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- Tien (Buu Saga) Vs 4th Form Frieza
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| Tien (Buu Saga) Vs 4th Form Frieza | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 4 2013, 03:21 AM (2,743 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Sep 6 2013, 03:42 PM Post #46 |
 
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The lack of evidence can't be used to be right though, or you'd be committing a sin. Edited by Pyrus, Sep 6 2013, 03:43 PM.
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| Makyan Star | Sep 6 2013, 04:20 PM Post #47 |
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Toriyama Interview Interviewer: Other than the Saiya-jins and Piccolo do any of the Humans ever surpass Freeza. Toriyama: Well Other than Yamcha I always had in mind Tenshinhan and Kuririn surpassing him at one point after Cell. |
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| Alex D. Boss | Sep 6 2013, 04:37 PM Post #48 |
 
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Nice try , but no one believes this. |
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| IllogicalGlory | Sep 6 2013, 04:39 PM Post #49 |
Furious
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Is that from Super Otaku? Lol fake. |
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| + Clearin | Sep 6 2013, 04:44 PM Post #50 |
 
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What are you talking about? There's no evidence for either side, at all. It's true that there's no evidence that Krillin/Tien surpassed Freeza. However it's also completely true that there's no evidence that says Freeza is still stronger than the two of them. No matter which side you pick, you're doing so without complete evidence. That's why I personally don't even bother to pick a side. But for those who do pick sides they're both about as "correct" as each other, since neither side can prove the other side wrong. |
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| + supersaqer | Sep 6 2013, 04:45 PM Post #51 |
Transcendent
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It's true. It's from a very reliable source. |
 Speed-o'-Sound Sonic | |
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| Alex D. Boss | Sep 6 2013, 04:52 PM Post #52 |
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Can you show it? |
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| Muyasuki | Sep 6 2013, 04:57 PM Post #53 |
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You couldn't get more fake then that. Especially given that the last time he gave anything in the manga gave a solid idea of where Tien and Yamcha ranked power-wise, it had them on the same tier as each other (the only real difference between their roles in Z was that Tien possessed the most Hax technique in the series while Yamcha didn't actually get any opportunities to even show off his Spirit Ball or Wolf Fang Fist). It would have been SLIGHTLY more believable if you didn't include the Yamcha part. As far as the topic goes, I used to be a firm Humans > Frieza guy but I think I lean more towards the caution side of things now (and work by giving where I think they would be at bare minimum). I don't think Tien is much stronger than he was in the Cell saga (all indications given imply that he has no intention of making any real gains in training through his age, the fact that throughout the series, he actually makes less gains through training then both of the other main humans, and the manner in which he turned down using the Hyperbolic Time Chamber). Not to mention that most of the proof for him being beyond Frieza in the Buu saga is actually just implications that Krillin MAY have surpassed Frieza and, thus, Tien probably did too. I can firmly say that I believe that Tien beats Initial Final Form Frieza with no problem. Past that, I want to say he beats 100% Frieza, but its more likely that he doesn't (especially since there is even some evidence that the Base Saiyans don't exceed Frieza's power). I'm not including the Neo Tri-Beam as that move has less to do with Tien's power, and more to do with hax (I subscribe to the theory that while Yamcha and Tien couldn't master any of King Kai's techniques, they were able to incorporate elements of them into their own techniques). I never really worked in terms of power level, but more percentage. If Tien managed to keep the same gap between himself and the Base Saiyans that he had in the Trunks/Android Saga (where I had him between 17.5% and 25% (actually closer to 23.1% but 25% is a cleaner number) of Goku's power), then I do think he (probably) beats Frieza here. Edited by Muyasuki, Sep 6 2013, 05:04 PM.
