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SSJ Gotenks (Post-ROSAT) Vs SSJ Gogeta
Topic Started: Jul 25 2013, 02:26 PM (6,751 Views)
+ Pyrus Jul 26 2013, 04:02 AM Post #136
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Brofist
Jul 26 2013, 03:50 AM
Hey, you believe SSJ Gogeta>SSJ Gotenks (Post) due to Goku's statement correct?

Then, by that logic your numbers should match up to your belief. You should either:

A.) Have a significantly large difference between Goten and Gohan or Vegeta and Trunks ether one works to be honest.

or

B.) Have at least a significantly larger fusion boost for Gogeta than Gotenks, whatever that might be to the point where it would still surpass Gotenks even after his gains in the ROSAT.

And I'd also like to hear your reasoning behind them as well.
I added numbers for your benefit.

If I had to go with one of those options, I'd go with the second. It wouldn't contradict Gogeta/Gokhan > Gotenks-Boo, Gogeta/Gokhan > Fat Boo, SSj Gotenks (pre) > Fat Boo, Base Gotenks (post) > SSj Gotenks (pre), or anything else.

It'd be going by exactly what the story told me. However Gogeta/Gokhan ends up as powerful as he does is irrelevant to me, honestly. I don't care. That's how strong he was said to be, and that's how he lines up in comparison to post-RoSaT/pre-RoSaT Gotenks.

We could sit and try to figure out how Gotenks got so much stronger in the RoSaT while the boys didn't, but all we'd be doing is making an assumption based on the statements we were given. It's no different here. I'm not going to deny Gogeta/Gokhan's strength because it doesn't abide by a workable formula that I made up, or by a 10x/50x multiplier that AT clearly didn't care about during that saga (3.75x Super Saiyan multiplier for Goku against Yakon is a clear sign, even if you argue Goku was suppressed).

If AT had Goku say a hypothetical fusion dance Gokhan would be "ten-and-a-half times stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks for sure!!", I wouldn't reject his statement based on not being able to work it into my power level list or finding a logical reason for that being the way it would be.

I hope most of that made sense.
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EMIYA Jul 26 2013, 04:17 AM Post #137
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 I can say I'd be more willing to believe that Gogeta has a bigger amp to his fusion than Gotenks than the first option. I'm pretty sure even you don't have a 10x or something gap between Goten and Goku or Vegeta and Trunks.

The other question though would be, why exactly does Gogeta have such a large amp to his fusion when compared to Gotenks. I can accept the idea that in an overall sense due to being composed of two stronger individuals, the fusion might end up being stronger, but it seems very forced and unlikely that it would be at such a level.

You would literally have to have the fusion for Gogeta over 10x stronger than the fusion for Gotenks. Because well, I'll just use some numbers again.

Base Gotenks: 10

Base Gogeta: 100

SSJ Gotenks: 100

SSJ Gogeta: 1,000

Base Gotenks (Post): 100

SSJ Gotenks (Post): 1,000

For here, to make Gogeta stronger, he's initially got to be at least over 10x stronger than Gotenks, otherwise he's going to either end up rivaling or being weaker than Gotenks. Again I also used a 10x SSJ multiplier as I think you use that as well.

So we've got to figure out, how does the fusion for Gogeta end up being so much more powerful than Gotenks? We might look at it in three ways, if you've got another or one to make a remark about one of the three, do say so.

1.) The fusion is based off the individuals and thus because Goku and Vegeta have larger increases over their sons, their fusion ends up with a higher amp to it. The problem with this is that it wouldn't be enough with the numbers we use. Going by natural ki alone, we just don't get Gogeta over 10x stronger than Gotenks.

2.) The fusion is somehow based off of hidden potential, but my problem here is that, and you may disagree, Goten and Trunks have more potential than Goku and Vegeta.

