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DBZ and DBGT Power Levels
Topic Started: Aug 12 2013, 06:00 AM (3,312 Views)
Vertical
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I have been trying not to chime in on this thread but these following points... I just couldn't restrain myself...

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 13 2013, 03:22 AM
I don't believe Piccolo was actually weaker than Kaioshin. The only thing outright stating that is Kaioshin's Daizenshuu 7 bio. The manga itself paints a different picture with the circumstances of Piccolo forfeiting.

It's universally accepted that Kaioshin > Piccolo. The Daiz only helps support that argument. And even if it wasn't the case, it doesn't change the fact that Piccolo > Base Saiyans.
Both "Kaioshin > Piccolo" and "Piccolo > Base Saiyans" are far from universally accepted. Both interpretations are possible... and often debated.

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 13 2013, 03:22 AM
Boo was suppressed, but take him out of it for a moment and simply look at the statements about Gotenks. First Piccolo didn't think Gotenks had any chance at all, even with the RoSaT training, but after seeing him again he had hope. Regardless of Boo, that's all that needs to be said for Gotenks's power growth.

Two things. One, how the hell was Buu supressed? Two, like I mentioned earlier, Facts > Statements. Piccolo originally thought that Base Gotenks had a chance against Super Buu only for him to fail misearably again. Neither did he stand a chance in SSJ. Only when he went SSJ3 did he have a chance of winning.
Piccolo underestimating Buu is not the same as Piccolo overestimating Gotenks... especially when one is constantly noted for having deceptive Ki readings.

The situation is as simple as this:

- Piccolo regarding [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks: "Against what I believe to be Buu's strength, he stands no chance"
- Piccolo regarding [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks: "Against what I believe to be Buu's strength, he might stand a chance"
- Piccolo does not know Gotenks can turn SSJ after being created.

Buu's actual/true strength doesn't even matter. [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks

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But that statement doesn't show any superiority on Vegeta's part. It's just him mocking him. At best, you can argue Piccolo > Vegeta since Piccolo responded with "You want to try me" showing that he was confident he could beat Vegeta.

It doesn't need to show Vegeta's superiority because he was stronger beforehand and there's no reason to believe that wouldn't be the case here, hence why I said at best they'd be on par with each other. If we had seen Vegeta back down, you'd have a much better case, but both were confident.
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Given the context of that interview, I'd doubt he actually thought about Tien since it was a more laid back interview and he didn't put much thought in his answer.

That's complete assumption on your part. Why would the relaxed tone of the interview prevent Toriyama from speaking the truth? Do you think he doesn't give a crap unless it's a "serious" interview?
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And how is that desperate? It's very plausable that might be the case. Toriyama's good at forgetting characters. He forgot about Launch for almost the entire course of DBZ and he forgot the difference between SS2 and SS3 when working on BOG. Not to mention Tien was only their for a chapter than he was gone.

Lunch was nowhere near as popular or prominent to the plot as Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan was sprinkled all throughout the Boo arc, so it's obvious he wasn't forgotten; he was just unneeded. They're talking about the earthlings, and Tenshinhan would be included in that being Toriyama didn't consider him some alien like some fans do.
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Can Krilllin use the Kikoho? No! That would be impossible. Your just trying to fend off that argument.

I think you missed the point. Would you accept the argument that Krillin was stronger than Tenshinhan during the Saiyan battle because his Kienzan would've killed Nappa had it not been for Vegeta's warning, whereas nothing Tenshinhan did was notable?
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I never argued that Tien was even near 16's strength. Hell, he doesn't even come close to 100% Freiza. I'm just saying that after training for that length of time, he got stronger than Krillin.

The specifics didn't apply to you, but the general response did. Whether you think Tenshinhan should have surpassed Krillin or not doesn't affect the stated fact that Krillin was deemed the strongest earthling by the author himself.
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I never argued any of those points. The bottom line is based what i've seen in the manga, Tien is stronger than Krillin (as I mentioned in a previous post). You can take that and all of your bogus statements to the bank. Now, back to the other points.

Temper, temper. My "bogus statements" aren't based on what I want to think is true.
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You need to understand the difference between a sparring match and a serious fight. Even if their was a huge gap, a sparring match would be close because the stronger fighter would hold back against the weaker fighter to make it more fair. If this was serious fight, you would be right.

I know exactly what sparring is, but you're riding the notion that Gohan, who wanted to get back into shape and win the tournament, wouldn't exert himself...making him and his teachers (Piccolo and Goku) look like they don't know what they're doing.
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18 didn't have intent to kill when she fired the ki blast. And that still doesn't change the fact that SSJ was needed for them to win.

I never said it wasn't needed. In the suit, dragging Goten around, Trunks held his own against No.18, who had every chance to end the fight but somehow didn't until she realized she was completely and utterly outmatched.
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It's universally accepted that Kaioshin > Piccolo. The Daiz only helps support that argument. And even if it wasn't the case, it doesn't change the fact that Piccolo > Base Saiyans.

Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is pretty simple to fathom. It's shown by Kaioshin's demeanor and statements toward Yakon that he is inferior to him, and then Base Goku was advantaged against that guy, with the Daizenshuu supporting it. The clear conclusion would be that Base Goku surpassed Kaioshin, so if you by any chance had Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo, you'd be forced to believe that chain of strength. You can't disregard statements, feats, and supplementary information because you don't like the conclusion it leads to.

Like I said, the only thing blatantly saying Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo is the Daizenshuu entry. The manga statement itself that most people base their argument off of is completely interpretive, and shouldn't be taken singularly. It should be looked at with the statements that are also relating to the subject of it, such as the ability to even sense Kaioshin's power, Piccolo's knowledge of who he was facing, etc.

For the record, I don't believe Piccolo is weaker than the Base Saiyans.
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Your just making that up. He fully knew what was coming at him and he coudn't access his full power until he got a minute to spare (Only to lose it again). Notice how Vegeta says "While SS3 at full power" and not just simply "While SS3".

I'm not making a single thing up, sir.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

Chapter: 511 (DBZ 317), P8.3-5, P10.4
Context: as Goku gathers ki, while Vegeta holds off pure Boo
Goku: “Just a little more…….!! Just a little bit more. Tough it out for me, Vegeta….!!”
Vegeta: “St…still not yet?...Hurry up…..!! I’ll be ki…..killed………..!!”
Goku: “Sh-s***…! It-it’s already over 1 minute, but…N-not yet! I still can’t wipe out Boo with this much…! [ ] …Da...Damn it……..!! …I haven’t gathered all the ki!! What’s going on? He…he’ll be killed…..!!!”

Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P1.6
Context: Vegeta asks Goku if he’s gathered enough ki to defeat Boo yet
Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!”

Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P10.3-5
Context: still with the ki-charging business
Vegeta: “Ka…Kakarot…!! …Cut it out…! How long will it take? Do…do it now…N…not yet? Have you still not gathered the ki...!?”
Goku: “Da…Damn it…Damn it…!! …It shouldn’t be…It shouldn’t be like this…!! My…my power…my power is…Fa…falling off…”
*he reverts from Super Saiyan 3 back into his regular state*

Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2
Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3
Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…”


>Started at full power
>Couldn't find an opening to perform a full-power attack
>Power slipped away from him, had to duck out of the fight
>Tried charging up his power, drain was too much in a living body
>Lost the form completely


That's exactly what was said.
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Two things. One, how the hell was Buu supressed?

Look at the group trying to escape the RoSaT.
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Two, like I mentioned earlier, Facts > Statements. Piccolo originally thought that Base Gotenks had a chance against Super Buu only for him to fail misearably again. Neither did he stand a chance in SSJ. Only when he went SSJ3 did he have a chance of winning.
Well, for starters, your definition of "fact" seems to be everybody else's definition of "opinion." Furthermore, you're not focusing on what the actual subject here is: Gotenks.

Imagine you got into a fight and got your a*** kicked. You started training for a rematch during that training, your friend told you that even with weighted clothing on, you could probably kick your own a*** from the previous fight - that's how much you improved. When you actually got into the rematch you got your a*** kicked again, but that in no way negated the progress your friend said you made. It simply wasn't enough.

The same would apply for Gotenks. The inaccurate readings of Evil Boo in no way contradicted the readings of Gotenks, as everybody can sense Gotenks perfectly well and it's only Majin Boo whose power was stated to be difficult to read.
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What comments? Anyways, I have Uub > Vegeta since Uub did very well against a much more powerful Baby possesed Vegeta (who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku) and as you may already know, GT Base Goku > GT SSJ Vegeta and Uub was on par with GT Base Goku before merging with Good Buu.