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| Mike XL | Sep 6 2013, 05:26 PM Post #54 |
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Minor gripe. There was clearly a pretty significant gap between Tenshinhan and Yamcha, and I say that as a fan of both. Toriyama clearly writes him above Yamcha the whole series. 22st Budokai- He beats Yamcha 23rd Budokai- Yamcha gets tooled by Shen, Ten destroys Tao Pai Pai and fights well with Goku, having the upper hand while he has his weighed clothing on. Sayian Saga- Ten stomps Saibaiman, Yamcha draws with it. Android Saga- Yamcha gets owned by Android 20, Ten is with Goku and Piccolo during the staredown, and at least doesn't get embarrassed. Cell Saga- Tenshinhan stops and inflicts minor damage to Semi Perfect Cell, who tanked the attacks of Android 16, the strongest character in the show prior to the absorption. Buu Saga- Tenshinhan continues to train, Yamcha doesn't, Tenshinhan stops Buus blast, Yamcha does nothing. I think Tenshinhan is in Krillens tier, although he is inferior, and Yamcha is in Chaozus tier. There should be a relatively significant gap between the two tiers. |
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| + Pyrus | Sep 6 2013, 05:37 PM Post #55 |
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You couldn't detect my sarcasm at all. I'm disappointed in you. I'm just going to disagree with your standpoint here. |
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| Muyasuki | Sep 6 2013, 06:07 PM Post #56 |
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Prior to the start of Z, I have no problem agreeing with your assessment on the difference between Tien and Yamcha (though I do slightly disagree with your description of the 23rd Tournament). After that, I heavily disagree with you. In regards to the Saiyan Saga, there are two key differences between what actually happened and what you say. The first is that Tien didn't quite stomp the Saibaman. He beat it, but he didn't stomp it. The Saibaman was actually left in relatively the same condition that the one Yamcha fought was in (in fact, it looked like it wanted to continue fighting Tien). The key difference appears here: Vegeta destroys the Saibaman after it gets up and then makes it very clear that they should be taking the fight against the Z fighters more seriously. The Saibaman that Yamcha fights is taking the fight much more seriously then the one that Tien fights, strictly because it knows that if it loses, Vegeta will destroy it (like the other). The other problem: Yamcha doesn't draw with the Saibaman, he beats it (one fighting more seriously then the one fighting Tien). The only difference is that Yamcha (and pretty much everyone else) assumed Yamcha had killed it. The Saibaman self destructed and killed Yamcha AFTER it lost. It wasn't a draw, the Saibaman just didn't want to die alone. ANY of the Z fighters there (except possibly Piccolo) would have died from that Self Destruct attack. It was more than heavily implied during this Saga that (while the hierachy in power was still the same, they were all MUCH closer to one another in power than they were implied to be in Dragonball (well, actually the first reading of the scouters kinda does as well but not as strongly as this saga). Android Saga: That's not actual evidence. Android 20 could have done the exact same thing to Tien. While, yes Yamcha got "owned," by the Android. It was less based on there being a fight between the two, and more based on a surprise from the Android. If you honestly think Tien would have faired differently in the exact same circumstance, you'd be very hard pressed to prove it. Especially given that the only implication that we get in strength for both Tien and Yamcha is Krillin referring to them both as huge powers. Reinforcing the concept that they aren't too far away from one another in power. The only real indicator that Yamcha is weaker than Tien comes from prior established status quo (where, whenever someone jumps past another in power, its either shown or flat out stated) and the fact that Yamcha refers to himself (after the Android 20 incident) as the weakest one there. Nothing there implies anything resembling a significant gap inbetween the two. There's more implication of their being a significant gap between Yamcha and Chiaotzu then there is one between Yamcha and Tien. Cell Saga: Nothing changes power wise from the Android Saga (as they actually take place days apart). Their gap changes nothing. Using the Neo-Tri Beam as any sort of indication for Tien is faulty for 2 reasons. One: we do not know how Yamcha would have faired in the exact same circumstance using the exact same technique. Two: We literally see Cell (prior to absorbing 17) tanking and amp'd attack from Piccolo and, after fusing, we see him easily dispensing