supersaqer

Sep 4 2013, 01:02 PM

Tien would actually beat Krillin any time post-Kaio training. The only time Krillin was stronger is during the Frieza Saga when Tien didn't finish his training.

sm11211

Sep 4 2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

 

I just don't think Ten's gains need to be anything to write home about. There was no need for big gains for irrelevant characters like him anymore, and he didn't have the resources.

Resources? Like plot devices? Krillin has a lot of those.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 04:27 PM

I'll say this, though, just because Krillen was stronger than Tenshinhan doesn't mean he didn't break 1 million or something like that, wasn't Krillen somewhat confident taking on the Sayians in the 25th Budokai? And I still don't buy some crazy multiplier for the Shin Kikoho.

Point being, I think both eventually hit the mid to hundred millions.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 05:04 PM

Did he at least breath a sigh of relief when they agreed not to go SSJ? My memory is hazy at fork.

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

supersaqer

Sep 4 2013, 01:02 PM

Tien would actually beat Krillin any time post-Kaio training. The only time Krillin was stronger is during the Frieza Saga when Tien didn't finish his training.

Prove it. Prove it well.

sm11211

Sep 4 2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

 

I just don't think Ten's gains need to be anything to write home about. There was no need for big gains for irrelevant characters like him anymore, and he didn't have the resources.

Resources? Like plot devices? Krillin has a lot of those.

Guru's potential unlock was about it as far as I know. Maybe you can shed light on the others?

I was mainly talking about good training partners and anything more beneficial than run of the mill Earth training.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 04:27 PM

I'll say this, though, just because Krillen was stronger than Tenshinhan doesn't mean he didn't break 1 million or something like that, wasn't Krillen somewhat confident taking on the Sayians in the 25th Budokai? And I still don't buy some crazy multiplier for the Shin Kikoho.

Point being, I think both eventually hit the mid to hundred millions.

You don't have to buy there being an insane multiplier for the Shin Kikoho, but the story does provide that notion, whether it would seem logical to you or not, which plot devices never really were in DBZ. Tenshinhan was clearly behind the Base Saiyans of the android saga and still managed to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell. If that isn't an insane multiplier, what is?

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 05:04 PM

Did he at least breath a sigh of relief when they agreed not to go SSJ? My memory is hazy at fork.

Someone said that was a lot more "fair" (probably not the exact word), but the panel isn't clear as to who said it. It could've been Bulma or Krillin.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 06:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

supersaqer

Sep 4 2013, 01:02 PM

Tien would actually beat Krillin any time post-Kaio training. The only time Krillin was stronger is during the Frieza Saga when Tien didn't finish his training.

Prove it. Prove it well.

sm11211

Sep 4 2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

 

I just don't think Ten's gains need to be anything to write home about. There was no need for big gains for irrelevant characters like him anymore, and he didn't have the resources.

Resources? Like plot devices? Krillin has a lot of those.

Guru's potential unlock was about it as far as I know. Maybe you can shed light on the others?

I was mainly talking about good training partners and anything more beneficial than run of the mill Earth training.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 04:27 PM

I'll say this, though, just because Krillen was stronger than Tenshinhan doesn't mean he didn't break 1 million or something like that, wasn't Krillen somewhat confident taking on the Sayians in the 25th Budokai? And I still don't buy some crazy multiplier for the Shin Kikoho.

Point being, I think both eventually hit the mid to hundred millions.

You don't have to buy there being an insane multiplier for the Shin Kikoho, but the story does provide that notion, whether it would seem logical to you or not, which plot devices never really were in DBZ. Tenshinhan was clearly behind the Base Saiyans of the android saga and still managed to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell. If that isn't an insane multiplier, what is?

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 05:04 PM

Did he at least breath a sigh of relief when they agreed not to go SSJ? My memory is hazy at fork.

Someone said that was a lot more "fair" (probably not the exact word), but the panel isn't clear as to who said it. It could've been Bulma or Krillin.

A plot device for Tenshinhan holding back Cell with the Shin Kikoho could be a decent power level, probably around 10 mil or so. He did show up, after all, Chaozu didn't.

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 06:07 PM

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 06:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

supersaqer

Sep 4 2013, 01:02 PM

Tien would actually beat Krillin any time post-Kaio training. The only time Krillin was stronger is during the Frieza Saga when Tien didn't finish his training.

Prove it. Prove it well.

sm11211

Sep 4 2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

 

I just don't think Ten's gains need to be anything to write home about. There was no need for big gains for irrelevant characters like him anymore, and he didn't have the resources.

Resources? Like plot devices? Krillin has a lot of those.

Guru's potential unlock was about it as far as I know. Maybe you can shed light on the others?