I just provided three statements that either implied Vegeta was the strongest without Goku there or outright stated it. What more is there to argue here?
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 13 2013, 07:52 AM.
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Oh boy! Looks like I got a lot of replies since yesterday. Anyways, I'm ready to take on your points. Well start with you Mr. Illogical

@IllogicalGlory

I beg to differ.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8792057&t=8424885


That still doesn't change the fact that he has a sideshow for pretty much the entire saga (maybe not as bad as Launch was but bad nothless) and Krillin was featured for the majority of the saga. Obviously, Krillin would be fresh on Toriyama's mind as he was the more prominent human in the saga. And like I said earlier, I take most of Toriyama's statements outside the manga with a grain of salt. This is the guy who forgot the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3.

Boo's ki is like a lie, who knows what Piccolo sensed. Maybe he was just being optimistic, but that part doesn't matter. All that matters is that he had no faith in pre-rosat Gotenks and he did have some faith in post rosat Gotenks; he also does not know that Gotenks can go SSJ after fusion.

I don't know how "Buu ki is a lie" or any of that. Buu doesn't supress his ki at all in the series. And it's hard for me to take Piccolo's statements seriously. First, he has faith Post-RoSaT Gotenks. A few panels later, he's facepalming at how absurd that thought was. All Piccolo said is that Gotenks got stronger and that's about it. This whole idea of Post RoSaT Base Gotenks > SS3 Goku is just too stupid to put in to words.

It doesn't matter whether Krillin can use the kikoho. The point is, we don't know what Krillin's kikoho would do if he could use it. Using that argument, I could say that Krillin (saiyan arc) > Tenshinhan because Krillin could cut him in half with the kienzan. I could also say that Freeza arc Krillin > Vegeta because Krillin cut off Freeza's tail.

What I was trying to say is that we don't know if Krillin could master that technique and even if he did, I don't think he could utilize the technique like Tien did due to the fact that Tien has more endurance than him.

Holding back during training makes training useless. That's why Gohan was holding Goku back during their training in the RoSaT. If Goku could just suppress so he could put out effort, that would not have been the case. This quote from OFG sums it up perfectly:

The difference was, they were training to stop a global threat. Goten and Gohan were training for a tournement. Not to mention, Gohan was training to get back in to fighting shape, not to get stronger.

@Vertical I'll adress your points now

I have been trying not to chime in on this thread but these following points... I just couldn't restrain myself...

Don't sweat it pal, I'm open to any questions.

Both "Kaioshin > Piccolo" and "Piccolo > Base Saiyans" are far from universally accepted. Both interpretations are possible... and often debated.

Your right on that. It's still debated on the forums and I was wrong to enforce that as fact.

Piccolo underestimating Buu is not the same as Piccolo overestimating Gotenks... especially when one is constantly noted for having deceptive Ki readings.

The situation is as simple as this:

- Piccolo regarding [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks: "Against what I believe to be Buu's strength, he stands no chance"
- Piccolo regarding [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks: "Against what I believe to be Buu's strength, he might stand a chance"
- Piccolo does not know Gotenks can turn SSJ after being created.

Buu's actual/true strength doesn't even matter. [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks


Your being oblivious to the events that happened after. Piccolo originally thinks that Post RoSaT Gotenks stood a chance at winning only for him to be facepalming in a later panel. Piccolo's statements shoudn't be taken seriously like this based on the actual fight. And do you really believe Goten and Trunks got over 50x stronger in the RoSaT in a span of 15 days? Goku and Gohan got like 10-15x stronger and they spent the whole year in there.

Base Post > SSJ Pre is just so mind blowingly ridiculous


@ObsessiveFanGuy And now you OFG

It doesn't need to show Vegeta's superiority because he was stronger beforehand and there's no reason to believe that wouldn't be the case here, hence why I said at best they'd be on par with each other. If we had seen Vegeta back down, you'd have a much better case, but both were confident.

If it makes you happy, i'll put Piccolo at 4,000,000

That's complete assumption on your part. Why would the relaxed tone of the interview prevent Toriyama from speaking the truth? Do you think he doesn't give a crap unless it's a "serious" interview?

No but Toriyama is known for not putting much thought in to statements like this. He also said Bob Sapp > Hercule even though Hercule showed more feats than your average real life MMA fighter. Like I said at the start of the post, I take Toriyama's statements outside of the manga with a grain of salt.

Lunch was nowhere near as popular or prominent to the plot as Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan was sprinkled all throughout the Boo arc, so it's obvious he wasn't forgotten; he was just unneeded. They're talking about the earthlings, and Tenshinhan would be included in that being Toriyama didn't consider him some alien like some fans do.

Well he wasn't forgotten to the degree that Lunch was but he was still largely irrelevant for the majority of the saga while other humans like Krillin and Yamcha were featured more than Tien. Those humans were the ones fresh on Toriyama's mind and that makes me think he made the statement based on Krillin and Yamcha only. Like I before, Toriyama is a pro at forgetting stuff.

The specifics didn't apply to you, but the general response did. Whether you think Tenshinhan should have surpassed Krillin or not doesn't affect the stated fact that Krillin was deemed the strongest earthling by the author himself.

^ See the comment I made above

Temper, temper. My "bogus statements" aren't based on what I want to think is true.

The bottom line is that I proved why Tien > Krillin using facts and I dismissed your interview claim. I said it before and i'll say it again, Facts > Statements.

I know exactly what sparring is, but you're riding the notion that Gohan, who wanted to get back into shape and win the tournament, wouldn't exert himself...making him and his teachers (Piccolo and Goku) look like they don't know what they're doing.

Exactly! You just said it. He wasn't training to get stronger like he did when he trained with Goku and Piccolo, he was training to get back in to shape for a tournment. You just admmited that. Checkmate.

I never said it wasn't needed. In the suit, dragging Goten around, Trunks held his own against No.18, who had every chance to end the fight but somehow didn't until she realized she was completely and utterly outmatched.

She was only outmatched after they went SSJ. She was giving them a good beating prior to that.

Piccolo > Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is pretty simple to fathom. It's shown by Kaioshin's demeanor and statements toward Yakon that he is inferior to him, and then Base Goku was advantaged against that guy, with the Daizenshuu supporting it. The clear conclusion would be that Base Goku surpassed Kaioshin, so if you by any chance had Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo, you'd be forced to believe that chain of strength. You can't disregard statements, feats, and supplementary information because you don't like the conclusion it leads to.

Like I said, the only thing blatantly saying Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo is the Daizenshuu entry. The manga statement itself that most people base their argument off of is completely interpretive, and shouldn't be taken singularly. It should be looked at with the statements that are also relating to the subject of it, such as the ability to even sense Kaioshin's power, Piccolo's knowledge of who he was facing, etc.

For the record, I don't believe Piccolo is weaker than the Base Saiyans.


You might have a point OFG, i'll put Kaioshin at 200,000,000


>Started at full power
>Couldn't find an opening to perform a full-power attack
>Power slipped away from him, had to duck out of the fight
>Tried charging up his power, drain was too much in a living body
>Lost the form completely

That's exactly what was said.


The statements you just provided only prove my point. Goku says "he was THINKING and not actually DOING that. Plus he says "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute" which shows he wasn't at full power until he stored his energy after the minute.

Look at the group trying to escape the RoSaT.

What does that have to do with anything?

Well, for starters, your definition of "fact" seems to be everybody else's definition of "opinion." Furthermore, you're not focusing on what the actual subject here is: Gotenks.

Imagine you got into a fight and got your a*** kicked. You started training for a rematch during that training, your friend told you that even with weighted clothing on, you could probably kick your own a*** from the previous fight - that's how much you improved. When you actually got into the rematch you got your a*** kicked again, but that in no way negated the progress your friend said you made. It simply wasn't enough.

The same would apply for Gotenks. The inaccurate readings of Evil Boo in no way contradicted the readings of Gotenks, as everybody can sense Gotenks perfectly well and it's only Majin Boo whose power was stated to be difficult to read.


All he said was that the boys got stronger since they last fought.. That's all he said. People like to spin the statement in their own favour i.e.The people who say Base Gotenks Post > SS3 Goku and Base Post > SSJ Pre. These are the people that are enforcing their opinions on others with no facts.

I just provided three statements that either implied Vegeta was the strongest without Goku there or outright stated it. What more is there to argue here?

And I just told you why that can't be. Did you even bother reading my post. How does Uub (who held his own against an extremly powerful Baby posssesd Vegeta) to being weaker than SS2 Vegeta? There is no facts here other than Vegeta was the first one to get up which isn't a very convincing argument to put it bluntly. I'm using knowledge from previous fights to prove my point.
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 13 2013, 05:23 PM.
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If it makes you happy, i'll put Piccolo at 4,000,000

It won't make me happy and it shouldn't matter if I am. What matters is accuracy.
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No but Toriyama is known for not putting much thought in to statements like this. He also said Bob Sapp > Hercule even though Hercule showed more feats than your average real life MMA fighter. Like I said at the start of the post, I take Toriyama's statements outside of the manga with a grain of salt.

