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How strong was Future Gohan (with 2 arms)
Topic Started: Aug 11 2013, 11:34 AM (2,154 Views)
Demon Flame
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It implies nothing of the sort. Vegeta never says that 19 was stronger than Trunks. All he says is 19 was weaker than Trunks claimed. Which was certainly true, because Trunks later on said 19 and 20 were weak compared to the androids he knew. Now Trunks himself thought he might be strong enough to fight the androids of his time, but Bulma warned him against it. Since these androids were nothing like 'the rumors' as Vegeta put it, the impression all this gives me is not that 19>Trunks. Its' exactly the opposite.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

SSJ Vegeta (Androids) > SSJ Goku (Androids) > SSJ Trunks (Androids) >/>> Piccolo (Pre-Kami) >/>> #20 (Post-absorptions) >>/>>> #19 (Post-Goku's energy) >~ SSJ Goku (Sick) > SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Trunks (Trunks Saga) > SSJ Mirai Gohan (1 arm) > Mecha Freeza > SSJ Goku (Namek) >~ SSJ Mirai Gohan (2 arms) > 100% Freeza

That's what I normally run with
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+ Kyouks
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He doesn't say they were "nothing" like the rumors, he says they didn't seem "as terrible." If it were the former you'd be correct, but the latter implies that the "rumors" are neither true nor are they entirely false. The rumors were that two androids could knock the daylights out of Trunks. If #19 wasn't "as terrible" as that description, he'd still be beating Trunks, but he wouldn't be knocking the daylights out of him.
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Demon Flame
Aug 11 2013, 11:17 PM
It implies nothing of the sort. Vegeta never says that 19 was stronger than Trunks. All he says is 19 was weaker than Trunks claimed. Which was certainly true, because Trunks later on said 19 and 20 were weak compared to the androids he knew. Now Trunks himself thought he might be strong enough to fight the androids of his time, but Bulma warned him against it. Since these androids were nothing like 'the rumors' as Vegeta put it, the impression all this gives me is not that 19>Trunks. Its' exactly the opposite.
Why would Vegeta have to say No.19 was stronger than Trunks? That would be the belief going into a statement about his strength, so saying he wasn't "as bad" as the rumors said would only lessen how much of a gap he had on Trunks compared to what he was supposed to have.

When did Trunks say he thought Nos.19 and 20 were weaker than the ones he knew? All I'm seeing is him comparing his future androids to the ones in the present timeline, not including 19 and 20.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 357 (DBZ 163), P4.3
Trunks: “…But somehow I ended up coming to a past slightly different than the one I know…The timing of Goku’s heart disease was different, there are 3 androids, and their strength is greater too…”
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

''It looks like that brat lied to us. These Androids aren't strong at all. To think I believed him when he said that they killed me in his time. Bah, as if the Prince of all Saiyans would fall to trash like this.''

I'm sure we would've seen something like this if Trunks > #19 was even a viable option
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Zenet
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Vegeta quote about the Androids not being as terrible would indicate Initial Android 19 / 20 > Trunks in my opinion since that would be there actual power.
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+ Kyouks
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He confirms his thoughts when #19 punches him, though, so it'd have to refer to #19 after absorption.
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+ miguelnuva
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To me two arms is stronger than SSJ F Vegeta but weaker or about the same as Namek Goku.

SSJ Goku(namek)>/=SSJ F Gohan>Frieza(100%)>/=SSJ F Vegeta.
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Gogeta power placement
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Demon Flame
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ObsessiveFanGuy
Aug 11 2013, 11:35 PM
Demon Flame
Aug 11 2013, 11:17 PM
It implies nothing of the sort. Vegeta never says that 19 was stronger than Trunks. All he says is 19 was weaker than Trunks claimed. Which was certainly true, because Trunks later on said 19 and 20 were weak compared to the androids he knew. Now Trunks himself thought he might be strong enough to fight the androids of his time, but Bulma warned him against it. Since these androids were nothing like 'the rumors' as Vegeta put it, the impression all this gives me is not that 19>Trunks. Its' exactly the opposite.
Why would Vegeta have to say No.19 was stronger than Trunks? That would be the belief going into a statement about his strength, so saying he wasn't "as bad" as the rumors said would only lessen how much of a gap he had on Trunks compared to what he was supposed to have.

