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DBZ and DBGT Power Levels
Topic Started: Aug 12 2013, 06:00 AM (3,311 Views)
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I revised my list, check it out!

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8427347/1/
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 16 2013, 01:24 AM.
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There are a lot of problems with this.

First one would be Raditz at 1200.
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-Android 18 should be much higher than Vegeta during their fight. She was barely trying and Vegeta got tooled around.
-Vegeta also didn't get stronger than Cell Games Gohan until after his Majin Boost but you have him nearly twice as strong
-Goten and Trunks should be atleast near 18 in power, with you gap you have they should have been roasted
-Gotenks was stronger than his Pre ROSAT SSJ self
-Pan didn't improve any from the start of GT? Even when she wasn't enraged she was enough to provide power to make Naturon Shenron rival SSJ4 Goku.
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ObsessiveFanGuy
Aug 12 2013, 06:34 AM
There are a lot of problems with this.

First one would be Raditz at 1200.
What's wrong with Raditz at 1200? That was around where he was, it wasn't acturley stated, and it close enough to what the daiz says, there are other things you should be commenting on.


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Raditz > Saibamen.

Chapter: 215 (DBZ 21), P1.3
Nappa: “"Im-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!! Going just by power, he rivals Raditz...!!"


Quote:
 
Makankosappo (2nd Attempt): 1,440

This shouldn't really be stronger than his first attempt, given that he used a good chunk of energy on the first.
Quote:
 
Kaioken: 12,300
Kaioken x2: 16,400

They should be the same power. They're the same thing. I don't know why people still use "Kaio-ken x1.5" when it makes no sense whatsoever.
Quote:
 
Son Gohan (Zenkai): 3,000
Kuririn: 2,000

Chapter: 248 (DBZ 54), P12.2-5
Zarbon: “Lord Freeza… Concerning the reconnaissance we sent out earlier… It appears we’re facing more than ordinary beings. Their battle power momentarily rose again, and after defeating our scouts, their reading disappeared once more…”
Freeza: “I see. That is odd. It does not sound like Vegeta…”
Zarbon: “The reading is quite different from Vegeta’s. Their battle powers were both about 1,500.”
Freeza: “1,500…It won’t matter much if we just leave them alone, but their attitude doesn’t look so good. Wipe them out the next time you find them.”

Quote:
 
Captain Ginyu (In Goku`s Body): 24,000

Chapter: 288 (DBZ 94), P13.2-4
Context: Ginyu powers up in Goku’s body
Ginyu: "Guhahahahaha...!!!! Jheese!! How much is my battle power?!"
Jheese: ".....Twe... 23,000...."
Ginyu: “Twe…23,000…only 23,000…!?”

Quote:
 
Mecha Freeza (1%): 1,500,000
King Cold: 70,000,000

Chapter: 329 (DBZ 135), P12.3
Tenshinhan: “It…it’s not just one…There’s another absurdly large ki…”

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P2.3-4
Gohan: “Ku-Kuririn-san, did you notice it!? F-Freeza and ano-another large ki that resembles Freeza…!!”

Quote:
 
Vegeta: 4,200,000
Piccolo (With Weights): 10,000,000

Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P6.1-2
Context: after Piccolo says that only those with confidence in their abilities should come battle the androids
Vegeta: “Don’t make me laugh. Aren’t you’re the one with the least confidence?"
Piccolo: “What was that? You want to try me?”

Quote:
 
Andriod 19 (After Absorbing The Kamehameha): 530,000,000

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

Quote:
 
Krillin (Post-Training): 5,800,000
Tenshinhan (Post-Training): 8,000,000

Krillin > Tenshinhan, stated by Toriyama.
Quote:
 
Trunks (Post-Training): 8,000,000

Trunks has to be in the same league as Goku and Vegeta.
Quote:
 
Vegeta: 12,400,000
SS Vegeta: 620,000,000
Andriod 18: 630,000,000

Highly unlikely. She made quick work of him when she actually put the effort in.
Quote:
 
Imperfect Cell: 430,000,000

Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P2.1-2
Trunks: “I feel another stupendous ki…! There’s someone else!! Someone else I don’t know!!”
Kuririn: “It’s Piccolo!!!”
Note: so in other words, Trunks considers both Cell and Piccolo’s ki as ‘stupendous’.