I was mainly talking about good training partners and anything more beneficial than run of the mill Earth training.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 04:27 PM

I'll say this, though, just because Krillen was stronger than Tenshinhan doesn't mean he didn't break 1 million or something like that, wasn't Krillen somewhat confident taking on the Sayians in the 25th Budokai? And I still don't buy some crazy multiplier for the Shin Kikoho.

Point being, I think both eventually hit the mid to hundred millions.

You don't have to buy there being an insane multiplier for the Shin Kikoho, but the story does provide that notion, whether it would seem logical to you or not, which plot devices never really were in DBZ. Tenshinhan was clearly behind the Base Saiyans of the android saga and still managed to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell. If that isn't an insane multiplier, what is?

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 05:04 PM

Did he at least breath a sigh of relief when they agreed not to go SSJ? My memory is hazy at fork.

Someone said that was a lot more "fair" (probably not the exact word), but the panel isn't clear as to who said it. It could've been Bulma or Krillin.

A plot device for Tenshinhan holding back Cell with the Shin Kikoho could be a decent power level, probably around 10 mil or so. He did show up, after all, Chaozu didn't.

I never said the humans didn't reach beyond 1,000,000. I personally think they definitely did. It's reaching into the hundred millions that I don't agree with.

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 05:04 PM

Did he at least breath a sigh of relief when they agreed not to go SSJ? My memory is hazy at fork.

Someone said that was a lot more "fair" (probably not the exact word), but the panel isn't clear as to who said it. It could've been Bulma or Krillin.

Itachi

Sep 4 2013, 06:08 PM

It doesn't have to be a multiplier either if you count the anime's interpretation. Imo it's a technique much more than an attack like the kienzan which took out Freeza's tail.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 06:11 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 06:07 PM

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 06:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

supersaqer

Sep 4 2013, 01:02 PM

Tien would actually beat Krillin any time post-Kaio training. The only time Krillin was stronger is during the Frieza Saga when Tien didn't finish his training.

Prove it. Prove it well.

sm11211

Sep 4 2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

 

I just don't think Ten's gains need to be anything to write home about. There was no need for big gains for irrelevant characters like him anymore, and he didn't have the resources.

Resources? Like plot devices? Krillin has a lot of those.

Guru's potential unlock was about it as far as I know. Maybe you can shed light on the others?

I was mainly talking about good training partners and anything more beneficial than run of the mill Earth training.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 04:27 PM

I'll say this, though, just because Krillen was stronger than Tenshinhan doesn't mean he didn't break 1 million or something like that, wasn't Krillen somewhat confident taking on the Sayians in the 25th Budokai? And I still don't buy some crazy multiplier for the Shin Kikoho.

Point being, I think both eventually hit the mid to hundred millions.

You don't have to buy there being an insane multiplier for the Shin Kikoho, but the story does provide that notion, whether it would seem logical to you or not, which plot devices never really were in DBZ. Tenshinhan was clearly behind the Base Saiyans of the android saga and still managed to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell. If that isn't an insane multiplier, what is?

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 05:04 PM

Did he at least breath a sigh of relief when they agreed not to go SSJ? My memory is hazy at fork.

Someone said that was a lot more "fair" (probably not the exact word), but the panel isn't clear as to who said it. It could've been Bulma or Krillin.

A plot device for Tenshinhan holding back Cell with the Shin Kikoho could be a decent power level, probably around 10 mil or so. He did show up, after all, Chaozu didn't.

I never said the humans didn't reach beyond 1,000,000. I personally think they definitely did. It's reaching into the hundred millions that I don't agree with.

Even by the EOZ?

I have Ten at 8,000,000 and Krillen at 9,000,000 at the Cell arch, and Krillen at 100,000,000 and Tenshinhan at 90,000,000 at the Buu arch. I have them both barely surpassing Freiza at the EOZ.

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 06:20 PM

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 06:11 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 06:07 PM

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 06:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 4 2013, 05:52 PM

supersaqer

Sep 4 2013, 01:02 PM

Tien would actually beat Krillin any time post-Kaio training. The only time Krillin was stronger is during the Frieza Saga when Tien didn't finish his training.

Prove it. Prove it well.

sm11211

Sep 4 2013, 03:38 PM

Quote:

 

I just don't think Ten's gains need to be anything to write home about. There was no need for big gains for irrelevant characters like him anymore, and he didn't have the resources.

Resources? Like plot devices? Krillin has a lot of those.

Guru's potential unlock was about it as far as I know. Maybe you can shed light on the others?

I was mainly talking about good training partners and anything more beneficial than run of the mill Earth training.

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 04:27 PM

I'll say this, though, just because Krillen was stronger than Tenshinhan doesn't mean he didn't break 1 million or something like that, wasn't Krillen somewhat confident taking on the Sayians in the 25th Budokai? And I still don't buy some crazy multiplier for the Shin Kikoho.

