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SSJ Multipliers; Here we are again
Topic Started: Jul 26 2013, 05:47 PM (2,775 Views)
Super Vegetto
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Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 06:52 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 03:49 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 01:11 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
Can you explain how do we know that SSJ2 being 2x SSJ is wrong ?



If Ssj2 were 2x Ssj battle power, then at one point against SPC, Ssj2 Gohan would be weaker than his Ssj self, and nothing at all even dares to imply such a PoV.

It seems absolutely clear, to me, from manga and SEG, that Ssj2 is not 2x Ssj battle power.
You obviously forgot that SPC powered up like Gohan.

So that doesn't put them at equal power level when Gohan get to 50% of his power.

Well there he was pretty weak but still in body that can use much more power than SSJ (or his 50% at that moment).

In the end he used 100% of his power in one burst so again nothing realy contradicts him beating Cell with 50% of his power (or SSJ power)...

Spoiler: click to toggle
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:21 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 06:52 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 03:49 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 01:11 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
Can you explain how do we know that SSJ2 being 2x SSJ is wrong ?



If Ssj2 were 2x Ssj battle power, then at one point against SPC, Ssj2 Gohan would be weaker than his Ssj self, and nothing at all even dares to imply such a PoV.

It seems absolutely clear, to me, from manga and SEG, that Ssj2 is not 2x Ssj battle power.
You obviously forgot that SPC powered up like Gohan.

So that doesn't put them at equal power level when Gohan get to 50% of his power.

Well there he was pretty weak but still in body that can use much more power than SSJ (or his 50% at that moment).

In the end he used 100% of his power in one burst so again nothing realy contradicts him beating Cell with 50% of his power (or SSJ power)...



No, I didn't forget that, and also SPC has nothing to do with this argument.
I'll try to be more clear: if damaged Ssj2 Gohan is 50% (or less) of his Ssj2 full power, and if Ssj2 is 2x Ssj battle power, then damaged Ssj2 Gohan is equal to Ssj Gohan (or weaker), which is clearly false, as nothing remotely tires to suggest it.

That's why Ssj2 being 2x Ssj battle power doesn't work, and indeed it isn't what the SEG says.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Gohan's battle power in SSj2 is in directly tied into not only his physical condition, but how pissed he is. And his biggest obstacle to overcome during this time was not his injury, but his confidence in his abilities.

He was ready to throw in the towel until Goku stepped in and started rooting for him.
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Super Vegetto
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Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 07:30 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:21 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 06:52 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 03:49 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 01:11 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
Can you explain how do we know that SSJ2 being 2x SSJ is wrong ?



If Ssj2 were 2x Ssj battle power, then at one point against SPC, Ssj2 Gohan would be weaker than his Ssj self, and nothing at all even dares to imply such a PoV.

It seems absolutely clear, to me, from manga and SEG, that Ssj2 is not 2x Ssj battle power.
You obviously forgot that SPC powered up like Gohan.

So that doesn't put them at equal power level when Gohan get to 50% of his power.

Well there he was pretty weak but still in body that can use much more power than SSJ (or his 50% at that moment).

In the end he used 100% of his power in one burst so again nothing realy contradicts him beating Cell with 50% of his power (or SSJ power)...



No, I didn't forget that, and also SPC has nothing to do with this argument.
I'll try to be more clear: if damaged Ssj2 Gohan is 50% (or less) of his Ssj2 full power, and if Ssj2 is 2x Ssj battle power, then damaged Ssj2 Gohan is equal to Ssj Gohan (or weaker), which is clearly false, as nothing remotely tires to suggest it.

That's why Ssj2 being 2x Ssj battle power doesn't work, and indeed it isn't what the SEG says.
He defeated SPC with unleashing his full power (100%), not with 50%...
Spoiler: click to toggle
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

KetchupRevenge
Jul 27 2013, 07:34 PM
Gohan's battle power in SSj2 is in directly tied into not only his physical condition, but how pissed he is. And his biggest obstacle to overcome during this time was not his injury, but his confidence in his abilities.