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P10.1
Vegeta: “One of those guys with mysterious, absurdly large battle powers has vanished…But the other one remains…”
Context: the vanished one is Cell, and the remaining one is Piccolo

Quote:
 
Mr. Satan: 17

Prove it.
Quote:
 
SS2 Son Gohan: 21,000,000,000
SS2 Son Gohan (Injured): 17,000,000,000

Chapter: 415 (DBZ 221), P6.2-5
Context: after Gohan's injured saving Vegeta, and Cell charges up his final Kamehameha
Goku: “Go strike with an all-out Kamehameha, like Cell! If you do that, you’ll definitely win! Absolutely!”
Gohan: “B-but, the way I am now…I can only use one arm, and even my ki is already less than half…”
[ ]
Goku: “That’s alright, you can win! Believe in your own power! Show me one last time…The power we created together!”

Quote:
 
Mr. Satan (Post-Training): 19
Videl: 22

Going to need you to prove that.
Quote:
 
Son Gohan: 97,000,000
MSS Son Gohan: 4,850,000,000
Son Goten: 25,000,000
SS Son Goten: 1,250,000,000

How would Gohan even break a sweat against someone that's roughly a quarter of his strength?
Quote:
 
Son Goten: 27,000,000
SS Son Goten: 1,350,000,000
Trunks: 27,500,000
SS Trunks: 1,375,000,000

How would these guys ever a pose a threat to No.18 before transforming?
Quote:
 
Pui-Pui: 18,000

He'd be considered a threat, why?
Quote:
 
Yakon: 300,000,000

Now how would he be stronger than Kaioshin yet he's ten times weaker?
Quote:
 
SSJ Gotenks: 135,000,000,000

He was stated to be stronger than Goku and not a single thing contradicted that.
Quote:
 
Gotenks: 5,800,000,000

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start
Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...”

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.4
Context: Gotenks prepares to fight Boo after his training
Gotenks: “You stupid bastard! You’re greatly mistaken if you think that I’m the same as I was before…”

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!”

Quote:
 
Dimension Attack: 50,000,000,000,000 (not sure what it`s called)

Filler.
Quote:
 
SS3 Goku (Supressed): 105,000,000,000
SS3 Goku (Full Power): 247,500,000,000 (Had his full power for a very short time)

There is no suppressed Super Saiyan 3 Goku. There is Super Saiyan 3 Goku starting at full power every time, capable of only holding back effort.
Quote:
 
Kid Buu: 100,000,000,000

Being able to fight on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku would necessitate a much smaller gap, wouldn't you say?
Quote:
 
Son Goku (Adult): 265,000,000,000
Son Goku (Child): 250,000,000,000

Nothing in the show itself would support this. GT Perfect Files claims he only lost stamina.
Quote:
 
Goku: 250,000,000,000
SS Goku: 12,500,000,000,000
Rildo: 220,000,000,000
Rlido (1st Transformation): 8,900,000,000,000
Rildo(2nd Transformation): 11,300,000,000,000

The gaps are much too small. Base Goku was very clearly superior to Rild, and he was fooling with Rild's transformed states as a Super Saiyan.
Quote:
 
SS2 Vegeta: 675,000,000,000

Vegeta didn't use Super Saiyan 2 against Gohan and Goten.
Quote:
 
SS4 Goku (Beyond Limits): 5,500,000,000,000,000

He didn't go beyond his limits against Baby. He only needed to be brought back to full power.
Quote:
 
SS2 Vegeta: 1,147,500,000,000
Uub (Post-Training): 13,500,000,000,000

Why is Vegeta weaker here? The entire fight he did better than Oob.
Edited by Pyrus, Aug 12 2013, 08:58 AM.
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Leve Feyenoord 1!

I scanned the end of the Boo Arc a little bit and you have Evil Buu > Kid Buu > Fat Buu > Good Buu. It should be Kid Buu > Far Buu > Evil Buu > Good Buu, so something is not right there, and you have Pui Pui at 18,000? That's much too low, he's around #18's level

Also try to use Spoilers like this:

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Edited by Ginyu, Aug 12 2013, 12:41 PM.
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Good list. Just some things that need changing.

Base Saiyans > Piccolo ? Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Freeza

Imperfect Cell > SSJ Vegeta

50% suppressed Mecha >~ Kind Cold

Freeza is to low to SSJ Goku (Namek)

Base Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku / Majin Vegeta

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Furious

Quote:
 
I don't know why people still use "Kaio-ken x1.5
This is funimation's fault. Even in Kai, they distinguish "kaio-ken" and "kaio-ken x2" leading some people to believe that there's a difference.
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@ObsessiveFanGuy

I fixed a majority of the problems you had with my list. Some of the things you mentioned were false though.

Vegeta: 4,200,000
Piccolo (With Weights): 10,000,000


Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P6.1-2
Context: after Piccolo says that only those with confidence in their abilities should come battle the androids
Vegeta: “Don’t make me laugh. Aren’t you’re the one with the least confidence?"
Piccolo: “What was that? You want to try me?”