Mr. Satan couldn't break a stack of 15 bricks. That's his only feat, unless you count failing to knock out two gunmen and being exhausted afterward.
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Well he wasn't forgotten to the degree that Lunch was but he was still largely irrelevant for the majority of the saga while other humans like Krillin and Yamcha were featured more than Tien. Those humans were the ones fresh on Toriyama's mind and that makes me think he made the statement based on Krillin and Yamcha only. Like I before, Toriyama is a pro at forgetting stuff.

We don't know who or what was fresh on Toriyama's mind considering that interview was from 2004 and the manga ended serialization in 1995 - almost 10 years earlier.
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The bottom line is that I proved why Tien > Krillin using facts and I dismissed your interview claim. I said it before and i'll say it again, Facts > Statements.

Since when was "I think he trained more so he should be stronger" a proven fact? I believe you're applying the definition of fact to what's actually just your opinion.
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Exactly! You just said it. He wasn't training to get stronger like he did when he trained with Goku and Piccolo, he was training to get back in to shape for a tournment. You just admmited that. Checkmate.

You haven't addressed anything I pointed out about the sparring sessions, so I'm confused as to how this was a "checkmate."
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She was only outmatched after they went SSJ. She was giving them a good beating prior to that.

I've got the fight in front of me and I can't see where she was giving Trunks a good beating, as you put it. Her first landed attack - an axe-handle of sorts - that sent them into the ring, they bounced back from that instantly. Then she shot a ki blast at them that they dodged, and that's when they transformed. Before she knocked them into the ring, No.18 was only mildly ahead of Trunks.
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The statements you just provided only prove my point. Goku says "he was THINKING and not actually DOING that. Plus he says "If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute" which shows he wasn't at full power until he stored his energy after the minute.

Of course, he hadn't gotten the chance to hit Boo with a full power attack, as he said. After that, I disagree.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”


He thought things would be going better for him, hence why he showed off. By showing off, and without knowing the downside of using Super Saiyan 3 with a living body, he lost the power that would have enabled him to obliterate Boo.
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What does that have to do with anything?

Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo couldn't make a dent in the RoSaT. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks broke out.
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All he said was that the boys got stronger since they last fought.. That's all he said. People like to spin the statement in their own favour i.e.The people who say Base Gotenks Post > SS3 Goku and Base Post > SSJ Pre. These are the people that are enforcing their opinions on others with no facts.

It's the fact that he had hope in Base Gotenks's strength while he knew Super Saiyan Gotenks would be killed is what we're focusing on. He had hope for one guy but no hope for the other. What else could that possibly mean?

And I'm just going to address a similar response you made to Vertical.

The fact that Piccolo lost hope in Gotenks's strength doesn't negate the direct statement and excitement he had just a moment later. The problem was never Gotenks - it was Boo. Your assertion about the gains Gohan and Goku made is complete conjecture, and it doesn't matter the gains they made when considering every strength increase is plot-related and does not follow any pattern.
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And I just told you why that can't be. Did you even bother reading my post. How does Uub (who held his own against an extremly powerful Baby posssesd Vegeta) to being weaker than SS2 Vegeta? There is no facts here other than Vegeta was the first one to get up which isn't a very convincing argument to put it bluntly. I'm using knowledge from previous fights to prove my point.

Have you heard of the theory that Vegeta kept the power from Baby?
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 13 2013, 09:18 PM.
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ImmaGTBaby
Aug 13 2013, 03:10 PM
Your being oblivious to the events that happened after. Piccolo originally thinks that Post RoSaT Gotenks stood a chance at winning only for him to be facepalming in a later panel. Piccolo's statements shoudn't be taken seriously like this based on the actual fight. And do you really believe Goten and Trunks got over 50x stronger in the RoSaT in a span of 15 days? Goku and Gohan got like 10-15x stronger and they spent the whole year in there.

Base Post > SSJ Pre is just so mind blowingly ridiculous
Firstly, I'm not ignoring the events following his statement, I'm firmly stating that they have no relevance.

Buu's Ki is constantly noted as being deceptive/"a lie". Piccolo senses whatever he senses from Initial Super Buu and uses that as his measuring stick. Let's just apply a number to it for now like... 100.

Piccolo does not believe [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks stands a chance against "100"
Piccolo does believe that [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks stands a chance against "100"

Super Buu not actually being "100" has no relevance. He can be any amount stronger or weaker than "100" and it has no effect on Piccolo's measuring of Gotenks.


Secondly, you're making many assumptions to disregard [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks.

You assume SSJ is in fact a 50x multiplier [one of the most debated subjects in the community].
You assume that Goten and Trunks must surpass their own SSJ strength for Gotenks to do the same [they aren't even noted to be noticeably stronger... if they were anywhere near their SSJ selves, Piccolo wouldn't have been so worried when they were performing the dance] .
You assume comparing other character's gains in the same situation has ever mattered.

[Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks is really not as ridiculous as you make it sound... but your assumptions make it seem as such.
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It won't make me happy and it shouldn't matter if I am. What matters is accuracy.

Sarcasm my friend.

Mr. Satan couldn't break a stack of 15 bricks. That's his only feat, unless you count failing to knock out two gunmen and being exhausted afterward.

He kicked a guy off a cliff. I doubt anyone in real life can do that. Even MMA Fighters

We don't know who or what was fresh on Toriyama's mind considering that interview was from 2004 and the manga ended serialization in 1995 - almost 10 years earlier.

Which proves my point. Toriyama is a pro at forgetting stuff and that just shows how he would remember Krillin (being the most prominent human) over Tien. Maybe he wasn't fresh on Toriyama's mind but he was the first to come to mind.

Since when was "I think he trained more so he should be stronger" a proven fact? I believe you're applying the definition of fact to what's actually just your opinion.

That was only one of my arguments and it wasn't my main argument. My argument was that Tien managed to deflect an attack from Gotenks Buu where as Krillin coudn't land a punch on Super Buu. Not to mention that every official power level scan (when Toriyama still gave a s*it about them) had Tien stronger than Krillin. I'm only scratching the surface here and I can continue with these but I need to carry on here.

You haven't addressed anything I pointed out about the sparring sessions, so I'm confused as to how this was a "checkmate."

Because I proved to you why Gohan woudn't give it his all in training for a tournament as compared to training with Piccolo (Saiyan Saga) and Goku (Cell Saga) for a global threat. Obviously, you would take your training your a*** off when your fighting for the sake of the Earth and you woudn't if it was for the sake of a tournament. Check and Mate.

I've got the fight in front of me and I can't see where she was giving Trunks a good beating, as you put it. Her first landed attack - an axe-handle of sorts - that sent them into the ring, they bounced back from that instantly. Then she shot a ki blast at them that they dodged, and that's when they transformed. Before she knocked them into the ring, No.18 was only mildly ahead of Trunks.

I was referring to the manga. She was giving them a lot of puches and what not and sent them flying to the ring. She could have easily won earlier if they didn't go SSJ.

Of course, he hadn't gotten the chance to hit Boo with a full power attack, as he said. After that, I disagree.

He thought things would be going better for him, hence why he showed off. By showing off, and without knowing the downside of using Super Saiyan 3 with a living body, he lost the power that would have enabled him to obliterate Boo.


Yeah, he wanted to show off and what not but he wasn't at full power as I showed you in my previous post. Goku not knowing the downsides to SSJ3 in a living body was only more the reason why he needed a minute to spare.

Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo couldn't make a dent in the RoSaT. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks broke out.

Not sure how that relates to the topic but that just shows how inferior Gotenks was to Buu prior to going SSJ3.

@Vertical

Firstly, I'm not ignoring the events following his statement, I'm firmly stating that they have no relevance.

Buu's Ki is constantly noted as being deceptive/"a lie". Piccolo senses whatever he senses from Initial Super Buu and uses that as his measuring stick. Let's just apply a number to it for now like... 100.

Piccolo does not believe [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks stands a chance against "100"
Piccolo does believe that [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks stands a chance against "100"

Super Buu not actually being "100" has no relevance. He can be any amount stronger or weaker than "100" and it has no effect on Piccolo's measuring of Gotenks.


Secondly, you're making many assumptions to disregard [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks.

You assume SSJ is in fact a 50x multiplier [one of the most debated subjects in the community].
You assume that Goten and Trunks must surpass their own SSJ strength for Gotenks to do the same [they aren't even noted to be noticeably stronger... if they were anywhere near their SSJ selves, Piccolo wouldn't have been so worried when they were performing the dance] .
You assume comparing other character's gains in the same situation has ever mattered.

[Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks is really not as ridiculous as you make it sound... but your assumptions make it seem as such.


@ObsessiveFanGuy

It's the fact that he had hope in Base Gotenks's strength while he knew Super Saiyan Gotenks would be killed is what we're focusing on. He had hope for one guy but no hope for the other. What else could that possibly mean?

And I'm just going to address a similar response you made to Vertical.

