunks. Goku had already done the full circle, bringing him back to the spotlight was absolutely pointless and stale. It's perfectly valid to hate Gohan as a hero & main character, to each their own, but don't tell me you can't see how ridiculous it is for Goku to state repeatedly how he was gonna leave the fate of the Earth to the newer generation only to come back last minute out of nowhere to save the day once more. Tell me you find that much preferable to the possibility of Gohan being the hero because Gohan sucks/is haxed/boring/pointless/etc, but please do not tell me it makes perfect sense for Goku to come back when everything was perfectly set up for him to leave the throne. It really doesn't. Goku was still developing a bit, he had to learn that just because Gohan and Goten were his kids, they're not like him. We all know how he wanted to pass the torch, we all saw how little he wanted to get in between the Buu battle, but at the end they just weren't good enough. Gohan didn't train for 7 years, get's his ultimate powers, and not only gets outsmarted once, but twice. Yes, Gohan was a badass in the Cell saga, we know that, but he's just not suited for the role as hero.
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+ Pointer	Oct 27 2013, 06:40 PM Post #64
... Posts: 7,062 Group: Elite Member Member #8,812 Joined: January 5, 2013 Gender Male	personally I have DBZ from 0-110 /end of frieza saga/ =9/10 from 110-198 /cell saga/ 8/10 200- /buu saga/ 6/10 its not that bad but obviously weaker than the previous two Edited by Pointer, Oct 27 2013, 06:44 PM.



+ Pyrus	Oct 27 2013, 07:54 PM Post #65
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Emmeth Oct 27 2013, 07:48 AM Darth Pyrus Oct 27 2013, 07:37 AM Lack of proof isn't a gateway for the hellions to invade, Watson. It's a gateway for more injustice and lies. Please, be aware of that, for your next claim is mighty understandable but still underfunded by the proof you've provided...which is, as I've pointed out, not actually proof but a string of coherent occurrences that produce the motive. Without the actual set of proof, the motive is merely an accusation. You make it sound like I don't know I don't have proof. What makes you so much better than me, btw? That's a different topic, good sir. The point in hand here is that it is a notorious fallacy to think that the lack of evidence for some notion is evidence for some competing notion.
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Ben	Oct 27 2013, 09:34 PM Post #66
Posts: 564 Group: Donator Member #10,230 Joined: September 20, 2013 Gender Not Specified What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Darth Pyrus Oct 27 2013, 07:54 PM Emmeth Oct 27 2013, 07:48 AM Darth Pyrus Oct 27 2013, 07:37 AM Lack of proof isn't a gateway for the hellions to invade, Watson. It's a gateway for more injustice and lies. Please, be aware of that, for your next claim is mighty understandable but still underfunded by the proof you've provided...which is, as I've pointed out, not actually proof but a string of coherent occurrences that produce the motive. Without the actual set of proof, the motive is merely an accusation. You make it sound like I don't know I don't have proof. What makes you so much better than me, btw? That's a different topic, good sir. The point in hand here is that it is a notorious fallacy to think that the lack of evidence for some notion is evidence for some competing notion. Well, I think the answer is probably that Toriyama wouldn't have cared anyway. He said flat out in those Daizenshuu interviews that the fans wrote in complaining about his artwork in the later half of the series, and he just ignored it. I don't see why he would listen to them based on that revelation, although by the same token it doesn't mean they weren't writing letters about wanting Goku back either. There were some old DBZ Usenet groups (Japanese and later English) where fans complained about it, but most Usenet servers only have 1000 day retention and back in the 90's no one was worrying about preserving stuff like that for arguments almost 20 years later.



+ Pyrus	Oct 27 2013, 09:43 PM Post #67
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Ben Oct 27 2013, 09:34 PM Darth Pyrus Oct 27 2013, 07:54 PM Emmeth Oct 27 2013, 07:48 AM Darth Pyrus Oct 27 2013, 07:37 AM Lack of proof isn't a gateway for the hellions to invade, Watson. It's a gateway for more injustice and lies. Please, be aware of that, for your next claim is mighty understandable but still underfunded by the proof you've provided...which is, as I've pointed out, not actually proof but a string of coherent occurrences that produce the motive. Without the actual set of proof, the motive is merely an accusation. You make it sound like I don't know I don't have proof. What makes you so much better than me, btw? That's a different topic, good sir. The point in hand here is that it is a notorious fallacy to think that the lack of evidence for some notion is evidence for some competing notion. Well, I think the answer is probably that Toriyama wouldn't have cared anyway. He said flat out in those Daizenshuu interviews that the fans wrote in complaining about his artwork in the later half of the series, and he just ignored it. I don't see why he would listen to them based on that revelation, although by the same token it doesn't mean they weren't writing letters about wanting Goku back either. There were some old DBZ Usenet groups (Japanese and later English) where fans complained about it, but most Usenet servers only have 1000 day retention and back in the 90's no one was worrying about preserving stuff like that for arguments almost 20 years later. I believe I need a citation!