That doesn't show anything. That's just Vegeta mocking Piccolo being his usual douchy self.

Krillin (Post-Training): 5,800,000
Tenshinhan (Post-Training): 8,000,000


Krillin > Tenshinhan, stated by Toriyama.


Are you referring to Yamcha's statement in the Buu Saga? Well there's evidence to counter that. First, it was 7 years since Yamcha last saw Tien and thus coudn't sense his power level. Second, Tien was able to deflect an attack from Buutenks and Krillin coudn't even do anything to Super Buu.

Mr. Satan: 17


Prove it.

Mr. Satan (Post-Training): 19
Videl: 22


Going to need you to prove that.


What exactly do I need to prove? I'm not one of those people who believe that Kid Goku had a power level of 10 at the start of the series. Can you prove that i'm wrong?

Son Gohan: 97,000,000
MSS Son Gohan: 4,850,000,000
Son Goten: 25,000,000
SS Son Goten: 1,250,000,000

How would Gohan even break a sweat against someone that's roughly a quarter of his strength?


It was a sparring match. Goten suprised Gohan with his power.

Son Goten: 27,000,000
SS Son Goten: 1,350,000,000
Trunks: 27,500,000
SS Trunks: 1,375,000,000

How would these guys ever a pose a threat to No.18 before transforming?


They weren't. 18 was holding back. They needed SSJ for a reason.

Pui-Pui: 18,000

He'd be considered a threat, why?


Kaioshin overreacts a lot. Maybe it's because he was affilated with Babadi and as you know, Kaioshin is terrified of Babidi.

Yakon: 300,000,000

Now how would he be stronger than Kaioshin yet he's ten times weaker?


What makes you think he's stronger than Kaioshin? Wasn't he around Freiza's level?

SS3 Goku (Supressed): 105,000,000,000
SS3 Goku (Full Power): 247,500,000,000 (Had his full power for a very short time)

There is no suppressed Super Saiyan 3 Goku. There is Super Saiyan 3 Goku starting at full power every time, capable of only holding back effort.


Goku needed a full minute to store up his power remember? Thats the reason why Vegeta had to sub in for him and fight Kid Buu for a minute. He had his full power for a short time but lost it quickly. Read chapters 9, 10 and 11 of the manga in volume 42 and you'll know what I mean.

SSJ Gotenks: 135,000,000,000

He was stated to be stronger than Goku and not a single thing contradicted that.


He was though. He was stronger than the Supressed SS3 Goku that fought Fat Buu. Hence the reason Goku told Buu that someone stronger than him would fight him (referring to the fact that he was holding back). We didn't see SS3 Goku at full power until his fight with Kid Buu. To reidirate,

SS3 Goku (Supressed): 86,000,000,000
SS Gotenks (Pre): 135,000,000,000
SS3 Goku (Full Power): 247,500,000,000
SS Gotenks (Post): 290,000,000,000


Gotenks: 5,800,000,000


Chapter 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn't like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start.
Trunks:: I think...that we've already progressed sp much that even in a regular state of fusion, we'll be about equal with Majin Boo..."

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.4
Context: Gotenks prepares to fight Boo after his training
Gotenks: " You stupid bastard! You're greatly mistaken if you think that i'm the same as I was before..."

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5
Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: "He-he really is different...! He really has greatly powered up...! Th-this just might...!

Oh boy. Your not one of those people who believe Base Gotenks (Post) > SS3 Goku are you? Because that statement is completly bogus

Chapter 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn't like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start.
Trunks:: I think...that we've already progressed sp much that even in a regular state of fusion, we'll be about equal with Majin Boo..."


Trunks says that he would be about equal with Fat Buu in a regular state of fusion. Mind you, when he said regular state of fusion, he meant being fused as SSJ's because they had already achieved that before entering. SSJ fusion is regular to him because it's already been done.

And the Base Post > SSJ Pre is even more ridiculous if you believe that Goten and Trunks got over 50x stronger in 15 days.


Dimension Attack: 50,000,000,000,000 (not sure what it`s called)


Filler.


Your right, I fixed that.


SS2 Vegeta: 1,147,500,000,000
Uub (Post-Training): 13,500,000,000,000


Why is Vegeta weaker here? The entire fight he did better than Oob.


Super 17 was toying with Vegeta the whole time.
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Quote:
 
That doesn't show anything. That's just Vegeta mocking Piccolo being his usual douchy self.