The fact that Piccolo lost hope in Gotenks's strength doesn't negate the direct statement and excitement he had just a moment later. The problem was never Gotenks - it was Boo. Your assertion about the gains Gohan and Goku made is complete conjecture, and it doesn't matter the gains they made when considering every strength increase is plot-related and does not follow any pattern.


Since both of you guys are asking pretty much the same thing, I'm going to answer both of these points at the same time

1) Show me proof that Buu's ki is a "lie"

2) SSJ being 50x is the multiplier I use and is used a lot in the DBZ community. Even if the multiplier was like 10-20x Base, it's impossible for Goten and Trunks to have gotten that strong in a span of 15 days.

3) Gotenks's power corresponds with his fusees power Goten and Trunks. If Goten and Trunks don't make the huge gains, neither does Gotenks. If the fusess power isn't the same, the fusion doesn't work.

4) Why not should I make the comparision? Vegeta and Future Trunks only got like 4x stronger in their first RoSaT trip and Goku and Gohan (because of their efficency and the fact that they spent the whole year in there) were able to get 10-15x stronger. Me putting Goten and Trunks slightly over 2x stronger than their Pre-RoSaT self is a very fair assumption based on these facts and the fact that they only spent 15 days in the RoSaT.

These are the reasons why I don't take Piccolo's statement seriously and why Base Post > SSJ Pre is beyond facepalmary.


Have you heard of the theory that Vegeta kept the power from Baby?

Yeah but if that theory was true, Everyone who Baby possesed should have that sorta power (Yes, even Videl).
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He kicked a guy off a cliff. I doubt anyone in real life can do that. Even MMA Fighters

You doubt that a skilled MMA fighter could kick someone off a cliff? Even I can kick someone off a cliff and I haven't taken any MMA training.



The recipient flew at least a couple of feet from that. Of course, that's only one example of such a feat being entirely possible and fathomable.
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Which proves my point. Toriyama is a pro at forgetting stuff and that just shows how he would remember Krillin (being the most prominent human) over Tien. Maybe he wasn't fresh on Toriyama's mind but he was the first to come to mind.

But you can't prove any of that. He made the effort to sprinkle appearances of the guy all throughout the last arc, when he could have just as easily left him out of the picture considering he didn't do anything but look stupid whenever someone powered up and get knocked out by Boo.

I'm still unconvinced of your claim of a nonchalant interview. Toriyama is always in a relaxed mood in his interviews, so I'm not entirely positive how you could make the distinction between "srs AT interview" and "AT dun care 'bout this interview."
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That was only one of my arguments and it wasn't my main argument. My argument was that Tien managed to deflect an attack from Gotenks Buu where as Krillin coudn't land a punch on Super Buu.

That isn't a good argument at all. Tenshinhan hit the attack from the side with the Shin Kikoho, an attack meant for Dende no less, and showed up completely out of the blue. It's not as if Boo saw Ten there and shot it at him, and then Ten deflected it. Goku sliced Boo in half with a Kienzan, so by default Krillin could as well. Does that mean a thing? Not at all.
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Not to mention that every official power level scan (when Toriyama still gave a s*it about them) had Tien stronger than Krillin. I'm only scratching the surface here and I can continue with these but I need to carry on here.

You know what else every official battle power page showed? The gap between Krillin and Tenshinhan getting smaller and smaller.
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Because I proved to you why Gohan woudn't give it his all in training for a tournament as compared to training with Piccolo (Saiyan Saga) and Goku (Cell Saga) for a global threat. Obviously, you would take your training your a*** off when your fighting for the sake of the Earth and you woudn't if it was for the sake of a tournament. Check and Mate.

Your cockiness is off-putting, and not a good way to go on this forum, just saying. As for your point, you're essentially saying Gohan didn't want to get back into shape. You can't half-ass that. Either you put the effort in and get in shape or you don't and stay a fat slob. There is no middle ground.
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I was referring to the manga. She was giving them a lot of puches and what not and sent them flying to the ring. She could have easily won earlier if they didn't go SSJ.

I only go by the manga unless otherwise specified. The part in the fight you're talking about isn't proof at all of her giving them a good beating. Trunks was being pushed back, but No.18 didn't land any of those attacks except for the axe-handle, which as I already said, they bounced back from immediately, signifying it didn't do much damage if any.

If she could've won easily beforehand, why didn't she? Why did she allow the fight to drag on like that when she could have very easily increased her effort level and knocked Mighty Mask out of the ring?
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Yeah, he wanted to show off and what not but he wasn't at full power as I showed you in my previous post. Goku not knowing the downsides to SSJ3 in a living body was only more the reason why he needed a minute to spare.

Where have you provided any evidence that supports him not starting the fight at full power? How would Vegeta have any basis for his claim if he hadn't sensed Goku's full power?
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Not sure how that relates to the topic but that just shows how inferior Gotenks was to Buu prior to going SSJ3.

Hmm. Maybe I'm making this too vague. Look at Piccolo's initial reaction Evil Boo forming. It looks like shock, does it not? Take note that it's a verbal reaction as well (Viz has it as "Oh!").

Spoiler: click to toggle


Then look at his reaction after Boo goes insane - complete and utter speechlessness.

Spoiler: click to toggle


That looked like a power-up to me. Moving on, Piccolo still had some confidence in Gotenks's power.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Then Boo showed up on the Lookout and angrily demanded to fight him, screaming yet again with enough force to kick up the wind, at least.

Spoiler: click to toggle


After that, Piccolo lost all confidence in Gotenks's ability to beat Boo.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Even with the RoSaT training, he doubted Boo could be beaten. Then he actually saw Base Gotenks and was in complete awe.

Spoiler: click to toggle


After Piccolo blew up the door, Boo went crazy again and screamed his way out, and Piccolo noted the significance of this as well.

Spoiler: click to toggle


Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo couldn't even make a dent, yet Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks broke right out. The point here is that a certain level of power was necessary for Boo to break out of that dimension, one which he obtained during the fight with Gotenks, not before, signifying a clear power-up. Him screaming could very well be his equivalent of Fat Boo steaming, hence a power-up.
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1) Show me proof that Buu's ki is a "lie"

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8
Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?”
Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…”

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2) SSJ being 50x is the multiplier I use and is used a lot in the DBZ community. Even if the multiplier was like 10-20x Base, it's impossible for Goten and Trunks to have gotten that strong in a span of 15 days.

Hmm. You're 100% sure this "impossible" mindset is a valid excuse for strength increases in this manga?
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3) Gotenks's power corresponds with his fusees power Goten and Trunks. If Goten and Trunks don't make the huge gains, neither does Gotenks. If the fusess power isn't the same, the fusion doesn't work.

Going by your levels, Gogeta would be 5.6x stronger than Gotenks, and end up making Gohan-Boo a mere 38% of his power.

Gotenks: 5,800,000,000
SS Gotenks: 290,000,000,000
SS2 Gotenks: 870,000,000,000 (Hypothetically)
SS3 Gotenks: 4,350,000,000,000

Gogeta: 33,000,000,000
SS Gogeta: 1,650,000,000,000
SS2 Gogeta: 4,950,000,000,000
SS3 Gogeta: 24,750,000,000,000

On the contrary, we know through statements that he couldn't beat Gohan-Boo (even as a Super Saiyan 3), who would be less than twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan, who would be less than twice as strong as Gotenks and Super Boo.

Something isn't adding up there.
Quote:
 
4) Why not should I make the comparision? Vegeta and Future Trunks only got like 4x stronger in their first RoSaT trip and Goku and Gohan (because of their efficency and the fact that they spent the whole year in there) were able to get 10-15x stronger. Me putting Goten and Trunks slightly over 2x stronger than their Pre-RoSaT self is a very fair assumption based on these facts and the fact that they only spent 15 days in the RoSaT.

Gains do not follow a pattern and aren't supposed to make sense to us. They are completely based on the plot. Toriyama didn't ask anyone, "Hey, is it alright if I make Goku two hundred times stronger in this one year of training, even though he only got two times stronger in three years before that?" He didn't ask any of us for approval of the strength of his characters. If he wanted Piccolo to suddenly become stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in two days, he'd do it. That kind of stuff never mattered to him because he didn't sit down with a calculator and map it out. He went with the flow.

And you're still bringing in your own personal numbers to justify your point, when those numbers aren't based on fact from the series. Anybody could argue, "Gotenks didn't get that strong because Goku and Gohan only got 3x stronger in the RoSaT from a whole year," and it'd be just as valid as what you're saying.
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These are the reasons why I don't take Piccolo's statement seriously and why Base Post > SSJ Pre is beyond facepalmary.

So is just about every other strength gain in the series.
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Yeah but if that theory was true, Everyone who Baby possesed should have that sorta power (Yes, even Videl).