He was ready to throw in the towel until Goku stepped in and started rooting for him.


That's surely true, but it doesn't mean he was weaker than his Ssj form at that time.

Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:37 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 07:30 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:21 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 06:52 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 03:49 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 01:11 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
Can you explain how do we know that SSJ2 being 2x SSJ is wrong ?



If Ssj2 were 2x Ssj battle power, then at one point against SPC, Ssj2 Gohan would be weaker than his Ssj self, and nothing at all even dares to imply such a PoV.

It seems absolutely clear, to me, from manga and SEG, that Ssj2 is not 2x Ssj battle power.
You obviously forgot that SPC powered up like Gohan.

So that doesn't put them at equal power level when Gohan get to 50% of his power.

Well there he was pretty weak but still in body that can use much more power than SSJ (or his 50% at that moment).

In the end he used 100% of his power in one burst so again nothing realy contradicts him beating Cell with 50% of his power (or SSJ power)...



No, I didn't forget that, and also SPC has nothing to do with this argument.
I'll try to be more clear: if damaged Ssj2 Gohan is 50% (or less) of his Ssj2 full power, and if Ssj2 is 2x Ssj battle power, then damaged Ssj2 Gohan is equal to Ssj Gohan (or weaker), which is clearly false, as nothing remotely tires to suggest it.

That's why Ssj2 being 2x Ssj battle power doesn't work, and indeed it isn't what the SEG says.
He defeated SPC with unleashing his full power (100%), not with 50%...


True, but to believe damaged Ssj2 Gohan (before finishing Cell off) to be equal to Ssj Gohan, we'd need at least one statement from someone, but nobody said anything about this.
If Gohan became so weak, someone would have noticed and told us.
Edited by Sjk8, Jul 27 2013, 07:43 PM.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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Super Vegetto
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Well yea i see what you mean and i don't realy have problem with that.

In the end it's realy hard to accept that Gohan was at his SSJ level with 50% of his SSJ2 strenght...
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:45 PM
Well yea i see what you mean and i don't realy have problem with that.

In the end it's realy hard to accept that Gohan was at his SSJ level with 50% of his SSJ2 strenght...


Exactly, and usually people tend to believe this because of the SEG; but my point is: the SEG never talked about BP for Ssj2 and Ssj3, so there's no reason for believing in such small multipliers.
It doesn't make sense for the Ssj2 and Ssj3 multipliers to be, combined (8x) smaller than the Ssj multiplier alone (even if it was 10x).
The SEG never implied such a thing.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:37 PM
He defeated SPC with unleashing his full power (100%), not with 50%...
I agree, but it was his 100% in an injured state, not his healthy state. He's obviously stronger when not injured.

Just to throw numbers around, his maximum injured Kamehameha could only be as strong as his 75% while healthy. This is also where ki concentration comes in, that I've been discussing with you on the other thread. Gohan physically could've only been 50% his physical power after his injury, but his ability to concentrate his ki comes into play if he really wants to get the edge. He can take the 50% ki that he does have, but concentrate it to by 90% his PL at 100%.
In other words:

Injured Gohan: 60
Healthy Gohan: 120
Injured Gohan Kamehameha (because of concentrating ki): 110
Healthy Gohan Kamehameha (concentrating again): 300
Super Cell: 120
Super Cell Kamehameha: 200

A person's over-all power more depends on their ability to concentrate their ki, not their actual ki amount.
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Super Vegetto
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KetchupRevenge
Jul 27 2013, 07:56 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:37 PM
He defeated SPC with unleashing his full power (100%), not with 50%...
I agree, but it was his 100% in an injured state, not his healthy state. He's obviously stronger when not injured.

Just to throw numbers around, his maximum injured Kamehameha could only be as strong as his 75% while healthy. This is also where ki concentration comes in, that I've been discussing with you on the other thread. Gohan physically could've only been 50% his physical power after his injury, but his ability to concentrate his ki comes into play if he really wants to get the edge. He can take the 50% ki that he does have, but concentrate it to by 90% his PL at 100%.
In other words:

Injured Gohan: 60
Healthy Gohan: 120
Injured Gohan Kamehameha (because of concentrating ki): 110
Healthy Gohan Kamehameha (concentrating again): 300
Super Cell: 120
Super Cell Kamehameha: 200

A person's over-all power more depends on their ability to concentrate their ki, not their actual ki amount.
He used his full power to defeat Cell.