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Saiyan Femme	Oct 27 2013, 10:05 PM Post #68
Posts: 1,683 Group: Member Member #8,569 Joined: November 17, 2012 Favourite Anime DBZ, Card Captor Sakura, Evangelion Favourite Manga Slam Dunk, Fushigi Yugi, Shaman King	NavonWise I wish I knew what else could Piccolo do. I was perfectly content with him taking the role of a mentor rather than a fighter, what's annoying is him ending up being the butt of Gotenks' lame a*ss jokes. NavonWise Gohan got outsmarted by Buu, then gets himself absorbed...that's the guy who should've taken over for Goku now? He wanted to pass the torch, we clearly see him want to pass it over and tries his best to not be too involved. Then all hell breaks loose.. But that's the point of this thread, Gohan ended up being absorbed as a plot device for him to not be the one to defeat Buu and bring Goku back instead. He didn't end up being not being the hero because he got absorbed, he got absorbed because AT didn't want to make him the hero anymore. It's part of what makes the saga so lame, plot induced stupidity (PIS). And I don't think Buu ever tried to absorb Goku so you don't know he would've done any better. NavonWise Goku was still developing a bit, he had to learn that just because Gohan and Goten were his kids, they're not like him. We all know how he wanted to pass the torch, we all saw how little he wanted to get in between the Buu battle, but at the end they just weren't good enough. So the moral of the day is that Goku should never die, otherwise Earth is screwed? I don't see how that is development at all as much as a failure in the story to successfully let new characters take over Goku's job when he was already a full adult and a character with no more growth to be had. Besides, don't forget Goku's disappointment in Goten's disinterest in training at the EoZ, he still wanted his kid to "be like him" as you call it.



NavonWise	Oct 27 2013, 11:03 PM Post #69
Realist Rapper Alive Posts: 1,889 Group: Member Member #6,948 Joined: November 5, 2011 Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Yeah I guess, sure the gags on the Buu saga weren't magical for some of us, I just find it a bit absurd when I see people say Piccolo should've had a bigger role. Piccolo was in charge of the kids learning the fusion, they were in charge of stopping Buu; they might not have succeeded on that but they certainly prolonged the Earth's destruction and that wouldn't have been possible without Piccolo. But again, it was messing up with Gohan's character, according to AT. AT could've easily had Gohan crap on Buu, but not to the point where it would change his character out of no where. Gohan didn't like fighting, he didn't want the role as hero at all and we can see this because he did nothing but study for 7 years. Everything he's done, it was forced upon him, I guess AT felt bad about that. I'm trying to find the interview but I know there was one with the voice of Goku and someone else where they talk about Gohan, etc. Lol nah, to me it was more like, don't pass the torch to some one who doesn't want it, is not suited for it, and pass it to the one you truly believe can be suited for it, otherwise, the Earth and universe are done for. Goku seemed to find that someone, and it was with Uub. I'm sure you remember of the last few pages AT redrew? He called for the flying nimbus and gave it to Uub, then we see Uub flying with the nimbus and an image of Kid Goku next to him and smiling. That to me was an image of passing the torch, especially when he gives that flying nimbus. I wouldn't say he wanted Goten to still be like him, just wanted him to train for the tourny. Besides, Goten was underage still, living under Goku's roof; he kinda had to do what Goku says lol
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Saiyan Femme	Oct 28 2013, 02:23 AM Post #70
Posts: 1,683 Group: Member Member #8,569 Joined: November 17, 2012 Favourite Anime DBZ, Card Captor Sakura, Evangelion Favourite Manga Slam Dunk, Fushigi Yugi, Shaman King	NavonWise Oct 27 2013, 11:03 PM Gohan didn't like fighting True NavonWise he didn't want the role as hero at all Probably not true, I don't think Great Saiyaman is a random coincidence. NavonWise Everything he's done, it was forced upon him Gohan is the same person who yelled at his mum to shut up because he desperately wanted to go to Namek to revive his friends and to fight to save the Earth. The quote you're looking for it this one I think Akira Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part. NavonWise Lol nah, to me it was more like, don't pass the torch to some one who doesn't want it, is not suited for it, and pass it to the one you truly believe can be suited for it, otherwise, the Earth and universe are done for. Goku seemed to find that someone, and it was with Uub. It doesn't even remotely make up for dropping all the other storylines of leaving the job to Gohan & the other kids, actually it just adds up to the wtf moments. He could have stayed and trained Pan instead. The originally intended storyline was dropped halfway through the Buu saga and sadly the writing and the story suffered from it; even if you feel it was the right way to go, ultimately Toriyama did not manage to do it in a smooth way that respected Gohan's character and other characters involved, not even the very Goku. And that is one of the reasons why Buu saga isn't as popular as others, simple as that.