That's why the theory explains that Vegeta would be the only one who kept the power because he was Baby's main goal, he was the true host, while the others were simply pawns that were thrown aside once Baby got what he needed.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 15 2013, 12:44 AM.
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ImmaGTBaby
Aug 14 2013, 07:33 PM
1) Show me proof that Buu's ki is a "lie"
Gohan, upon first seeing Buu, believes he can take him. Nope.
Vegeta believes he can take him. Nope.
Goku is unsure he could have defeated him, and specifically states "When it comes to Majin Buu’s strength, it’s like a lie".
Piccolo believes [Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks stands a chance. Nope.

Buu's Ki is deceptive.

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 14 2013, 07:33 PM
2) SSJ being 50x is the multiplier I use and is used a lot in the DBZ community. Even if the multiplier was like 10-20x Base, it's impossible for Goten and Trunks to have gotten that strong in a span of 15 days.
A lot of the DBZ community use SSJ = 50x Base... and a lot of the DBZ community disregard it. It is not the perfect system, which is why it has certain contradictions. It is a lazy model that tends to warp people's views of the story, as it seems to be doing with you.

Also, impossible gains are what this series is built upon. As OFG has said, strength gains are based on plot requirements. Goku went from a likely 10k-12k all the way to 90k in 6 days of training. Piccolo went from roughly 2k to at least 50k by meditating for a few days on King Kaio's planet. Vegeta slept his way to Freeza level. Sure, you could excuse that last one as Zenkai-logic... but the fact remains that Vegeta became as powerful as the plot required him to be.

Goten/Trunks could have increased their strength by 50x in those 2 weeks without contradicting a single thing [at least until I come to your next point].

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 14 2013, 07:33 PM
3) Gotenks's power corresponds with his fusees power Goten and Trunks. If Goten and Trunks don't make the huge gains, neither does Gotenks. If the fusess power isn't the same, the fusion doesn't work.
Gotenks' strength is based upon Goten and Trunks strength, yes but nothing says it is a fixed and simple formula... or that they maximized the outcome on their earlier attempts. Goten and Trunks are not noted to have made any significant strength gains [otherwise Piccolo would not have been freaking out as much as he did when they started the fusion dance] but Gotenks clearly did. Whether the formula is exponential, where slight increases for the boys correlate to huge increases for Gotenks, or perhaps they simply got better at fusing thus allowing Gotenks more power... it does not matter. What matters is that Gotenks was a lot stronger post-RoSaT than pre-RoSaT... but the boys seemed almost stagnant.

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 14 2013, 07:33 PM
4) Why not should I make the comparision? Vegeta and Future Trunks only got like 4x stronger in their first RoSaT trip and Goku and Gohan (because of their efficency and the fact that they spent the whole year in there) were able to get 10-15x stronger. Me putting Goten and Trunks slightly over 2x stronger than their Pre-RoSaT self is a very fair assumption based on these facts and the fact that they only spent 15 days in the RoSaT.
Goku/Gohan did not spend a whole year in the RoSaT... but that's minor/irrelevant and, I assume, unintentional.

Goku and Gohan were in the RoSaT for the same amount of time [as each other] yet Gohan completely overtook Goku.
We are shown that sparring is the far superior training technique... and yet Vegeta surpasses Goku during the Android training. You could argue that SSJ Goku was far beyond his partners, thus lowering his gains... but surely Piccolo, a character who reaches 3-year-trained-SSJ-tier by the end of the training, surpassed Goku's base with a year or so to spare.
Gohan makes superior gains to Piccolo during the few months they train together pre-Saiyans.

These are even more direct comparisons, people training at the same time... even with each other... making differing gains. You cannot use your comparisons as defense for your stance.

ImmaGTBaby
Aug 14 2013, 07:33 PM
These are the reasons why I don't take Piccolo's statement seriously and why Base Post > SSJ Pre is beyond facepalmary.
And so, I have stated my reasoning as to why I believe your reasoning is flawed.
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@ImmaGTBaby

Watch videos of combat athletes sparring. They go close to exerting themselves to improve their skill, technique, and conditioning. They just take extra precautions to not get hurt -- like in boxing, they were helmets and s***. As OFG said, there's absolutely no point half-arsing it whether you're trying to improve for a tournament or save the world. The point is you want to reach #1 or go as high as you can, so you need to improve, especially in Gohan's case because he's done nothing intense during the time skip and his power dwindled from it. Obviously Gohan and Goten weren't going all out because they aren't going for the kill, but they both want to improve for the tournament so it's only logical that they're going to exert themselves... otherwise what's the point?
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I'm going to weigh in on these important issues.

Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks are being way overrated. I agree with thread author on their placing. No way were their base forms a "threat" to 18. Gohan and Goten can't be compared, Gohan would never have really gone full force against his little brother. Their play sparring can't be seen as equivalent to a fight even if Goten surprised Gohan with his performance.

Piccolo and Vegeta were on par with each other when King Col and Frieza arrived. Piccolo may have been stronger. In the anime continuity, Piccolo battled Garlic Jr. while Vegeta didn't really train much in this period.

Krillin was stronger than Tien during the whole of Z and during the Buu saga as well. In the anime Tien might have been stronger during the Frieza saga but in the manga I doubt he ever was.

Kaioshin is below Piccolo. It is true Piccolo stated otherwise, but too many other feats and statements contradict this for me to weigh it heavily. Kaioshin is below both Pui Pui and Yakon. If Pui Pui was 18,000, Supreme Kai would have seen nothing unusual in Vegeta's making short work of him. Kaioshin was amazed because Vegeta beat an opponent like Pui Pui that would have given him serious trouble in a fight.
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Oh My Kami! I was gone for a few hours and all of this? Let me breath here guys lol.

@ObsessiveFanGuy

You doubt that a skilled MMA fighter could kick someone off a cliff? Even I can kick someone off a cliff and I haven't taken any MMA training.

Like Hercule did to the gunman? Probably not.

But you can't prove any of that. He made the effort to sprinkle appearances of the guy all throughout the last arc, when he could have just as easily left him out of the picture considering he didn't do anything but look stupid whenever someone powered up and get knocked out by Boo.

I'm still unconvinced of your claim of a nonchalant interview. Toriyama is always in a relaxed mood in his interviews, so I'm not entirely positive how you could make the distinction between "srs AT interview" and "AT dun care 'bout this interview."


I wasn't asserting that. But based on the fact that Toriyama HIMSELF addmited that he's forgetful can help me reach this conclusion. Don't believe me? Just read his statement in the Daiz 7.

"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan."
Akira Toriyama, Daizenshuu 7, 1996

There you have it! Toriyama admitted that he's forgetful. Not only that but the interview was done in 1996. Just a mere year after the manga's conclusion If he can be that forgetful, what makes you think he won't be in 2004? He shown it around the release of BoG when he forgot the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3. I'm not dissing the man or anything if that's what people are thinking. He has a life outside of Dragon Ball and manga in general. It's only natural that he can forget these kinda things. All of this is all the reason why I can make this claim.

You know what else every official battle power page showed? The gap between Krillin and Tenshinhan getting smaller and smaller.

The power gaps aren't really that great. The point is that based on what we saw, Tien was still ahead of Krillin.

That isn't a good argument at all. Tenshinhan hit the attack from the side with the Shin Kikoho, an attack meant for Dende no less, and showed up completely out of the blue. It's not as if Boo saw Ten there and shot it at him, and then Ten deflected it. Goku sliced Boo in half with a Kienzan, so by default Krillin could as well. Does that mean a thing? Not at all.

Okay, I really didn't want to go in to specifics since this isn't a Tien Vs Krillin thread but since your insisting, I will.

1) During the fight with #19 and #20, Goku told Krillin to leave with Yamcha and had Tien stay. Why? Because he wanted the two strongest warriors other than him to accompany him during the fight. One obviously being Piccolo and two Tien as seen by Goku's decision.

2) I think your trying to shake off that fact. You can't assume that Krillin could do the same thing. Base Goku makes Krillin look like a wimp. The bottom line is Tien deflected it (regardless of what side it came from) and Krillin coudn't land a punch on Super Buu or do anything to him for that matter.

3) It just occured to me that other than the interview, you have nothing to back up your Krillin > Tien argument in terms of manga evidence. I wan't to hear what you have to say about that.


Your cockiness is off-putting, and not a good way to go on this forum, just saying. As for your point, you're essentially saying Gohan didn't want to get back into shape. You can't half-ass that. Either you put the effort in and get in shape or you don't and stay a fat slob. There is no middle ground.

I'm just getting frustrated on how you can make such a claim based on a sparring match and not a serious fight. Like what Demon Flame said, Gohan woudn't go full force on his little brother.

And you can get in shape without fighting at full power. Gohan was training to get in to fighting shape. Your making it sound like Gohan was trying to lose weight or something.