Goku knew that Gohan has more power inside and that Gohan is holding back for sake of not destroying the Earth, so everything before Gohan finished Cell was not used with full power...




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Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 07:42 PM
KetchupRevenge
Jul 27 2013, 07:34 PM
Gohan's battle power in SSj2 is in directly tied into not only his physical condition, but how pissed he is. And his biggest obstacle to overcome during this time was not his injury, but his confidence in his abilities.

He was ready to throw in the towel until Goku stepped in and started rooting for him.


That's surely true, but it doesn't mean he was weaker than his Ssj form at that time.

Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:37 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 07:30 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 07:21 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 06:52 PM
Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 03:49 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 01:11 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
Can you explain how do we know that SSJ2 being 2x SSJ is wrong ?



If Ssj2 were 2x Ssj battle power, then at one point against SPC, Ssj2 Gohan would be weaker than his Ssj self, and nothing at all even dares to imply such a PoV.

It seems absolutely clear, to me, from manga and SEG, that Ssj2 is not 2x Ssj battle power.
You obviously forgot that SPC powered up like Gohan.

So that doesn't put them at equal power level when Gohan get to 50% of his power.

Well there he was pretty weak but still in body that can use much more power than SSJ (or his 50% at that moment).

In the end he used 100% of his power in one burst so again nothing realy contradicts him beating Cell with 50% of his power (or SSJ power)...



No, I didn't forget that, and also SPC has nothing to do with this argument.
I'll try to be more clear: if damaged Ssj2 Gohan is 50% (or less) of his Ssj2 full power, and if Ssj2 is 2x Ssj battle power, then damaged Ssj2 Gohan is equal to Ssj Gohan (or weaker), which is clearly false, as nothing remotely tires to suggest it.

That's why Ssj2 being 2x Ssj battle power doesn't work, and indeed it isn't what the SEG says.
He defeated SPC with unleashing his full power (100%), not with 50%...


True, but to believe damaged Ssj2 Gohan (before finishing Cell off) to be equal to Ssj Gohan, we'd need at least one statement from someone, but nobody said anything about this.
If Gohan became so weak, someone would have noticed and told us.
Piccolo said Gohan's ki had seriously dropped, if that's what you're referring to.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Yes, since Gohan was below his Ssj2 full power.
But no one stated: "Now Gohan is even weaker than he was before as a Ssj".

Manga and SEG are against the "2x battle power" misunderstanding, that's my point.
A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has even a chance to get its pants on
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FamousBueller
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Super Asian

what if half of his power ment half of ssj2?

ssj: 100
ssj2: 200
- 50% of ssj powr would be 150

can that be considered?
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Super Vegetto
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FamousBueller
Jul 27 2013, 11:00 PM
what if half of his power ment half of ssj2?

ssj: 100
ssj2: 200
- 50% of ssj powr would be 150

can that be considered?
50% of SSJ2 would be 100 not 150 if his power is in SSJ2 200...
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Captain Oblivious

Yeah that just sounds like unnecessary maths to me. I just keep the multiplier higher than 2x.
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FamousBueller
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Super Asian

Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 11:05 PM
FamousBueller
Jul 27 2013, 11:00 PM
what if half of his power ment half of ssj2?

ssj: 100
ssj2: 200
- 50% of ssj powr would be 150

can that be considered?
50% of SSJ2 would be 100 not 150 if his power is in SSJ2 200...
No that's not what im saying if Ssj2 is 2x ssj and ssj was only 100 that means ssj2 is 100+

Ssj: 100
Ssj2: 100

so him losing half of his "ssj2" power would be 50

Ssj: 100+50 = 150

but I know that's not what is really going on, im just stated a different look at the super saiyan levels/powers
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