The status quo doesn't change just because. Vegeta was much stronger on Namek, both of them trained afterwards, so why would Piccolo suddenly become that much stronger than him? Do you have any valid reason for this, or is it just your opinion based on no real evidence from the manga?
Quote:
 
Are you referring to Yamcha's statement in the Buu Saga? Well there's evidence to counter that. First, it was 7 years since Yamcha last saw Tien and thus coudn't sense his power level. Second, Tien was able to deflect an attack from Buutenks and Krillin coudn't even do anything to Super Buu.

I implore you to read this.
Quote:
 
What exactly do I need to prove? I'm not one of those people who believe that Kid Goku had a power level of 10 at the start of the series. Can you prove that i'm wrong?

If you don't think Goku was 10 at the beginning then I'm not going to continue this particular argument.
Quote:
 
It was a sparring match. Goten suprised Gohan with his power.

Have you read the manga or just seen the anime?
Quote:
 
They weren't. 18 was holding back. They needed SSJ for a reason.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Quote:
 
Kaioshin overreacts a lot. Maybe it's because he was affilated with Babadi and as you know, Kaioshin is terrified of Babidi.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634
Quote:
 
What makes you think he's stronger than Kaioshin? Wasn't he around Freiza's level?

Not even close. Kaioshin was sweating when he saw Yakon and urged the Z-Fighters to gang up on him, and Daizenshuu 7 supports this.[1]

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P7.2-5
Context: after Yakon slashes Goku
Gohan: “Oh! He’s huge, but quick!”
Kaioshin: “Let’s fight together!”
Gohan: “Nah, I think father will be perfectly fine on his own.”
Kaioshin: “…”

Quote:
 
Goku needed a full minute to store up his power remember? Thats the reason why Vegeta had to sub in for him and fight Kid Buu for a minute. He had his full power for a short time but lost it quickly. Read chapters 9, 10 and 11 of the manga in volume 42 and you'll know what I mean.

I'm not sure what that has to do with Goku being suppressed. I know perfectly well that Goku needed to charge up his power after fighting Pure Boo.
Quote:
 
He was though. He was stronger than the Supressed SS3 Goku that fought Fat Buu. Hence the reason Goku told Buu that someone stronger than him would fight him (referring to the fact that he was holding back). We didn't see SS3 Goku at full power until his fight with Kid Buu. To reidirate,

SS3 Goku (Supressed): 86,000,000,000
SS Gotenks (Pre): 135,000,000,000
SS3 Goku (Full Power): 247,500,000,000
SS Gotenks (Post): 290,000,000,000

He isn't stronger than Goku according to your levels. It wasn't, "He'll be stronger than me [if I was suppressed lol]." It was, "He'll be stronger than me!" Not to mention Goku never actually told Boo that.

Check this out. You mostly only have to read the fourth section.
Quote:
 
Oh boy. Your not one of those people who believe Base Gotenks (Post) > SS3 Goku are you? Because that statement is completly bogus

Chapter 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5
Context: Trunks doesn't like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start.
Trunks:: I think...that we've already progressed sp much that even in a regular state of fusion, we'll be about equal with Majin Boo..."

Trunks says that he would be about equal with Fat Buu in a regular state of fusion.

Evil Boo, who was already stated to be stronger than Fat Boo. He saw the guy on the Lookout before going into the RoSaT.
Quote:
 
Mind you, when he said regular state of fusion, he meant being fused as SSJ's because they had already achieved that before entering. SSJ fusion is regular to him because it's already been done.

What would be the point of specifying "regular state" of fusion if he was talking about Super Saiyan Gotenks? "Regular state" is synonymous with Base.

Chapter: 474 (DBZ 280), P3.3-8, P4.1, P7.5
Goku: “First, this is my regular state. This is Super Saiyan. Then this is what I showed your before, a Super Saiyan that has surpassed Super Saiyan…’Super Saiyan 2’, you could call it. [ ] And so…[ ] This…Ev-even further surpasses that…[ ] …This is Super Saiyan 3. Sorry that took so long. I’m still not used to this transformation.”

Quote:
 
And the Base Post > SSJ Pre is even more ridiculous if you believe that Goten and Trunks got over 50x stronger in 15 days.

Nothing was said about the boys getting that powerful.
Quote:
 
Super 17 was toying with Vegeta the whole time.

He was toying with the whole group, but Vegeta got up from the same attacks that put everyone else down.
[1] http://web.archive.org/web/20111103154419/http://kanzentai.com/trans-daiz07.php?m=03&id=character_v-z#yakon
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The status quo doesn't change just because. Vegeta was much stronger on Namek, both of them trained afterwards, so why would Piccolo suddenly become that much stronger than him? Do you have any valid reason for this, or is it just your opinion based on no real evidence from the manga?

