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| Splitting Majin Buu. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 4 2013, 04:10 PM (2,096 Views) | |
| Shirlatin | Aug 4 2013, 04:10 PM Post #1 |
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If you was to give the original Majin Buu (Kid Buu having never been altered) a power level of 100 (to make this a lot easier) how would you distribute his power in all of his forms before he starts taking Gotenks, Piccolo and Gohan? How I would do it is something like this: Majin Buu: 100 South Kai Buu: 95 Fat Buu: 80 -- Daikaioshin was said to have a larger effect on him and his power. Good Buu: 40 Evil Buu: 60 Super Buu: 90 Kid Buu: 100 My reasons:- Obviously having a "Good Buu" not only affects Buu's temperament, but it also affects his power, as we know he was said to have been weakened after each Kaioshin he absorbed, with Daikaioshin having the most profound affect. I'd say Fat Buu is still dipping into evil power, but not all, and he's about 40% childish and playful, just not knowing any better. This means at least 1/5 of his power has been cut off completely and the remaining 80% is in two halvs. When Hercule informs him of his wrong doings, he's easy to change his ways. When the conflict occurs and Evil Buu is released, if Fat Buu's power is cut in half, that gives Good Buu the 40% of good and all the evil is no longer restricted. So Evil Buu has the full 60%. This would nicely explain the power gap between Good and Evil Buu. When Evil Buu swallows Good Buu, the pronounced goodness is obviously restrained compared to how it was, but there is still that goodness inside him nonetheless. Given his actions from what we see of him, I'd say Super Buu is barely held back by the goodness, but he still must be slightly, or he'd be as reckless and insane as Kid Buu. Not to mention how he is toward Mr. Satan and even Videl at one point. So I'd say he's only 10% restrained. Giving him 90% of his full power, the other 10% locked away and still having a slight affect. Obviously when all is said and done Majin "Kid" Buu is back to his original state and I'd say it was the most powerful of the Buus before Gotenks etcetera. Would you guys agree or disagree with me? How would you split the Buu's power either via my method or your own? I'd like to hear opinions. Post script: - Though this was a topic about Buu, whilst writing I couldn't help also wondering where you guys would place SSJ3 Goku and Gotenks and "Mystic" Gohan based against Buu? Goku obviously is stronger than Fat Buu and appears to be as strong, if not abit stronger than Kid Buu, but his power drops while Buu's does not, meaning he's also stronger than Super Buu. So I'd say atleast 100 - 110 for SSJ3 Goku. SSJ3 Gotenks seems to have been on par with, if not abit weaker than, Super Buu, seeings as Super Buu claimed to have been waiting for Gohan, and neither Gotenks or Super Buu really got anywhere. So I'd put Gotenks at 85 - 90. But how would we judge "Mystic" Gohan based on this scale? Both he and SSJ3 Goku didn't match up to Buutenks w/Piccolo, with Gohan actually fighting and losing while it being pretty much implied SSJ3 Goku wouldn't win. But both he and Goku can beat Super Buu for sure. Most seem to agree Gohan to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku, but their feats seem to put them in the same league atleast. So Gohan must be 100 - let's say 120. Could be more, could be less. Post post script: - There isn't one. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 4 2013, 04:31 PM Post #2 |
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I completely disagree with a few things in your dissertation. For one, Evil Boo being weaker than Pure Boo is incorrect. There is simply far too much evidence against this, a lot of which you can find here and here, with a bit here as well. I'll lay out the main points, though. - Pure Boo absorbed South Kaioshin, which powered him up and turned him into Buff Boo. We know by statements that Buff Boo is stronger than regular Evil Boo but weaker than Gotenks-Boo. - He then absorbed Dai Kaioshin, which weakened him and turned him into Fat Boo. We know by statements that Fat Boo is weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. - Goku stated he wanted no part of Evil Boo, regardless of Vegeta being there to help him or not. It was stated that he could defeat Pure Boo if given the chance. Next, Goku being able to beat Evil Boo is entirely contradictory to what was laid out in the manga, which you'll see if you read those links above. Then lastly, while the gap is factually unknown between Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Fantastic Gohan, we know by the power of Gotenks that it has to be a very sizable gap at the very least. That's where fan multipliers come into play. You'll see my personal chain in that first link. tl;dr - Read those links. I implore you. |
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| Shirlatin | Aug 4 2013, 05:02 PM Post #3 |