3.) Fusion is random and crap and just give srandom increase to whoever regardless of power, hidden potential, etc.
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+ Pyrus Jul 26 2013, 04:30 AM Post #138
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 I think you're just over complicating it. When did we have these problems before? Heh.
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EMIYA Jul 26 2013, 04:37 AM Post #139
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 Because I like many other people originally had Gogeta above Gotenks for the same reasons, mostly because I never actually bothered much with the whole Gogeta thing. When I actually did, I found out that no matter what I did, I could not get Gogeta above Gotenks and definitely below Gotenks Boo. And when I tried to actually re-think the numbers to where Gogeta was above Gotenks Boo, or at least rivaling him, I had to basically make up random stuff that often interfered with how I rationally come to the conclusions of most of my numbers and with nothing to help support it either.
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+ Pyrus Jul 26 2013, 04:52 AM Post #140
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 Well, yeah, but I don't think AT honestly cared about the numbers. He was just telling a story.
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AA500 Jul 26 2013, 05:09 AM Post #141
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I guess we have the answer. Gogeta>Gotenks because plot.
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+ Pyrus Jul 26 2013, 05:20 AM Post #142
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 Yes, literally plot says Gogeta/Gokhan is stronger than Gotenks.
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EMIYA Jul 26 2013, 05:36 AM Post #143
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 But doesn't plot also say that Base Saiyans>Piccolo and I constantly bring it because the majority view seems to be that Piccolo>Base Saiyans. But we don't get that because of the plot. In fact even if we completely ignored Dabura's statement and anything regarding it, it still wouldn't mean Piccolo>Base Saiyans because at no point does the plot indicate that.

Most people come to the conclusion of Piccolo>Base Saiyans or other points due to conjecture. Sometimes they're interesting points and often make sense. Like thinking Dabura and babidi used the kili readers and found out. The problem there is, as I said as reasonable as it sounds, it's conjecture. Nothing about it is in the plot, it's never specified. The most we can go on is that Dabura came out, had the sensing abilities of a god and then for whatever reason much like how Gohan completely forgot about SSJ2, Dabura completely forgot about how to sense.

If we focued on plot and the statements given in the manga.

Either Base Saiyans>Piccolo or Base Saiyans>~<Piccolo and the second one is just completely ignoring Dabura's remark and having practically nothing to work with.
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+ Pyrus Jul 26 2013, 05:42 AM Post #144
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 That's a bunch of baloney.
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Doctor Know Jul 26 2013, 05:43 AM Post #145
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 Plot does show that every character that does not have saiyan blood is useless to the progression of the Buu saga.
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EMIYA Jul 26 2013, 05:46 AM Post #146
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 Baloney? You said it yourself, plot says Gogeta/Gohkan>Gotenks

Well guess what, plot says Base Saiyans>Piccolo.
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+ Pyrus Jul 26 2013, 05:47 AM Post #147
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Brofist
Jul 26 2013, 05:46 AM
Baloney? You said it yourself, plot says Gogeta/Gohkan>Gotenks

Well guess what, plot says Base Saiyans>Piccolo.
I don't like the way you force yourself on me.
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EMIYA Jul 26 2013, 05:51 AM Post #148
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"I am the bone of my sword."

 And I don't like the way you're willing to say "Gogeta>Gotenks due to "plot" but when "Plot" says Base Saiyans>Piccolo you disagree.

So if you're going to say Gogeta>Gotenks due to plot, you're going to say Base Saiyans>Piccolo due to "plot" right?
Edited by EMIYA, Jul 26 2013, 05:52 AM.
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+ Kyouks Jul 26 2013, 05:56 AM Post #149
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 But one can make a case for Piccolo > Saiyans with statements and by attempting to refute opposing statements. As far as I can tell, the case for Gotenks > Gogeta revolves entirely around numbers.
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+ Pyrus Jul 26 2013, 06:00 AM Post #150
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Brofist
Jul 26 2013, 05:51 AM
And I don't like the way you're willing to say " says Gogeta>Gotenks due to "plot" but when "Plot" says Base Saiyans>Piccolo.

So if you're going to say Gogeta>Gotenks due to plot, you're going to say Base Saiyans>Piccolo due to "plot" right?
No, good sir.

Two different situations that are not reliant on each other.
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