That's because Piccolo got stronger than Base Saiyans in those time skips. This is even shown in the Andriod saga where Dr. Gero tanked a punch from Base Goku and Piccolo easily handled Dr. Gero.

I implore you to read this.

I read it and there's nothing that suggests Krillin > Tien other than Yamcha's statement in the Buu Saga (which I already discussed). You could throw all those statements and what not but that doesn't change the fact that Tien showed more strength in DBZ than Krillin did (as I mentioned in my previous post). All of this plus the fact that Tien trains and Krillin doesn't. Facts > Statements

If you don't think Goku was 10 at the beginning then I'm not going to continue this particular argument.

That's fine. It's just that there's no way Goku could have a PL of 10 at the start of DB based on his feats. He has to be at least in the 30-50 range.

Have you read the manga or just seen the anime?

Both. In the anime, he attacks while Gohan is ready to face him and in the manga he attacks while Gohan is still talking thus catching him off guard.

And on the Andriod 18 vs Goten and Trunks topic, Trunks says that they will be at a disadvantage regardless of being SSJ or not because their movements are restricted in the outfit they were wearing. It doesn't support your claim at all.

Not even close. Kaioshin was sweating when he saw Yakon and urged the Z-Fighters to gang up on him, and Daizenshuu 7 supports this

Base Goku was stronger than Yakon

Unless your arguing Base Saiyans > Piccolo (which is a very ridiculous claim) Kaioshin should be stronger as he was stronger than Piccolo. Like I said before, Kaioshin overracts to anything relating to Babidi.


I'm not sure what that has to do with Goku being suppressed. I know perfectly well that Goku needed to charge up his power after fighting Pure Boo.

Maybe supressed isn' the word i'm looking for. He wasn't at full power and the whole reason why he needed a minute to store energy was to have access to his full power. Vegeta states that a full power SSJ3 Goku would beat Kid Buu in an instant which is why he stalled a minute for Goku.

He isn't stronger than Goku according to your levels. It wasn't, "He'll be stronger than me [if I was suppressed lol]." It was, "He'll be stronger than me!" Not to mention Goku never actually told Boo that.

He didn't tell him that but it was implied later on that Goku was holding back against Buu. That's why Goku said their would be an opponet stronger than him because Goku wasn't trying against Fat Buu.

SS Gotenks (Pre) is only stronger than SS3 Goku (Supressed).


Evil Boo, who was already stated to be stronger than Fat Boo. He saw the guy on the Lookout before going into the RoSaT.

What would be the point of specifying "regular state" of fusion if he was talking about Super Saiyan Gotenks? "Regular state" is synonymous with Base.


Your right about them seeing him before entering the RoSaT. But even if he was implying that he could take Super Buu in base form, that's certainly not the case as Gotenks wasn't on Super Buu's level until going SS3. I guess Trunks just got ahead of himself when making that statement.

Nothing was said about the boys getting that powerful.

Then we agree.

He was toying with the whole group, but Vegeta got up from the same attacks that put everyone else down.

That shows that he has the most resiliency in the group.
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Quote:
 
That's because Piccolo got stronger than Base Saiyans in those time skips. This is even shown in the Andriod saga where Dr. Gero tanked a punch from Base Goku and Piccolo easily handled Dr. Gero.

Piccolo's strength in the android saga has nothing to do with his strength three years earlier. We know Piccolo surpassed the Base Saiyans there because it's shown by feats and statements, all of which are absent in the case you're trying to argue. When the status quo changes, we're clued in by statements, feats, or implications of some sort. Where were any statements, feats, or implications for Piccolo's superiority when Mecha Freeza showed up? The most you'd have is the statement I showed, which would at best put Vegeta and Piccolo on par with each other.
Quote:
 
I read it and there's nothing that suggests Krillin > Tien other than Yamcha's statement in the Buu Saga (which I already discussed). You could throw all those statements and what not but that doesn't change the fact that Tien showed more strength in DBZ than Krillin did (as I mentioned in my previous post). All of this plus the fact that Tien trains and Krillin doesn't. Facts > Statements

I honestly don't think you read it all, then, or you didn't go in with an open mind. Your entire argument was debunked before you even posted it. Points #6, #7, #8, #17, #20, #21, and #22 in the counter-argument section specifically address your entire argument and debunk it.
Quote:
 
Both. In the anime, he attacks while Gohan is ready to face him and in the manga he attacks while Gohan is still talking thus catching him off guard.