I only go by the manga unless otherwise specified. The part in the fight you're talking about isn't proof at all of her giving them a good beating. Trunks was being pushed back, but No.18 didn't land any of those attacks except for the axe-handle, which as I already said, they bounced back from immediately, signifying it didn't do much damage if any.

If she could've won easily beforehand, why didn't she? Why did she allow the fight to drag on like that when she could have very easily increased her effort level and knocked Mighty Mask out of the ring?


Maybe I overexaggerated that but she did have a clear upper hand over the boys until they went SSJ. And why didn't she end the fight? Because Toriyama wanted the fight to be longer. By that logic, why didn't Freiza kill all the Z-Fighters before Goku arrived? Why didn't Super Buu just kill Gotenks and Piccolo before Gotenks went SSJ3? See where i'm getting at?

Where have you provided any evidence that supports him not starting the fight at full power? How would Vegeta have any basis for his claim if he hadn't sensed Goku's full power?

Because he wasn't able to start the fight at full power. Otherwise, he would've killed Buu right from the get go. Hence the reason why he needs time to charge up to full power. Vegeta not knowing SS3's full power is irrelevant.

You want evidence? Here's the dialogue in Volume 42, Chapter 8, Page 13.


Vegeta: Don't worry about me, just finish him off! While SS3 at full power, you can destroy him an instant.

Goku: That's what i've been trying to do. But I haven't been able to do that yet

Checkmate. He was trying to get to full power but wasn't able during his fight as displayed in Goku's statement. I gave you the evidence you needed. End of disscusion (for this topic at least).

Super Saiyan Gotenks and Piccolo couldn't even make a dent, yet Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks broke right out. The point here is that a certain level of power was necessary for Boo to break out of that dimension, one which he obtained during the fight with Gotenks, not before, signifying a clear power-up. Him screaming could very well be his equivalent of Fat Boo steaming, hence a power-up.

That shows he used his full power to escape the RoSaT. Buu had no power gains. And after reading the manga again, I think you might have had a point with Buu's ki being deceptive. But the reason why Piccolo had faith in Gotenks is because he knew he could go SSJ. If he made improvments in his Base form, obviously he would be stronger in his SSJ form. He didn't know that they could go SSJ while fused but he knew that they could still be SSJ's after they defused thus showing that Base Post > SSJ Pre isn't exactly the case.

Going by your levels, Gogeta would be 5.6x stronger than Gotenks, and end up making Gohan-Boo a mere 38% of his power.

Gotenks: 5,800,000,000
SS Gotenks: 290,000,000,000
SS2 Gotenks: 870,000,000,000 (Hypothetically)
SS3 Gotenks: 4,350,000,000,000

Gogeta: 33,000,000,000
SS Gogeta: 1,650,000,000,000
SS2 Gogeta: 4,950,000,000,000
SS3 Gogeta: 24,750,000,000,000

On the contrary, we know through statements that he couldn't beat Gohan-Boo (even as a Super Saiyan 3), who would be less than twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan, who would be less than twice as strong as Gotenks and Super Boo.

Something isn't adding up there.


What makes you believe Buuhan > SSJ3 Gogeta?

That's why the theory explains that Vegeta would be the only one who kept the power because he was Baby's main goal, he was the true host, while the others were simply pawns that were thrown aside once Baby got what he needed.

So that would mean Vegeta would have all of Baby's power in his Base form. If that were the case, then he would be stronger than Omega Shenron in SSJ2.

I don't buy it my friend.


@Vertical

I adressed your questions about Buu's ki in my response to OFG's question

Gotenks' strength is based upon Goten and Trunks strength, yes but nothing says it is a fixed and simple formula... or that they maximized the outcome on their earlier attempts. Goten and Trunks are not noted to have made any significant strength gains [otherwise Piccolo would not have been freaking out as much as he did when they started the fusion dance] but Gotenks clearly did. Whether the formula is exponential, where slight increases for the boys correlate to huge increases for Gotenks, or perhaps they simply got better at fusing thus allowing Gotenks more power... it does not matter. What matters is that Gotenks was a lot stronger post-RoSaT than pre-RoSaT... but the boys seemed almost stagnant.

Like I said before, it's impossible for Gotenks to get a godly boost and Goten and Trunks to not. There's no such thing as "maximizing the outcome". Goten and Trunks already perfected fusion before going in to the RoSaT. I think you don't like this because it's weakining your Base Post > SSJ Pre argument.

@Buuberries

Watch videos of combat athletes sparring. They go close to exerting themselves to improve their skill, technique, and conditioning. They just take extra precautions to not get hurt -- like in boxing, they were helmets and s***. As OFG said, there's absolutely no point half-arsing it whether you're trying to improve for a tournament or save the world. The point is you want to reach #1 or go as high as you can, so you need to improve, especially in Gohan's case because he's done nothing intense during the time skip and his power dwindled from it. Obviously Gohan and Goten weren't going all out because they aren't going for the kill, but they both want to improve for the tournament so it's only logical that they're going to exert themselves... otherwise what's the point?


There's a difference between not exerting yourself and not using your full power. Gohan was exerting himself but he wasn't using his full power. Like DF said, Gohan woudn't have gone full force against his little brother. OFG is making this a huge deal because I put Goten 3-4x weaker than Gohan (even though it was a sparring match and not a serious fight).

@Demon Flame

Kaioshin is below Piccolo. It is true Piccolo stated otherwise, but too many other feats and statements contradict this for me to weigh it heavily. Kaioshin is below both Pui Pui and Yakon. If Pui Pui was 18,000, Supreme Kai would have seen nothing unusual in Vegeta's making short work of him. Kaioshin was amazed because Vegeta beat an opponent like Pui Pui that would have given him serious trouble in a fight.

Another classic example of Kaioshin freaking out. All he said was that Vegeta "should be careful because Babidi has strong warriors". And based on the way Vegeta handled him, I think it's safe to say that Pui-Pui is way below Base Vegeta.
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Aug 15 2013, 04:09 AM
Gotenks' strength is based upon Goten and Trunks strength, yes but nothing says it is a fixed and simple formula... or that they maximized the outcome on their earlier attempts. Goten and Trunks are not noted to have made any significant strength gains [otherwise Piccolo would not have been freaking out as much as he did when they started the fusion dance] but Gotenks clearly did. Whether the formula is exponential, where slight increases for the boys correlate to huge increases for Gotenks, or perhaps they simply got better at fusing thus allowing Gotenks more power... it does not matter. What matters is that Gotenks was a lot stronger post-RoSaT than pre-RoSaT... but the boys seemed almost stagnant.

Like I said before, it's impossible for Gotenks to get a godly boost and Goten and Trunks to not. There's no such thing as "maximizing the outcome". Goten and Trunks already perfected fusion before going in to the RoSaT. I think you don't like this because it's weakining your Base Post > SSJ Pre argument.
Just a note in regard to your reply to OFG... Piccolo does not know Gotenks can transform... and the two defusing, waiting an hour, and then attempting it again as SSJ's would not be a valid reason for his reaction.


Onto our discussion. You seem to enjoy using the word "impossible"...

...how is it impossible for Gotenks to gain a lot of strength with Goten/Trunks making no noteworthy gains when it happens right there in the story? I presented possible explanations [an exponential fusion formula, maximizing the outcome of the fusion] for a situation that clearly exists.

Also, I'm a little unclear about what it is I "don't like"... or how whatever it is is weakening my argument.


[Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks is effectively stated.
[Post-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks >= [Pre-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks is heavily implied through lack of statements, and Piccolo's initial concern.

A person's formulas/numbers should conform to the story... the story shouldn't be manipulated/ignored to allow your formulas/numbers to work.
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Another classic example of Kaioshin freaking out. All he said was that Vegeta "should be careful because Babidi has strong warriors". And based on the way Vegeta handled him, I think it's safe to say that Pui-Pui is way below Base Vegeta.

Of course, Pui Pui is below Vegeta, that is what we saw on panel... The question is, is he stronger than Kaioshin? I think he is. If Pui Pui was a mere 18,000, Kaioshin wouldn't say "I was so wrong in underestimating Vegeta", he would be saying "I was so wrong in overestimating Pui Pui". I mean if Pui Pui was 18,000, Kaioshin would have been able to own him as easily as Vegeta did.

IMO,

Vegeta>Piccolo>Pui Pui>Kaioshin
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Like Hercule did to the gunman? Probably not.

He kicked him down a sloped mountain. How is that hard to do?
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I wasn't asserting that. But based on the fact that Toriyama HIMSELF addmited that he's forgetful can help me reach this conclusion. Don't believe me? Just read his statement in the Daiz 7.