Mihawk	Oct 28 2013, 02:32 AM Post #71
Posts: 4,804 Group: Prodigy Member #4,783 Joined: March 2, 2010 Gender Not Specified	Saiyan Femme Oct 27 2013, 03:13 AM Yes it was, especially coming after the Android/Cell saga which was the best. Of course there were several good things about it as well but I felt it was very unsatisfactory in many ways, such as -Gotenks ruining all the sense of danger and excitement -Piccolo being reduced to Gotenks' nanny -Gohan's huge build up only for him to disappear completely in the final dbz battle against the final dbz villain -Goku coming back to full spotlight after he had already supposedly passed on the torch -Vegeta falling so far behind in power in comparison to Goku & Gohan (don't tell me Goku SSJ2 = Vegeta SSJ2 because it only takes one second of SSJ3 to make that insignificant) The other sagas also had their problems here and there, but none of them leave me unsatisfied the way Buu saga does. I don't really hate the Buu saga as much as some people but this is right on the best and to the point criticism I've seen on it.



+ Yusuke	Oct 28 2013, 03:15 AM Post #72
Posts: 7,023 Group: Elite Member Member #9,876 Joined: August 11, 2013 Gender Male Country Canada	Saiyan Femme Oct 27 2013, 05:54 AM sm11211 Oct 27 2013, 04:54 AM Like I said before, it's just your opinion. Just because Gohan didn't become the main character doesn't mean it's a bad saga. Although the Gohan fanbase tries to claim that. I'm the only big Gohan fan in here, all the rest in here that also think Buu saga didn't measure up to the rest of dbz have no significant Gohan bias Quote: Just think about it though. Mystic Gohan easily killing Super Buu or Majin Vegeta killing Fat Buu? That would be anti-climatic as hell! That would give Buu Saga haters even more grounds to hate the saga. Majin Vegeta killing Fat Buu wouldn't have been right because it was way too soon to be killing off the villain but Buu being killed by Gohan (or Gotenks if he wasn't so lame) or a combined effort with some of the characters living on Earth or some other fusion besides the ones we saw (or maybe even Vegetto) could have been great if done properly. Quote: Goku stale? I can use the stale argument as well. I personally think Gohan is as stale as hell with all of his hidden power plot devices. A character being "stale" is merly an opinion my friend. How else do you suggest people determine which is the best & worst saga other than opinions? Goku is stale as a hero because his peak had already been reached long ago, in Freeza saga to be exact. He had already reached "perfection" as a fighter and as a hero, there was no further development to be done in his character in those areas by the end of Freeza saga. So in the Cell saga he rightfully passed on the torch to the newer generation, he stepped down from his position as main hero to that of a mentor, passing on his knowledge and expertise, and being an essential key in training the new main hero. It was done greatly and that is one of the many reasons the Cell saga is so popular. It was stupid to see all of that thrown away last minute in the Buu saga and bringing back Goku who was already a "completed" character, when there was still some more growing to be done by Gohan, Vegeta (although to be fair he grew plenty in this saga), Piccolo and even the new characters Goten and little Trunks. Goku had already done the full circle, bringing him back to the spotlight was absolutely pointless and stale. It's perfectly valid to hate Gohan as a hero & main character, to each their own, but don't tell me you can't see how ridiculous it is for Goku to state repeatedly how he was gonna leave the fate of the Earth to the newer generation only to come back last minute out of nowhere to save the day once more. Tell me you find that much preferable to the possibility of Gohan being the hero because Gohan sucks/is haxed/boring/pointless/etc, but please do not tell me it makes perfect sense for Goku to come back when everything was perfectly set up for him to leave the throne. It really doesn't. 1) I wasn't quoting you but what I was trying to get at is that people like to claim that (insert saga name here) sucks because (insert character name here) didn't kill (insert main villian here). It's not just Gohan fans but other fanbases do that like the Vegeta fanbase. 