When did Trunks say he thought Nos.19 and 20 were weaker than the ones he knew? All I'm seeing is him comparing his future androids to the ones in the present timeline, not including 19 and 20.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 357 (DBZ 163), P4.3
Trunks: “…But somehow I ended up coming to a past slightly different than the one I know…The timing of Goku’s heart disease was different, there are 3 androids, and their strength is greater too…”
When Trunks and the Z-Fighters are about to go look for Dr. Gero, Vegeta says they should just take on the androids themselves. Trunks then tells him he is underestimating 17 and 18 and fighting them without Goku would be futile. This was after Piccolo and Vegeta had beaten 19 and 20, but before Trunks knew the present androids were stronger. Thus, Trunks thinks future androids 17 and 18 are a lot stronger than 19 and 20. And since he could fight fairly evenly with future 17 and 18, he should be stronger than 19 or 20.
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+ Kyouks
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When we say "19 > Trunks," we're referring to Trunks' level of power when he killed Freeza, not after three years.
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Kyouka Suigetsu
Aug 12 2013, 12:10 AM
When we say "19 > Trunks," we're referring to Trunks' level of power when he killed Freeza, not after three years.
In all likelihood Future Trunks came to the future, saw it wasn't changed, then set his dial three years ahead of the previous trip after a bit a went back. I don't think he waited three years in his own time before traveling back. I don't think his power changed between those instances.
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

He went from being under Post-Yardrat Goku to near Android Saga healthy Goku

That's quite a jump in power, even if you believe in minimal gains
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Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 12:19 AM
Kyouka Suigetsu
Aug 12 2013, 12:10 AM
When we say "19 > Trunks," we're referring to Trunks' level of power when he killed Freeza, not after three years.
In all likelihood Future Trunks came to the future, saw it wasn't changed, then set his dial three years ahead of the previous trip after a bit a went back. I don't think he waited three years in his own time before traveling back. I don't think his power changed between those instances.
He went from being absolutely no match for the androids to fighting "fairly well" against them, and was grouped together with Goku and Vegeta on more than one occasion. His power definitely increased, whether it would be logical to us or not.
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Demon Flame
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Quote:
 
He went from being under Post-Yardrat Goku to near Android Saga healthy Goku

That's quite a jump in power, even if you believe in minimal gains

Trunks was not very close to Goku after the three years. He got one-shotted by the androids while at least Vegeta put up a fight. Vegeta also called his SSJ form weak at Gero's cave. I think he was the same strength and that the gap between him and Goku increased dramatically due to their difference in training. Is there any proof Trunks trained between his two trips?

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He went from being absolutely no match for the androids to fighting "fairly well" against them, and was grouped together with Goku and Vegeta on more than one occasion. His power definitely increased, whether it would be logical to us or not.

That is just wrong. Before he left for the past he thought he could fight the androids himself and possibly win, but Bulma thought he was exaggerating. Then he comes to the future a second time and says he can fight them "fairly well" which is totally consistent with his conversation with Bulma. As far as your dismissal of logic that is just designed to dissuade us from thinking. The premise you were using is that Trunks trained three years. Given he is a time traveler that is not valid. He must have went to the future, saw it hadn't changed, then decided to go back, but three years later, to lend a helping hand against the androids. During this time the gap between him and Goku widened, and Vegeta also went from being weaker than him to being way stronger. So no, Trunks was not stronger, and yes, he was on par with 19 when he fought Frieza and King Cold. I have ten kinds of evidence oozing from every pore.
Edited by Demon Flame, Aug 12 2013, 12:43 AM.
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Demon Flame
Aug 12 2013, 12:37 AM
Trunks was not very close to Goku after the three years. He got one-shotted by the androids while at least Vegeta put up a fight. Vegeta also called his SSJ form weak at Gero's cave. I think he was the same strength and that the gap between him and Goku increased dramatically due to their difference in training. Is there any proof Trunks trained between his two trips?
There is nothing outright stating he trained, unless you consider the general consensus that everybody was going to train for the battle. There isn't anything outright stating any of the humans trained either.

What we do have are implications and statements that put Trunks in the same league as Goku and Vegeta. Your comment that he was one-shotted by the androids is a bit off, as he was hit from behind by No.17 yet still got up to attack No.18, and it was only after he'd been tossed into Vegeta that he was down for the count. Vegeta was also put down after a couple attacks when No.18 actually got serious against him.

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2
Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18
Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with basically one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”

Chapter: 356 (DBZ 162), P3.1
God: “Things turned out this way against the androids…Even for that ‘Trunks’ boy who came from the future and instantly obliterated Freeza and his father…and even for Vegeta, whose abilities are even greater than Trunks…”


There would also be Trunks following Vegeta to find the androids. Vegeta turned Super Saiyan to lose him and was unable to.

Then there are Trunks's statements themselves portraying a jump in his ability to fend off the androids.

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Context: Trunks compares No.17 and No.18 in his timeline to the ones in the present
Trunks: “They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”
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