"This Daizenshuu, the 7th and final one, is a huge Dragon Ball encyclopedia. I think the staff who make these books always have a rough time of it, but this one looked even more hellish than usual. They really did a great job. I am ridiculously forgetful, so despite being the author there is lots of stuff even I do not know anymore. It was often quite a nuisance, and I think having this encyclopedia around when the series was still running would have really helped me out. Darn it all. Anyway, my thanks to the staff, and to all Dragon Ball fan."
Akira Toriyama, Daizenshuu 7, 1996

There you have it! Toriyama admitted that he's forgetful. Not only that but the interview was done in 1996. Just a mere year after the manga's conclusion If he can be that forgetful, what makes you think he won't be in 2004? He shown it around the release of BoG when he forgot the difference between SSJ2 and SSJ3. I'm not dissing the man or anything if that's what people are thinking. He has a life outside of Dragon Ball and manga in general. It's only natural that he can forget these kinda things. All of this is all the reason why I can make this claim.

Yes, that's common knowledge about the guy, but you're not proving that he forgot about an entire character when discussing similar ones. I've proven that he thought of Tenshinhan as an earthling while drawing the manga, and the subject of the specific part in the interview in question was concerning the earthlings. I would think something would go off of in his head. Furthermore, it hasn't been shown that he forgot about Tenshinhan. We know he forgot Tao Pai Pai's name, we know he forgot Lunch, but what about Tenshinhan? Why did he all of the sudden forget about him?
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The power gaps aren't really that great. The point is that based on what we saw, Tien was still ahead of Krillin.
And I pointed out how with each time we got levels for them, the gap was smaller and smaller. Eventually, what do you think would happen?
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Okay, I really didn't want to go in to specifics since this isn't a Tien Vs Krillin thread but since your insisting, I will.

1) During the fight with #19 and #20, Goku told Krillin to leave with Yamcha and had Tien stay. Why? Because he wanted the two strongest warriors other than him to accompany him during the fight. One obviously being Piccolo and two Tien as seen by Goku's decision.

If you'll notice, Krillin was the closest to Yamcha's body (other than Piccolo). Tenshinhan was right beside Goku. With Yamcha dying, who do you think he'd choose to get him to the senzu beans? And there's always the argument that if Krillin was stronger, he'd be faster, thus getting Yamcha to safety even quicker.
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2) I think your trying to shake off that fact. You can't assume that Krillin could do the same thing. Base Goku makes Krillin look like a wimp. The bottom line is Tien deflected it (regardless of what side it came from) and Krillin coudn't land a punch on Super Buu or do anything to him for that matter.

I think you're not understanding the flaw in that logic. Canonically, the Kienzan is unblockable - it doesn't matter if Raditz throws it or Super Saiyan 5 Goku. Tenshinhan doesn't possess the ability to use that attack, so obviously he can't cut through enemies like Nappa, Freeza, or Boo. Krillin doesn't possess the ability to use the Shin Kikoho, so obviously he can't deflect any of Boo's attacks or stall an enemy like Cell. Plus, according to your logic, the mere fact that Krillin was about to potentially kill Nappa while Ten got killed would make Krillin the stronger of the two, wouldn't it?

Krillin's inability to hit Evil Boo is rather moot since Tenshinhan wouldn't be able to either.
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3) It just occured to me that other than the interview, you have nothing to back up your Krillin > Tien argument in terms of manga evidence. I wan't to hear what you have to say about that.

I don't have to say much. I've explained to you that the official levels show the gap getting smaller with each training session (showing what?), and until the Boo arc we don't have anything directly comparing the two; then we do get Yamcha's statement, which at worst would apply to the Cell Games and be an uncontradicted statement (he thought it to himself, after all). We don't get any comparative feats or statements thereafter. The interview would merely be the icing on top.

What would favor Tenshinhan? Him always training (and apparently farming as well), which isn't evidence whatsoever? Little scenarios that can be easily explained? I want to know what exactly makes you think Tenshinhan absolutely cannot be inferior to Krillin, when it's very possible and even implied/stated by the author?
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I'm just getting frustrated on how you can make such a claim based on a sparring match and not a serious fight. Like what Demon Flame said, Gohan woudn't go full force on his little brother.

And you can get in shape without fighting at full power. Gohan was training to get in to fighting shape. Your making it sound like Gohan was trying to lose weight or something.

I never claimed Gohan would go all-out on his brother. That would imply he'd be trying to kill Goten, which would be idiotic to assert. What I am saying is that there'd be no point in him sparring with such a weakling, regardless if he was trying to shake off the ring rust or defeat Cell. Training with weak people doesn't benefit the stronger person much at all, and in fact - by Goku's admittance - is only a hindrance. To get more into detail, both of them had their auras flared, which we know from other instances in the manga cannot mean a minimal amount of effort, and both were sweating and gritting their teeth (moreso in the second session). Gohan wouldn't need to be displaying any of that against someone on your Goten's level.
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Maybe I overexaggerated that but she did have a clear upper hand over the boys until they went SSJ. And why didn't she end the fight? Because Toriyama wanted the fight to be longer. By that logic, why didn't Freiza kill all the Z-Fighters before Goku arrived? Why didn't Super Buu just kill Gotenks and Piccolo before Gotenks went SSJ3? See where i'm getting at?
I never denied that she had the clear upper hand. Your examples are a bit off, as Freeza was toying with the Z-Fighters (or whenever he attempted to kill one, another would get in the way), and Boo didn't get the chance before Piccolo blew up the entrance to the room, after which he was only focused on getting out.
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Because he wasn't able to start the fight at full power. Otherwise, he would've killed Buu right from the get go. Hence the reason why he needs time to charge up to full power. Vegeta not knowing SS3's full power is irrelevant.

You want evidence? Here's the dialogue in Volume 42, Chapter 8, Page 13.

Vegeta: Don't worry about me, just finish him off! While SS3 at full power, you can destroy him an instant.

Goku: That's what i've been trying to do. But I haven't been able to do that yet

Checkmate. He was trying to get to full power but wasn't able during his fight as displayed in Goku's statement. I gave you the evidence you needed. End of disscusion (for this topic at least).

Ah, I'm pretty sure you're getting your information from a fanslation. Neither Herms nor Viz, both more accurate than what I'm assuming you're reading, have it translated that way. I've provided you with Herms's translation already, and Viz isn't much different.

Vizbig Vol.9, pg.351
Vegeta: "Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!"
Goku: "Well, I've been tryin' to, but...I haven't had the chance!"
Vegeta: "Eh?"
Goku: "I'd have to rev up for a whole minute to get enough power!"
Vegeta: "A minute?!"
Goku: "The Potara coulda done it. ...Maybe I tried to act too cool...But I thought this would be better!"
(The bolded is bolded in Viz.)

Both of my translations display the observation that Goku did indeed start at full power and his chance of using that power to destroy Boo slipped away due to him showing off too much, as he put it.
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That shows he used his full power to escape the RoSaT. Buu had no power gains. And after reading the manga again, I think you might have had a point with Buu's ki being deceptive. But the reason why Piccolo had faith in Gotenks is because he knew he could go SSJ. If he made improvments in his Base form, obviously he would be stronger in his SSJ form. He didn't know that they could go SSJ while fused but he knew that they could still be SSJ's after they defused thus showing that Base Post > SSJ Pre isn't exactly the case.

The boys would have to wait half an hour, defuse, wait an hour, and then fuse again for that to be the case. Boo was throwing a fit after waiting for about an hour. Do you really think he'd wait another hour and a half?
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What makes you believe Buuhan > SSJ3 Gogeta?

Despite knowing that Potara was permanent and having time to perform the dance, Goku blatantly declared that Potara was the only way to beat Gohan-Boo.

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P8.8
Context: Goku tries to get Vegeta to use the Potara with him, but Vegeta refuses
Goku: “Knowing you, I thought you might say that…! There ain’t any other way to beat Majin Boo!”


Gohan-Boo himself stated that a fusion of Vegeta and Goku wouldn't be able to beat him. He didn't know about the superiority of the Potara yet, mind you. I should note that unlike Gotenks-Boo, he didn't have any qualms with them merging.

Chapter: 503 (DBZ 309), P9.2
Context: as Goku heads to Vegeta with the Potara
Boo: “Now there’s another human with great power! But naturally he’s no match for me, even if they merged!”


Two uncontradicted statements putting Gogeta below Gohan-Boo.
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So that would mean Vegeta would have all of Baby's power in his Base form. If that were the case, then he would be stronger than Omega Shenron in SSJ2.

I don't buy it my friend.

What? How do you figure that?
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 15 2013, 06:16 AM.
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@Vertical

Just a note in regard to your reply to OFG... Piccolo does not know Gotenks can transform... and the two defusing, waiting an hour, and then attempting it again as SSJ's would not be a valid reason for his reaction.

Yes but he was reacting to the fact that they made advancements in Base form and knowing that they can go SSJ after defusing would be enough reason. He could have asked them if they could go SSJ but they attacked Buu immediatly and for the remainder of the Base Gotenks vs Super Buu fight, he was just facepalming of how stupid Gotenks is. He then learns that Gotenks can go SSJ after they do it.