Going by your levels, Goten would pose no trouble for Gohan whatsoever, regardless of how rusty he was. Gohan was visibly forced back by Goten's assault, which could partially be blamed on his surprise at Goten's power, but he was also gritting his teeth and sweating, and both of them had an aura up. Their second sparring session, even though it's about one page, is even more telling of the difference between them. I'm not denying that Goten is inferior, but less than half of Gohan's power? That's a bit ridiculous to me.
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And on the Andriod 18 vs Goten and Trunks topic, Trunks says that they will be at a disadvantage regardless of being SSJ or not because their movements are restricted in the outfit they were wearing. It doesn't support your claim at all.
They needed Super Saiyan for the power, yes, but the fighting before that shouldn't be ignored. She went in thinking Mighty Mask was a regular human and gradually realized he was anything but, even firing a ki blast that had almost no affect on the kids. All she had to do was increase her strength output and knock them out of the ring.
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Base Goku was stronger than Yakon

Unless your arguing Base Saiyans > Piccolo (which is a very ridiculous claim) Kaioshin should be stronger as he was stronger than Piccolo. Like I said before, Kaioshin overracts to anything relating to Babidi.

I don't believe Piccolo was actually weaker than Kaioshin. The only thing outright stating that is Kaioshin's Daizenshuu 7 bio. The manga itself paints a different picture with the circumstances of Piccolo forfeiting.
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Maybe supressed isn' the word i'm looking for. He wasn't at full power and the whole reason why he needed a minute to store energy was to have access to his full power. Vegeta states that a full power SSJ3 Goku would beat Kid Buu in an instant which is why he stalled a minute for Goku.

Goku started the fight at full power, but due to underestimating Boo and not knowing about the strain of Super Saiyan 3 in a living body, he lost his window of opportunity. That's why he needed to take a minute to regather himself.
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He didn't tell him that but it was implied later on that Goku was holding back against Buu. That's why Goku said their would be an opponet stronger than him because Goku wasn't trying against Fat Buu.

SS Gotenks (Pre) is only stronger than SS3 Goku (Supressed).

Not going "all-out" was more than likely in reference to Goku not going for the kill. It wouldn't have anything to do with him suppressing his power considering the complete unlikeliness of him being able to do that.
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Your right about them seeing him before entering the RoSaT. But even if he was implying that he could take Super Buu in base form, that's certainly not the case as Gotenks wasn't on Super Buu's level until going SS3. I guess Trunks just got ahead of himself when making that statement.

Boo was suppressed, but take him out of it for a moment and simply look at the statements about Gotenks. First Piccolo didn't think Gotenks had any chance at all, even with the RoSaT training, but after seeing him again he had hope. Regardless of Boo, that's all that needs to be said for Gotenks's power growth.
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Then we agree.

We agree on the boys not getting that powerful.
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That shows that he has the most resiliency in the group.

The tone of multiple comments would support my argument.

Episode 45
Time: 7m30s
Context: Goku is watching the fight from Hell
Goku: "Awesome! What a guy! He's treating Vegeta almost as if he were a little kid!"

Episode 45
Time: around 18m55s
Context: Vegeta has gotten back up to continue fighting
Vegeta: "Now listen! I am Number One around here! I don't need to go calling on Kakarot to come defend the Earth! So long as I, Vegeta-sama, am around, that's enough!"

Episode 46
Time: around 1m40s
Context: Recap of last episode
Narrator: "As even Vegeta burned himself out, Goku finally appeared!"
Spoiler: click to toggle
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IllogicalGlory
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Kamehameha: 950
This one clocked at exactly 924, but that's not a big issue.
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Piccolo (Post-Training): 3,500
Piccolo should not be stronger than enraged Gohan. Because...

Chapter: 220 (DBZ 26), P3.2
Piccolo: “Be confident, Gohan. If you put your mind to it, your power surpasses mine.”
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Oozaru Vegeta: 180,000
Vegeta was almost certainly weakened by the first beam struggle and it was noted that he lost power by creating the fake moon. He should be lower as an Oozaru.
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Son Gohan (Zenkai): 22,000
Gohan should be stronger than Ginyu-Goku; he did call him a novice after all. If Ginyu was stronger than him, I doubt Gohan would be so bold.

Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P2.4
Context: after Ginyu blasts Gohan
Gohan: “Did you think a novice attack like that would work against me?!”
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Recoome: 40,000
Burter: 42,000
Jeice: 45,000
Their powers were noted to be about equal, I doubt there'd be a difference like that. Recoom and Burter have better feats than Jeice too, IMO.
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Son Gohan (2nd Zenkai): 110,000
Kuririn: 75,000
These two weaklings would never get any credit from Vegeta, but they did, so they must be stronger. They were supposed to be a help against Freeza and the power that you give them is no help at all.
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Son Gohan (3rd Zenkai, Angry): 1,400,000
This guy should be stronger than Piccolo, Piccolo was helpless against Freeza while Gohan (somewhat) gave him a run for his money.
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Kaioken x20 Kamehameha: 80,000,000
Final Form Freeza (50%): 75,000,000
It's easier to just say the kaio-ken x20 has no amp. There's no way Goku could be above him. Freeza almost blocked this with one hand and was uninjured when he took the full force of it.