Point being, I think both eventually hit the mid to hundred millions.

You don't have to buy there being an insane multiplier for the Shin Kikoho, but the story does provide that notion, whether it would seem logical to you or not, which plot devices never really were in DBZ. Tenshinhan was clearly behind the Base Saiyans of the android saga and still managed to hold back Semi-Perfect Cell. If that isn't an insane multiplier, what is?

Mike XL

Sep 4 2013, 05:04 PM

Did he at least breath a sigh of relief when they agreed not to go SSJ? My memory is hazy at fork.

Someone said that was a lot more "fair" (probably not the exact word), but the panel isn't clear as to who said it. It could've been Bulma or Krillin.

A plot device for Tenshinhan holding back Cell with the Shin Kikoho could be a decent power level, probably around 10 mil or so. He did show up, after all, Chaozu didn't.

I never said the humans didn't reach beyond 1,000,000. I personally think they definitely did. It's reaching into the hundred millions that I don't agree with.

Even by the EOZ?

I have Ten at 8,000,000 and Krillen at 9,000,000 at the Cell arch, and Krillen at 100,000,000 and Tenshinhan at 90,000,000 at the Buu arch. I have them both barely surpassing Freiza at the EOZ.

Why would they make larger gains than Goku and Vegeta, who trained in heaven and a gravity chamber, respectively? Better yet: how?

And no, not even by the end of Z do I think the humans reached Freeza's power. Close? Maybe. Surpassed? No. They were both far past their primes (Krillin being 48 and Tenshinhan being 51)^[1], so without plot power, their training gains would have been less than satisfactory, and they had quite a ways to go in the first place.

Pyrus the Vyrus

 

Goku's and Vegeta's gains came to a steady crawl, both of whom had extraordinary training environments. Tenshinhan trained in the mountains with Chaozu, who wouldn't be a beneficial training partner given how immense the gap was between the two in every instance we'd seen or heard of them. Tenshinhan was also 41 by the Boo arc - that's 4 years older than Goku, a whole 11 years physically - so his older age would begin to set in and affect his gains as well.

Then there is the recent interview from Toriyama, who claims Tenshinhan farmed alongside his training. Yes, the context is after Boo is defeated, but also look at the second and third interviews afterward, where Toriyama chimes in that he felt everybody was getting older and reaching their limits.

Toriyama Interview

 

Tenshinhan’s Epilogue:
Stoic Tenshinhan mainly does farming in addition to his training. He can split into multiple bodies and grow extra arms, so harvesting the crops goes quickly. He was found by Lunch, who fell in love with him at first sight and had been constantly pursuing his whereabouts, and even reluctantly lived together with her; but she wasn’t cut out for farming, and Tenshinhan has no interest in romance, so she left after just a few days. After that, it seems Lunch apparently stops in from time to time.

Toriyama Interview

 

Why did you set the movie a few years after the battle with Majin Buu?
It’s because I thought that period would be best in terms of timing, because at that time, everyone’s reached nearly perfect strength; during the Uub era after that, everyone’s gotten too old; and almost the whole cast of characters is there.

V-Jump Interview

 

With regards to the time frame of “for the first time in 39 years”, the movie’s setting is after the defeat of Majin Buu, and also prior to the final chapter. Why is it that you chose this period?
When I decided, “For this movie, let’s go with the whole cast!” I thought, “What era would be best?” If it’s a few years after the “Majin Buu arc”, then almost all the cast members are at MAX strength…. And also, you know, in the final chapter, where Uub appears, I made [characters like] Bulma and Kuririn pretty old, so honestly, I thought, “Maaaybe it’s a biiit difficult” [to make the time period any later]. (laughs)

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/mando-kobayashi-akira-toriyama-qa/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/mando-kobayashi-akira-toriyama-qa/
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-may-2013-akira-toriyama-special-interview/

As per the Toriyama, old age does have an effect on strength gains, and by the time Oob came around, everyone was too old to make great gains as they had in the past, including Tenshinhan; so the claim that he "always trains" is not sufficient evidence of any monumental increase in power, as not even Toriyama felt that way.

Pyrus the Vyrus

 

That isn't supported, though. Only the Saiyans are stated to have the luxury of remaining in their primes for an extended period of time, and according to Toriyama, after that they quickly deteriorate. Despite being much more gifted than a normal human like the farmer or Bulma, Tenshinhan is still vulnerable to the effects of aging, which according to Toriyama and Gero, are prevalent in the manga. Goku made a very large gain in the Room of Spirit and Time over less than a year (plot-induced, true), compared to his smaller gain from training with Piccolo and Gohan for three years, but then look at what happened in seven years after that - he barely doubled his strength, if that; same for Vegeta. For Tenshinhan to make large gains, when there is no logical reason from a plot standpoint to do so*, is unfounded.