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Very well written stuff. I especially liked the counter argument section. Put a smile on my face at least. By the time I got to this: - SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Buff Boo > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Pure Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo > Good Boo ~ Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku I really couldn't disagree. Am I right that all that I read about the Kais points to Southern Kai only raising his power, then Daikaio brings it back down and then some. By the time the goodness in Buu is nicely tucked away by Evil Buu (what you call "Pure Evil Boo") he once again had the benefits of Southern Supreme Kai in the form of Super Buu (Evil Boo to you)? Just to be sure I got it alright. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 4 2013, 07:02 PM Post #4 |
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Thanks. Now you're getting it. It's still a mess that I'm not entirely sure of the specifics of, but I do know the basics are pretty easy to figure out. I do have a question for you. What feats were you referring to that put Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Fantastic Gohan in the same league? |
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| Shirlatin | Aug 4 2013, 07:36 PM Post #5 |
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Well that changes given Super Buu being stronger than original form Buu. Given that I placed Super Buu only just under Kid Buu, and "Mystic" Gohan beat the former while SSJ3 Goku more or less matched the latter.. But given what you've just presented me, it puts Gotenks and "Mystic" Gohan above SSJ3 Goku, so the accomplishments are no longer in the same league. I suppose I'm a touch disappointed, but I can't dispute what I've been given just because I favour Goku. Though my reasons for power were never motivated by a like/dislike of certain characters. It's just how I viewed it given that whole "Kais weakening Buu" thing. Edited by Shirlatin, Aug 4 2013, 07:37 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Aug 4 2013, 08:13 PM Post #6 |
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It's understandable, and I'm glad you're being reasonable, unlike a few people in the past who have been quite belligerent. Where did you get the idea that both Kaioshins weakened Boo, might I ask? |
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| Shirlatin | Aug 4 2013, 08:38 PM Post #7 |
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Would I disappoint you if I said the anime? But you must admit, it appears to make sense. Most people would assume all Kais are inherently very good, with Daikaioshin obviously quite exceptionally so. So when you hear it you don't argue these things, unless I suppose you know better. I'm afraid I've never read the manga with a few exceptions of some terribly scanned pages here and there. I don't have the money or the know how to own my own copies either. But I do know the difference between canon and non-canon and filler etcetera. But as you know, it's not filler that 2 Kais were absorbed, so when the show says all Kais had an affect on Buu's power for the "better" it seems so logical how could you not accept it? It just seems to follow logic. |
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| ObsessiveFanBoy | Aug 4 2013, 09:01 PM Post #8 |
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I am Always Right... Unless When I'm Wrong
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Yeah you're better off disregarding the online fan dubbed manga if that's what you've read. The anime is inconsistent and best avoided when debating about DBZ. The manga is the only true cannon since it was drawn and written by Akira Toriyama himself. AT had little to almost no involvement in the production of the anime. So if you wanna bring some discussions or questions you have regarding DB, I recommend you start by referring all quotes and support from the official translated manga. Not the one you see on the Internet. Now on to your post. It was stated by Kibito Kaioshin that Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo when he absorbed him. This means South Kaioshin made him stronger, as seen as how his body grew and became buff. What you're saying is Boo absorbed South Kaioshin and it didn't increase his power but absorbed Dai Kaioshin and decreased his power? Let's think about that for a minute. Why would Boo absorb South Kaioshin and not get a power up if South Kaioshin was stronger than him thus, absorbing him in the first place? More importantly. How would absorbing someone who's stronger than you make you weaker? Logic would tell you absorbing someone stronger than you would make you stronger. This is evidenced by Super Boo absorbing Gohan (who was stronger than him) and became even stronger, to which he even states that he does. And the quote where they say "all Kais had an affect on Buu's power for the "better"" refers to Boo absorbing Dai Kaioshin, since Dai Kaioshin's gentle nature made him gentle and weaker. |