I might post more later.
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Piccolo's strength in the android saga has nothing to do with his strength three years earlier. We know Piccolo surpassed the Base Saiyans there because it's shown by feats and statements, all of which are absent in the case you're trying to argue. When the status quo changes, we're clued in by statements, feats, or implications of some sort. Where were any statements, feats, or implications for Piccolo's superiority when Mecha Freeza showed up? The most you'd have is the statement I showed, which would at best put Vegeta and Piccolo on par with each other.

But that statement doesn't show any superiority on Vegeta's part. It's just him mocking him. At best, you can argue Piccolo > Vegeta since Piccolo responded with "You want to try me" showing that he was confident he could beat Vegeta.

I honestly don't think you read it all, then, or you didn't go in with an open mind. Your entire argument was debunked before you even posted it. Points #6, #7, #8, #17, #20, #21, and #22 in the counter-argument section specifically address your entire argument and debunk it.

I read them all and i'm going to adress them

6. Sorry, but still, no. In the guidebook Dragon Ball Tenka’ichi Densetsu[5], Toriyama is interviewed alongside Masako Nozawa and Takao Koyama, the series organizer for the anime. In the interview, he and Koyama both agreed that Krillin was the strongest Earthling.

Given the context of that interview, I'd doubt he actually thought about Tien since it was a more laid back interview and he didn't put much thought in his answer.

7. This is another flimsy argument that just sounds desperate. Toriyama showed Tenshinhan all the way through the Boo arc, so him forgetting about the guy altogether seems highly unlikely.

And how is that desperate? It's very plausable that might be the case. Toriyama's good at forgetting characters. He forgot about Launch for almost the entire course of DBZ and he forgot the difference between SS2 and SS3 when working on BOG. Not to mention Tien was only their for a chapter than he was gone.

17. That's a flawed argument. The only way we could compare the two would be if Krillin used the same attack in the same situation; otherwise we'd only be making baseless assumptions.

Can Krilllin use the Kikoho? No! That would be impossible. Your just trying to fend off that argument.

20. Well, that's not actually a valid argument. Nowhere in that was any evidence put forth to support those claims. Regardless, Tenshinhan making big gains is conjecture, as is the assumption that he could get as powerful as No.16 or even stronger than that. Plot determines the power of every character (remember that!). No character gets much stronger just because. It hasn't, doesn't, and never will work that way, at least in regards to DBZ. Saying Tenshinhan got that strong simply because you think so is a silly "argument," and not one even worth humoring to most debaters.

I never argued that Tien was even near 16's strength. Hell, he doesn't even come close to 100% Freiza. I'm just saying that after training for that length of time, he got stronger than Krillin.

21. That would be a logical assumption, but it would only work up to a point. Chaozu was blatantly painted as too weak to be of use in fights anymore, and never became useful again after the battler with Nappa; his strength was clearly not up to par with Tenshinhan. When Goku wanted to train Gohan in the Room of Spirit and Time, Gohan asked if he would just get in his father's way, and Goku's response was that he would until he achieved Super Saiyan, indicating that two sparring partners should ideally be similar in strength to really be beneficial toward each other. Chaozu and Tenshinhan were not close in strength, and thus Tenshinhan wouldn't gain much of anything from training with him. It's possible Chaozu gained a lot training with Tenshinhan, but not the other way around.

22. Actually, I don't hate Tenshinhan. I hate the fans of his that are so blinded by his "badassness" that they can't form a valid argument in debates, and refuse to accept that maybe he isn't the greatest. I have no real problem with Tenshinhan as a character. I admit I prefer Krillin, but he's not even in my top ten favorite characters, so I don't think I'm a "Krillin w***er" either.

I never argued any of those points. The bottom line is based what i've seen in the manga, Tien is stronger than Krillin (as I mentioned in a previous post). You can take that and all of your bogus statements to the bank. Now, back to the other points.

Going by your levels, Goten would pose no trouble for Gohan whatsoever, regardless of how rusty he was. Gohan was visibly forced back by Goten's assault, which could partially be blamed on his surprise at Goten's power, but he was also gritting his teeth and sweating, and both of them had an aura up. Their second sparring session, even though it's about one page, is even more telling of the difference between them. I'm not denying that Goten is inferior, but less than half of Gohan's power? That's a bit ridiculous to me.

