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SSJ Multipliers; Here we are again
Topic Started: Jul 26 2013, 05:47 PM (2,776 Views)
+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Coolest
Jul 26 2013, 11:56 PM
I don't believe in set multipliers because that's a fan made concept. It isn't canon. Akira Toriyama made people as strong as the plot required, no more no less.
Refer to SSjinGoku001's earlier post in this thread.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Saying it can't be calculated is flawed, it was clearly able to be calculated in the Freeza arc, give or take a few outliers because we were actually able to utilize different points in the manga to come to a conclusion. We knew the stomping gap was about 1.2x-1.3x. We knew that Freeza was only using 50% of his power. We knew that Goku's KHH 20 was still nothing to Freeza.

It was easy enough to just go:

Freeza 50%: 50

Freeza: 100% 100

Base Goku: 2

KK20 Goku: 40

SSJ Goku: 100ish

Again, taking into account outliers and stuff, whether you think KK20 Goku was closer to 50% Freeza and stuff, you can see how you can actually get a number. You can see based on the data we've had before how you can get close to a 50x multiplier.

The problem later on we don't have any data to really work with. We don't have a line saying what percentage one character is at like we had with Goku and Freeza. It's just "I'm strong..." or "Holy snap I can't hit him..." and we can only take guesses an try to use the best of the data we had before to make conclusions.



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ObsessiveFanBoy
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I am Always Right... Unless When I'm Wrong

If SSJ really were treated as multipliers, this is what I have in mind.

SSJ (50x your base PL)

SSJ2 (7 x your SSJ PL)

SSJ3 (4 x your SSJ2 PL)

I don't agree with SSJ2 being 2x SSJ.
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+ miguelnuva
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SSJ: 50x base or 10x base

ASSJ: 2x SSJ or 1.5x SSJ

USSJ: 3x SSJ or 2.5x SSJ

LSSJ: 4x SSJ or 3x SSJ

SSJ2: 5x SSJ or 4x SSJ

SSJ3: 45x SSJ2 or 9x SSJ2.

That's What I run with.
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Professor Gohan
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No multipliers? What??
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Coolest
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I'm sorry, I don't care what quotes or interviews anyone links, you are just twisting Toriyama's words to fit into your own idea that he is ALL about dem multipliers and power levels. He isn't, and if you truly believe that, you have no idea what the spirit of Dragonball really is. It isn't just a fighting manga. It has a story.

Just because Toriyama said literally ONE TIME that SSJ is 10x that of base, for GOKU, that doesn't mean there is this list that he had planned out of power levels and multipliers and attack multipliers etc. That just isn't the kind of person Akira is. Read his other manga if you don't believe me.
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+ Pyrus
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Multipliers and power levels and all that jazz are way too limiting.

"Ok, Santa is at 500,000,000 and Huckleberry is at 525,000,000...wait, that attack Santa did was stronger than his last special attack which had a multiplier of 3.5x, but that doesn't make sense with my numbers here...and then he lost 40% of his power from being stuck in a coma for 4 years, but that wouldn't allow me to have him at least 20% above Mrs. Claus and still be at most 60% of Rudolf's power who's only 90% of Frosty and with a special attack he still shouldn't be stronger and...ARGH f*** THIS."

It's incredibly easy to write with a "go with the flow" mindset in Shonen-type narratives. Worrying about specific multipliers and power gap percentages puts a limitation on imagination and fun. So what if some fan thinks the gap between Santa and Frosty should only be 30% based on some random numbers I wrote down in my early concept notes? I didn't do the math when I actually wrote that stuff, so for all I know it could be a 2% gap or a 10,000% gap. I don't care about gaps as long as the fight is fun to write and read.
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SurRealistic
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Jonny Rivers

ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 26 2013, 05:58 PM
Does a "no set multiplier" approach count?
"No multiplier" is fine with me if you go with that but I wasnt asking if there are multipliers or not. I go with multipliers and I was asking other people who do what their multipliers were.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

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Jul 27 2013, 03:08 AM
If SSJ really were treated as multipliers, this is what I have in mind.

SSJ (50x your base PL)

SSJ2 (7 x your SSJ PL)

SSJ3 (4 x your SSJ2 PL)

I don't agree with SSJ2 being 2x SSJ.


Indeed it has been never stated, nowhere.
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Goddess Ultimecia
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Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.
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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
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Zenet
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SSJ x46733322 of base

SSJ2 x5007 of SSJ

SSJ3 x infinite of SSJ2

I have a theory that SSJ3 (anime version) has infinite power that keeps rising to no end which is why Goku was so stronger than Boohan when fighting Kid Boo.
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Also something to consider is that it doesn't make sense for having a multiplier considering that (in essence) the only way to increase your SSj power would be to train in base (chain reaction would occur), but we almost always see Super Saiyans use Super Saiyan to train. This suggests that Super Saiyan itself has an independent power scale. In other words, it doesn't matter how strong you get in base, your increases in Super Saiyan are not related to your increases in base. Think of this as two separate bodies.

Just because Goku's initial transformation was suggested to be 50x his base doesn't mean that everyone is like that. The Super Saiyan is said to draw from hidden ki, and everyone has a different amount of hidden ki. The only logical conclusion would be that, even though the general idea of Super Saiyan is to increase, the Super Saiyan increase is as individual as the Saiyan themselves.
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Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 01:11 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
Can you explain how do we know that SSJ2 being 2x SSJ is wrong ?

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Sjk8
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史上最強の孫悟空

Super Vegetto
Jul 27 2013, 03:49 PM
Sjk8
Jul 27 2013, 01:11 PM
TConnor_Demonic
Jul 27 2013, 11:27 AM
Well i believe the SEG has SSJ2 being 2x although that's hard to work with.


And that is where the conversation gets interesting. ;)
That's what the SEG exactly says:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"


You can see that it specifically talks about battle power only in reference to the Ssj transformation, while for Ssj2 and Ssj3 nothing talks about battle power.
So, the famous "Ssj2 = 2x Ssj and Ssj3 = 4x Ssj2" line, which is usually used by people, is wrong and is not what the SEG really says: indeed, people misunderstand the guide's words, since nothing is stated about Ssj2 and Ssj3 battle powers.
Also, we know that Ssj2 being 2x Ssj in battle power is wrong also thanks to the manga itself, as shown during the CG.
Can you explain how do we know that SSJ2 being 2x SSJ is wrong ?



If Ssj2 were 2x Ssj battle power, then at one point against SPC, Ssj2 Gohan would be weaker than his Ssj self, and nothing at all even dares to imply such a PoV.

It seems absolutely clear, to me, from manga and SEG, that Ssj2 is not 2x Ssj battle power.
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