*I say this because the only contradiction to this would be the ten year gap between Boo and Oob's arrival, in which it's heavily implied at least Goku made a gigantic jump to someone of Good Boo's level in just his Base form. That's why I mention plot standpoint.

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 3 2013, 10:09 PM

BioBroly288

Sep 3 2013, 09:56 PM

I Think buu saga Tien>buu saga krillin for these reasons.1 Yamcha calling Krillin the strongest is biased since Tien kept on training and because he hasnt even seen him in 7 years.

That would mean CG Krillin > CG Tenshinhan.

Quote:

 

2 Tien intersepted BuuTentks blast.

Not evidence. If he hadn't have hit it from the side with his Shin Kikoho, and it was meant for someone other than Dende, maybe this would work.

Quote:

 

3 Tien knows Spirit Burst (kaioken subsitution).

No, he doesn't. That's crap from the DB wiki.

Quote:

 

Also he held back Semi-Perfect Cell something Krillin dreams of doing and also did better defending himself against the Cell Jrs.

Also flawed logic. Krillin didn't have the Shin Kikoho, just like Tenshinhan didn't have the Kienzan against Nappa.

Saiyan Femme

Sep 3 2013, 10:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 3 2013, 09:36 PM

Even a few years after Boo, Krillin was the strongest human according to BoG. So Krillin would take this going solely by power.

Is it actually mentioned in the movie?? can i ask in what context?

I'm not sure about the movie but the promotional material has it that way.

BioBroly288

Sep 4 2013, 07:03 PM

Tiens was already stronger than Krillin in the CG Saga

BioBroly288

Sep 4 2013, 07:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 3 2013, 10:09 PM

BioBroly288

Sep 3 2013, 09:56 PM

I Think buu saga Tien>buu saga krillin for these reasons.1 Yamcha calling Krillin the strongest is biased since Tien kept on training and because he hasnt even seen him in 7 years.

That would mean CG Krillin > CG Tenshinhan.

Quote:

 

2 Tien intersepted BuuTentks blast.

Not evidence. If he hadn't have hit it from the side with his Shin Kikoho, and it was meant for someone other than Dende, maybe this would work.

Quote:

 

3 Tien knows Spirit Burst (kaioken subsitution).

No, he doesn't. That's crap from the DB wiki.

Quote:

 

Also he held back Semi-Perfect Cell something Krillin dreams of doing and also did better defending himself against the Cell Jrs.

Also flawed logic. Krillin didn't have the Shin Kikoho, just like Tenshinhan didn't have the Kienzan against Nappa.

Saiyan Femme

Sep 3 2013, 10:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 3 2013, 09:36 PM

Even a few years after Boo, Krillin was the strongest human according to BoG. So Krillin would take this going solely by power.

Is it actually mentioned in the movie?? can i ask in what context?

I'm not sure about the movie but the promotional material has it that way.

Tien still has some sort of power up since its been shown at least twice.Also Tiens was already stronger than Krillin in the CG Saga.Tien trained in the 7 Years while krillin didnt meaning he migth be rusty than his CG Self much like how Gohan got rusty than his CG Self.

BioBroly288

Sep 4 2013, 07:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 3 2013, 10:09 PM

BioBroly288

Sep 3 2013, 09:56 PM

I Think buu saga Tien>buu saga krillin for these reasons.1 Yamcha calling Krillin the strongest is biased since Tien kept on training and because he hasnt even seen him in 7 years.

That would mean CG Krillin > CG Tenshinhan.

Quote:

 

2 Tien intersepted BuuTentks blast.

Not evidence. If he hadn't have hit it from the side with his Shin Kikoho, and it was meant for someone other than Dende, maybe this would work.

Quote:

 

3 Tien knows Spirit Burst (kaioken subsitution).

No, he doesn't. That's crap from the DB wiki.

Quote:

 

Also he held back Semi-Perfect Cell something Krillin dreams of doing and also did better defending himself against the Cell Jrs.

Also flawed logic. Krillin didn't have the Shin Kikoho, just like Tenshinhan didn't have the Kienzan against Nappa.

Saiyan Femme

Sep 3 2013, 10:03 PM

ObsessiveFanGuy

Sep 3 2013, 09:36 PM

Even a few years after Boo, Krillin was the strongest human according to BoG. So Krillin would take this going solely by power.

Is it actually mentioned in the movie?? can i ask in what context?

I'm not sure about the movie but the promotional material has it that way.

Tien still has some sort of power up since its been shown at least twice.Also Tiens was already stronger than Krillin in the CG Saga.Tien trained in the 7 Years while krillin didnt meaning he migth be rusty than his CG Self much like how Gohan got rusty than his CG Self.