2) But I don't see the reason why you would want a different ending when the one we got was argubably the best out of all the choices. The humans finally had their chance to be relevant in the series and take action for themselves instead of having your typical ending with a Z-Fighter killing a villain with some move. 3) Reached his peak? There were a lot of times in DB were you can argue that Goku "reached his peek". That doesn't necessarily that he actually did. And "perfection"? How exactly di he obtain "perfection" post Frieza Saga? From what I can see, he's pretty much the same as he was Pre-Frieza saga. And as for the whole "passing the torch" thing, it's just your opinion. You see all of that as making it mandatory for Gohan to be the main hero but AT thinks otherwise. He on his own will decided that Gohan wasn't suited for the lead role. How can you argue against that? If the creator of the series itself thinks he shouldn't be the main character, then he shouldn't take that role. The bottome line is, I would much rather see the "stale and boring" hero that you make Goku out to be then have to endure countless episodes of Gohan using the same "hidden power" plot device BS to keep him relevant. That was pretty much Gohan's only role throughout the entire course of DBZ. Toriyama not making Gohan the main hero might have been the best choice he made while writing DBZ.
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+ Pyrus	Oct 28 2013, 03:32 AM Post #73
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Gotenks does ruin every goddamn scene he's in.
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NavonWise	Oct 28 2013, 04:23 AM Post #74
Realist Rapper Alive Posts: 1,889 Group: Member Member #6,948 Joined: November 5, 2011 Favourite Anime Dragon Ball Z Favourite Manga Dragon Ball	Saiyan Femme Probably not true, I don't think Great Saiyaman is a random coincidence. And he was suppose to just stand there and do nothing is what you're saying? Lol I mean it's one thing loving the fight, Gohan does it because he feels he has to. Again, he would've trained for those 7 years if he wanted to continue to fight so if he chose not to, it's because he's simply not interested in it. The kid was smart at the end of the day, he should've known if he doesn't train, he'll start to lose his power and get rusty. Saiyan Femme Gohan is the same person who yelled at his mum to shut up because he desperately wanted to go to Namek to revive his friends and to fight to save the Earth. There you go, as you said, Gohan wanted to go to Namek to revive his friends, and mostly because of Piccolo. He felt responsible for the death of Piccolo and in a way, it was his fault. Piccolo died to save Gohan, and Gohan wanted to participate in helping out; that's not the same as to him wanting to go to Namek and have an incredible adventure with lots of fights. Saiyan Femme The quote you're looking for it this one I think Akira Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part. That's one of them but I'm sure there was one where it's him and that woman who play Goku's voice. In it, he explains how he felt bad for Gohan because he knew how Gohan hates fighting, and felt putting him in that line was tampering with Gohan's character. Saiyan Femme It doesn't even remotely make up for dropping all the other storylines of leaving the job to Gohan & the other kids, actually it just adds up to the wtf moments. He could have stayed and trained Pan instead. The originally intended storyline was dropped halfway through the Buu saga and sadly the writing and the story suffered from it; even if you feel it was the right way to go, ultimately Toriyama did not manage to do it in a smooth way that respected Gohan's character and other characters involved, not even the very Goku. And that is one of the reasons why Buu saga isn't as popular as others, simple as that. But that would be your opinion though, and I guess a lot of the American fanbase. You said Goku was complete, but I showed you how there was still a bit more room left to fill in. You say Gohan should've been the hero, but we know Gohan doesn't want that role, doesn't like that role, and is not suited for the role. Hey it would've been great to have Goku pass Gohan the torch, but it just wasn't Gohan that he was suppose to pass it to. Also, I don't see why it's a big deal that Goku decides to give it to Uub; I always thought it was kinda interesting how one of the most difficult beings they ever encountered would come out and one day become Earth's new protector.
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+ Pyrus	Oct 28 2013, 04:25 AM Post #75
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Goham wanted to be a hero, but not THE hero. That was the damn message, you fools!
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