with Android 16. Now unless you're saying that Tien is even on the same TIER as either Piccolo or 16 (who were far beyond the Super Saiyans at this point), then your point here means absolutely nothing. Granted, most of the arguments based around Tien's strength DIRECTLY relate to this Tri-Beam scene. Slightly offhand, I'm pretty sure it was an asspull by Toriyama anyways because he kind of wrote himself into a hole right there. Buu Saga: We don't know that Yamcha does nothing. We just know that he doesn't want to compete with the others at the tournament (something that Tien didn't want to do either if I'm remembering the lines in the Japanese version of the manga correctly). While, yes Tien did train, we know that it wasn't intense training (based on his comments just prior to the Cell Games). We also know that, based on age, he wasn't making large gains (especially since he had no intention of doing intense training). Even moreso given the fact that Goku and, to a lesser extent, Vegeta didn't even make large gains in the same time period doing more special training (with Goku having the advantage of doing it with a dead body). Not to mention that, from a series perspective, the characters usually make (at best) minor gains during times of peace. They only make large gains when there is a reason (in Dragonball, the World Tournaments; in Z, Earth threatening forces). Neither of these occurred during the 7 years peace. I can keep going but that was a lot already (plus its a little off topic). Though I do feel like adding that the reason most people underestimate or underrate Yamcha's power is because he was Toriyama's go to guy for Worfing...even when it stopped being effective. In Dragonball, in the world tournaments, he lost to the eventual winner in the first two...and in the third, GOD came down just to spite him. In Z, he was used to set the tone for the Saiyan fight. Against the Androids, he was once more, used to establish the Androids. Against the Cell Jrs, he was used to further emphasize that the Cell Jrs were starting to get bored playing with their food. Edited: If we were creating tier lists, yes Tien and Yamcha would actually be on the same tier as Krillin but thats only because it doesn't make sense to have Krillin on a tier by himself (there is significantly more implications that Krillin is closer in power to the Base Saiyans than he is to the other humans). And just to make it clear, thats not saying he's close to the base saiyans. Just that he's closer to them than he is to the Tien or Yamcha. Edited by Muyasuki, Sep 6 2013, 06:18 PM.
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| Alex D. Boss | Sep 6 2013, 06:17 PM Post #57 |
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Woot Muyasuki , you got one heck of a big post there. But I agree with you though. Yamcha is imo a great fighter , I always liked him in DB for his own skills and techniques he invented himself. He just got badluck often , poor Yamcha. Are you a fan of Yamcha? Edited by Alex D. Boss, Sep 6 2013, 06:17 PM.
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| Muyasuki | Sep 6 2013, 06:25 PM Post #58 |
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Yeah...that ended up being WAY longer than I intended it to be. Yamcha is one of my favourite characters in the series (in general, I prefer the non-Saiyan Z-fighters). In Dragonball, the Wolf Fang Fist was far and away my favourite technique. He was the first Z fighter to firmly show techniques he developed himself (specifically referring to the Spirit Ball here). He's never implied to be a bad or even average fighter (based on skill) .... he's just essentially the textbook example of the Worf effect gone wrong (though, you gotta love the fact that God himself came down to knock him down). Edited add on: The Worf effect was even used on him beyond fighting. He lost Bulma (the woman he's been with for, essentially, the whole series up to that point) to Vegeta because the story needed another Saiyan and Bulma was the only other woman in the series. Edited by Muyasuki, Sep 6 2013, 06:37 PM.
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| Alex D. Boss | Sep 6 2013, 06:29 PM Post #59 |
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Yeah Yamcha is a cool character , he has his own rich life , got unhuman powers , a nice car , can get girls whoever he likes , he just live the luxurious life with a Flashy lifestyle. Can't hate on that. |
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| + supersaqer | Sep 6 2013, 08:42 PM Post #60 |
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Transcendent
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Just google it, duh? |
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Speed-o'-Sound Sonic | |
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