Onto our discussion. You seem to enjoy using the word "impossible"...

...how is it impossible for Gotenks to gain a lot of strength with Goten/Trunks making no noteworthy gains when it happens right there in the story? I presented possible explanations [an exponential fusion formula, maximizing the outcome of the fusion] for a situation that clearly exists.

Also, I'm a little unclear about what it is I "don't like"... or how whatever it is is weakening my argument.

[Post-RoSaT] Base Gotenks > [Pre-RoSaT] SSJ Gotenks is effectively stated.
[Post-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks >= [Pre-RoSaT] Goten/Trunks is heavily implied through lack of statements, and Piccolo's initial concern.

A person's formulas/numbers should conform to the story... the story shouldn't be manipulated/ignored to allow your formulas/numbers to work.


First, you were crtiizing me for using fan-formulas as evidence and now you using fan-formulas of your own. I told you why your theory can't work. Their's only two outcomes for fusion. It's either it works, or it doesn't. If it works, the result is a full powered Gotenks. If it doesn't, the result is a Fat/Skinny Gotenks. Gotenks only gained as much as Goten and Trunks did. And you can't just say that because "it happens in the story". Piccolo never commented on the boys strength as individuals so their's no comparison here.

@Demon Flame

Of course, Pui Pui is below Vegeta, that is what we saw on panel... The question is, is he stronger than Kaioshin? I think he is. If Pui Pui was a mere 18,000, Kaioshin wouldn't say "I was so wrong in underestimating Vegeta", he would be saying "I was so wrong in overestimating Pui Pui". I mean if Pui Pui was 18,000, Kaioshin would have been able to own him as easily as Vegeta did.

IMO,

Vegeta>Piccolo>Pui Pui>Kaioshin


This is more of an issue of Kaioshin underestamating Vegeta then overstimating Pui Pui. He was just worried that Vegeta would lose to him. And I don't want to get in to the Base Saiyans Piccolo thing. Base Saiyans > Piccolo and Piccolo > Base Saiyans both have a possibility of being true and I happen to believe the former.

He kicked him down a sloped mountain. How is that hard to do?

It sorta looked like he kicked him high up in the air before he fell down. Not only that but the two criminals that Hercule attacked didn't even see his attack coming. He was that fast.

Yes, that's common knowledge about the guy, but you're not proving that he forgot about an entire character when discussing similar ones. I've proven that he thought of Tenshinhan as an earthling while drawing the manga, and the subject of the specific part in the interview in question was concerning the earthlings. I would think something would go off of in his head. Furthermore, it hasn't been shown that he forgot about Tenshinhan. We know he forgot Tao Pai Pai's name, we know he forgot Lunch, but what about Tenshinhan? Why did he all of the sudden forget about him?

I wasn't proving to you what was exactly on his mind in the interview. I was proving to you his forgetfulness and how easily it is for him to forget small things. That's why you can't make fact out of an interview. Unless it's stated in the manga that Krillin > Tien, then there's no concrete evidence to support it and that's the bottom line.

And I pointed out how with each time we got levels for them, the gap was smaller and smaller. Eventually, what do you think would happen?

Gaps aren't consistent. i.e. Base Goku and Piccolo were relatively close in power in Late DB, Early DBZ. Then in the Andriod Saga, the gap between them was Piccolo>>>>Base Goku. Then in the Buu Saga, Goku closed a portion of the gap. If that's not a good example, then look at Goku and Vegeta, constantly suprassing one another for the first half of DBZ.

If you'll notice, Krillin was the closest to Yamcha's body (other than Piccolo). Tenshinhan was right beside Goku. With Yamcha dying, who do you think he'd choose to get him to the senzu beans? And there's always the argument that if Krillin was stronger, he'd be faster, thus getting Yamcha to safety even quicker.

The thing is, Yamcha wasn't the main concern. The concern was to stop two maniacal andriods from destroying mankind., not to save 1 person. Yamcha was a secondary concern. Goku wanted the top two people in that group to accompany him and Krillin was the right man for the job as he wasn't one of those 2 people.

I think you're not understanding the flaw in that logic. Canonically, the Kienzan is unblockable - it doesn't matter if Raditz throws it or Super Saiyan 5 Goku. Tenshinhan doesn't possess the ability to use that attack, so obviously he can't cut through enemies like Nappa, Freeza, or Boo. Krillin doesn't possess the ability to use the Shin Kikoho, so obviously he can't deflect any of Boo's attacks or stall an enemy like Cell. Plus, according to your logic, the mere fact that Krillin was about to potentially kill Nappa while Ten got killed would make Krillin the stronger of the two, wouldn't it?

Krillin's inability to hit Evil Boo is rather moot since Tenshinhan wouldn't be able to either.


Yeah but your making the bad assumption that Krillin could use the same technique with the same effectivness as Tien.

I don't have to say much. I've explained to you that the official levels show the gap getting smaller with each training session (showing what?), and until the Boo arc we don't have anything directly comparing the two; then we do get Yamcha's statement, which at worst would apply to the Cell Games and be an uncontradicted statement (he thought it to himself, after all). We don't get any comparative feats or statements thereafter. The interview would merely be the icing on top.

What would favor Tenshinhan? Him always training (and apparently farming as well), which isn't evidence whatsoever? Little scenarios that can be easily explained? I want to know what exactly makes you think Tenshinhan absolutely cannot be inferior to Krillin, when it's very possible and even implied/stated by the author?


What would influence my decsion? The fact that Tien works his rear end off in training (not to mention he as a sparring partner to help). The fact that Tien is higher than Krillin in every official scan. The fact that Tien has done more to stop villians then Krillin ever did in DBZ. The fact that Krillin doesn't do jack in training after the Cell saga. And you? Just the interview which I already talked about.

I never claimed Gohan would go all-out on his brother. That would imply he'd be trying to kill Goten, which would be idiotic to assert. What I am saying is that there'd be no point in him sparring with such a weakling, regardless if he was trying to shake off the ring rust or defeat Cell. Training with weak people doesn't benefit the stronger person much at all, and in fact - by Goku's admittance - is only a hindrance. To get more into detail, both of them had their auras flared, which we know from other instances in the manga cannot mean a minimal amount of effort, and both were sweating and gritting their teeth (moreso in the second session). Gohan wouldn't need to be displaying any of that against someone on your Goten's level.

Having a sparring partner that's a lot weaker doesn't matter. Goku's statement applies if the person wants to train to get stronger. If Gohan was training to get stronger, he woudn't have trained with Goten. He trained to get back in to fighting shape and sparring with anyone can do just that. Heck, Gohan could supress himself to my power level and I would be a good sparring partner for him (even though I can't fight for beans lol). This isn't rocket science OFG.

I never denied that she had the clear upper hand. Your examples are a bit off, as Freeza was toying with the Z-Fighters (or whenever he attempted to kill one, another would get in the way), and Boo didn't get the chance before Piccolo blew up the entrance to the room, after which he was only focused on getting out.

1) Buu could have killed Base/SSJ Gotenks with ease.

2) I was just showing examples of how fights just go on. If fights were to end abruptly, that wouldn't be very fun to watch.


Ah, I'm pretty sure you're getting your information from a fanslation. Neither Herms nor Viz, both more accurate than what I'm assuming you're reading, have it translated that way. I've provided you with Herms's translation already, and Viz isn't much different.

Even with the translation you have, my point is still crystal clear. No I take that back. WIth the translation you gave me, my point is solid now.

Vegeta: "Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!"
Goku: "Well, I've been tryin' to, but...I haven't had the chance!"
Goku: "I'd have to rev up for a whole minute to get enough power!"

Notice how Vegeta says "Build up your chi" in the panel instead of plainly saying "with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him". And that Goku says he needed the minute to gain the power Vegeta was talking about. That soldifies the fact Goku needed time to get to full power and he wasn't before. I don't understand how you can continue to argue beyond this point.

The boys would have to wait half an hour, defuse, wait an hour, and then fuse again for that to be the case. Boo was throwing a fit after waiting for about an hour. Do you really think he'd wait another hour and a half?

*See the comment I made to Vertical.*

Despite knowing that Potara was permanent and having time to perform the dance, Goku blatantly declared that Potara was the only way to beat Gohan-Boo.

That only shows that Toriyama wanted them to fuse using Potara and not Fusion.

Gohan-Boo himself stated that a fusion of Vegeta and Goku wouldn't be able to beat him. He didn't know about the superiority of the Potara yet, mind you. I should note that unlike Gotenks-Boo, he didn't have any qualms with them merging.

That's just Buu being cocky.

What? How do you figure that?

Baby left Vegeta in his Base form. Logic will tell you that if he did recieve that power, that would go towards his Base power. And with that kind of power, he would be SSJ4 Gogeta tier in his SSJ2 form.

Looks like i'm done (for now). Let me get some shut eye guys lol.
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 15 2013, 07:06 PM.
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