You need to understand the difference between a sparring match and a serious fight. Even if their was a huge gap, a sparring match would be close because the stronger fighter would hold back against the weaker fighter to make it more fair. If this was serious fight, you would be right.

They needed Super Saiyan for the power, yes, but the fighting before that shouldn't be ignored. She went in thinking Mighty Mask was a regular human and gradually realized he was anything but, even firing a ki blast that had almost no affect on the kids. All she had to do was increase her strength output and knock them out of the ring.

18 didn't have intent to kill when she fired the ki blast. And that still doesn't change the fact that SSJ was needed for them to win.

I don't believe Piccolo was actually weaker than Kaioshin. The only thing outright stating that is Kaioshin's Daizenshuu 7 bio. The manga itself paints a different picture with the circumstances of Piccolo forfeiting.

It's universally accepted that Kaioshin > Piccolo. The Daiz only helps support that argument. And even if it wasn't the case, it doesn't change the fact that Piccolo > Base Saiyans.

Goku started the fight at full power, but due to underestimating Boo and not knowing about the strain of Super Saiyan 3 in a living body, he lost his window of opportunity. That's why he needed to take a minute to regather himself.

Your just making that up. He fully knew what was coming at him and he coudn't access his full power until he got a minute to spare (Only to lose it again). Notice how Vegeta says "While SS3 at full power" and not just simply "While SS3".

Boo was suppressed, but take him out of it for a moment and simply look at the statements about Gotenks. First Piccolo didn't think Gotenks had any chance at all, even with the RoSaT training, but after seeing him again he had hope. Regardless of Boo, that's all that needs to be said for Gotenks's power growth.

Two things. One, how the hell was Buu supressed? Two, like I mentioned earlier, Facts > Statements. Piccolo originally thought that Base Gotenks had a chance against Super Buu only for him to fail misearably again. Neither did he stand a chance in SSJ. Only when he went SSJ3 did he have a chance of winning.

We agree on the boys not getting that powerful.

Yes good sir

The tone of multiple comments would support my argument.

What comments? Anyways, I have Uub > Vegeta since Uub did very well against a much more powerful Baby possesed Vegeta (who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku) and as you may already know, GT Base Goku > GT SSJ Vegeta and Uub was on par with GT Base Goku before merging with Good Buu.


Note: It's like 11:37 here in Canada so I won't be able to respond until tommorow. I'll respond to you guys then. Ciao!
Edited by Yusuke, Aug 13 2013, 03:37 AM.
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IllogicalGlory
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And how is that desperate? It's very plausable that might be the case. Toriyama's good at forgetting characters. He forgot about Launch for almost the entire course of DBZ and he forgot the difference between SS2 and SS3 when working on BOG. Not to mention Tien was only their for a chapter than he was gone.
I beg to differ.

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8792057&t=8424885
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Two things. One, how the hell was Buu supressed?
Boo's ki is like a lie, who knows what Piccolo sensed. Maybe he was just being optimistic, but that part doesn't matter. All that matters is that he had no faith in pre-rosat Gotenks and he did have some faith in post rosat Gotenks; he also does not know that Gotenks can go SSJ after fusion.
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Can Krilllin use the Kikoho? No! That would be impossible. Your just trying to fend off that argument.
It doesn't matter whether Krillin can use the kikoho. The point is, we don't know what Krillin's kikoho would do if he could use it. Using that argument, I could say that Krillin (saiyan arc) > Tenshinhan because Krillin could cut him in half with the kienzan. I could also say that Freeza arc Krillin > Vegeta because Krillin cut off Freeza's tail.
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You need to understand the difference between a sparring match and a serious fight. Even if their was a huge gap, a sparring match would be close because the stronger fighter would hold back against the weaker fighter to make it more fair. If this was serious fight, you would be right.
Holding back during training makes training useless. That's why Gohan was holding Goku back during their training in the RoSaT. If Goku could just suppress so he could put out effort, that would not have been the case. This quote from OFG sums it up perfectly:
ObsessiveFanGuy
 
"Hi, my name's Damien. I'm a world class bodybuilder; that means I can deadlift at least 700 pounds. Impressive, right?! Yeah, well, I got cocky and slouched for a year or two, but now I'm ready to go again and it's time to get back in shape. So in order to do that I'm going to push it all the way to the max...with 100 pounds!"
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Yes good sir
Gotenks did though.
Edited by IllogicalGlory, Aug 13 2013, 03:53 AM.
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