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| Shirlatin | Aug 4 2013, 09:15 PM Post #9 |
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Well I think it seems evident Buu only absorbs when he is outmatched. Therefore Daikaioshin was most likely stronger than Buff Buu, yet he had a reverse effect on Buu. It quelled his power and it's said so (as far as I know) because of the Daikaioshins high amount of goodness. It stands to reason (unless stated otherwise -- as it seems to be) that the South Kai also has a large amount of goodness, being a Kai, so one could easily come to the conclusion that South Kai also had a similar effect on Buu as that of the Daikaio, though just not as much. Especially when my only real experience to the DBZ practically says as much (Funimation dub.) Either way, you needn't worry. OffensiveFanGuy (I kid) has shown me the errors of my wayward ways. |
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| ObsessiveFanBoy | Aug 4 2013, 09:20 PM Post #10 |
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I am Always Right... Unless When I'm Wrong
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I think what happened there is that when Boo absorbed Dai Kaioshin, he did so because since South Kaioshin made him stronger, he assumed Dai Kaioshin would do the same thing. But that's fine. I'm glad OFG explained it to you. Edited by ObsessiveFanBoy, Aug 4 2013, 09:20 PM.
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| NavonWise | Aug 5 2013, 02:45 AM Post #11 |
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You can only go so far watching the anime, but it's probably worse checking out the fansubs lol horrible. |
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| Demon Flame | Aug 5 2013, 05:36 AM Post #12 |
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Let us not go too far in dismissing the anime. It is not true that AT had nothing to do with it. Many, many anime only characters were created and designed by his own hands and the filler sagas were based on content he himself wished to include. Bardock and Grand Kai are two examples of characters introduced in the anime only to be later referenced in the manga. AT actually used the anime filler to elaborate and explore the manga universe, and tell stories he would have liked to include but didn't have time. He was involved to a much greater extent than most people think, and we ought not to dismiss things simply because they were filler. However they should be looked at more skeptically because they may or may not have come from AT. Judging by feats, Super Buu is above Kid Buu. Goku was stronger than Kid Buu but blanched at the idea of fighting Super Buu. The only reason people say KB is stronger is because when he was changing, the characters said his ki increased. But surely this character statement cannot take precedence over all the other ones. Even if Super Buu was weaker, he had a brain while KB had none so maybe he was a better fighter overall. Edited by Demon Flame, Aug 5 2013, 05:36 AM.
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| NavonWise | Aug 5 2013, 05:49 AM Post #13 |
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Anything in the anime that conflicts with the manga should be dismissed. Some filler episodes, if not all of them portrayed Gohan as someone who loved fighting; I'm not quite fond of that because we know from the original source, the manga, that Gohan hated fighting and only did all these things because he felt he had to do it. He never went to Namek for an adventure, he went to Namek because he felt it was somewhat his fault for letting Piccolo die and he wanted to help out with reviving all his friends back. These episodes with Gohan sneaking out and training messed up his true character big time. |
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| Demon Flame | Aug 5 2013, 05:57 AM Post #14 |
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Yes, we should reject clearly contrary scenes. However we should be willing to consider scenes that do not contradict but just expand the original. Not that they should be held to the same level as the manga but I think in cases where the manga is ambiguous, there is no harm in going to the anime for guidance. Also I would like to add, choosing the manga as a basis is just personal choice. We could explicitly declare we are talking about the anime, and in that case we would have to toss out any manga scenes that contradict it. Canon is relative to what people are interested in discussing. A lot of people use AT's interviews as canon even though you could make the case that they should be secondary to the manga. |
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| + Pyrus | Aug 5 2013, 06:40 AM Post #15 |
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I wouldn't use the anime for guidance in anything except the anime, unless it was proven that Toriyama had a hand in whichever filler scene was in question. |
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