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Whats Wrong With Dragonball Z?
Topic Started: Jul 13 2013, 09:56 AM (6,586 Views)
* Stark
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Rock Lobster

ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 14 2013, 07:35 PM
Gifted would be the extraordinary competitors in the first three tournaments we see, like Nam, Chapa-o, even Chi-Chi. Beyond that is just unnatural.
Nam was able to jump higher than clouds. I'd call that beyond unnatural already.
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Nichel
Jul 14 2013, 08:04 PM
ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 14 2013, 07:35 PM
Gifted would be the extraordinary competitors in the first three tournaments we see, like Nam, Chapa-o, even Chi-Chi. Beyond that is just unnatural.
Nam was able to jump higher than clouds. I'd call that beyond unnatural already.
I just wanted there to be some kind of breaking point between guys like Nam and people like Krillin later in the series.
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* Stark
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Rock Lobster

Yeah, you're right. There's characters that are not so exceptional, see Ran Fan and immediatly then guys like Nam who can do jump higher than clouds and paralyze someone for ten days with one shot.
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Alex D. Boss
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Nam , Yajirobe and Chi Chi aren't natural either.

Just gave my 50 cents.
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DragonBallZ1989
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Jul 13 2013, 07:00 PM
Billa
Jul 13 2013, 05:03 PM
@Copy Ninja

Goku boring as character?

That alone sums up DBZ from a Narutards POV. Great Job!
Goku is a great character in Dragon Ball. He fits the show perfectly. He's innocent, naive, goofy, and cute, but in Z he just seems to lose all of that, especially later on. He just becomes a stern, serious, boring guy until the time calls for comic relief of some sort. I will still say that Goku is one of my favorite characters of all time, but he does get more stale and boring as the series progresses.
Goku grew up. When you have adult-like responsibilities to handle (such as taking of your wife and kids), you got to put all of those child-like characteristics aside.

Personally though, other than him becoming an adult, I didn't see much of a change in Goku's personality.
Edited by DragonBallZ1989, Jul 25 2013, 03:35 AM.
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NavonWise
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So is this about what's wrong with the anime or manga?

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And then there are the many villains who only start off in their "weak" forms to play around then eventually decide to be serious when Goku starts kicking their a***.
Really? Who are these "many" villains who start off in their "weak" form or state? Frieza could be one, Cell, ehh...but that'll only be two villains. I don't recall any other villain in the Dragon Ball series that has done this.
Edited by NavonWise, Jul 25 2013, 05:08 AM.
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DragonBallZ1989
Jul 25 2013, 03:32 AM
ObsessiveFanGirl
Jul 13 2013, 07:00 PM
Billa
Jul 13 2013, 05:03 PM
@Copy Ninja

Goku boring as character?

That alone sums up DBZ from a Narutards POV. Great Job!
Goku is a great character in Dragon Ball. He fits the show perfectly. He's innocent, naive, goofy, and cute, but in Z he just seems to lose all of that, especially later on. He just becomes a stern, serious, boring guy until the time calls for comic relief of some sort. I will still say that Goku is one of my favorite characters of all time, but he does get more stale and boring as the series progresses.
Goku grew up. When you have adult-like responsibilities to handle (such as taking of your wife and kids), you got to put all of those child-like characteristics aside.

Personally though, other than him becoming an adult, I didn't see much of a change in Goku's personality.
Meh. No excuse.
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NavonWise
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Lol that's actually a valid excuse though. He matured, he obviously would not be the same cute chubby little Goku we knew from before.
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SurRealistic
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I agree with the article but I didn't really learn anything new.

Its just a matter of opinion what you like simple or complex. For me DBZ has never been something that I would expect to be very complex and AT stated that he made the series simple on purpose. DBZ is IMO just meant to be fun and exciting and even though it is true that the characters talk too mutch in the anime and the animation has flaws but for 80's and 90's animation this was the most epic anime ever.

I'm glad Goku is a simple character, I dont pitchure him any other way than he is and the fact that he always stays the same makes him unique.

The article is good IMO but the whole "racist" and "sexist" thing is ridiculous, Bulma is the only main female character who never fought in the series.
I mean Videl is a martial artist, #18 is a killer android who BROKE VEGETA'S ARM and Chi Chi is so scary that even Goku is afraid of her.

Even though it has lots of mistakes and flaws, in the end DBZ is one of the best shows ever and the guy who wrote this article shouldnt blame it it for other anime mistakes.
Edited by SurRealistic, Jul 25 2013, 01:14 PM.
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NavonWise
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I agree with one or two things, since I realize he's reflecting more on the anime rather than the manga. For some reason every time some one tends to dislike Dragon Ball, they always reflect on the anime, not the manga. But let me give my opinion on a few of his points:
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The Seemingly Endless Levels of Power

A strong theme in DBZ is the apparent endless levels of power that both the heroes and the villains achieve. It's as if Toriyama couldn't think of a better way to make the conflict more interesting outside of just making everyone get more god-like.

And then there are the many villains who only start off in their "weak" forms to play around then eventually decide to be serious when Goku starts kicking their a***. The dialogue usually goes something like:

"Ah, so you think you've beaten me! But I've actually just been toying with you at only 11% of my true power! Watch in terror as I power up to Super Level Twenty One Alpha!"

Okay, that was a tiny bit of an exaggeration, but it's not far from the truth. One wonders how much shorter the series would be if the bad guys just started out in their most powerful forms and took care of business early.
So having great powers are issues now? "He can destroy a galaxy, that sucks" I'm having trouble trying to understand the issue with having crazy powers like that. And that last bit, well like I said earlier:
NavonWise
 
Really? Who are these "many" villains who start off in their "weak" form or state? Frieza could be one, Cell, ehh...but that'll only be two villains. I don't recall any other villain in the Dragon Ball series that has done this.
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Recycled, Predictable Plot

There's a rather simple formula that encompasses the majority of DBZ story arcs:
1. Bad aliens travel to earth and want to destroy it.
2. Poor earthlings die and/or Earth is destroyed.
3. Our intrepid heroes/illegal alien immigrants fight back and a major character dies/is gravely injured.
4. The heroes fight on and transform to the next level of Super Saiyan-ness…
5. …But only after many episodes, long periods of charging up, much explanation, and hours of floating battles.
6. Bad guy(s) vanquished in grand fashion.
7. The dead good guys are brought back to life via the power of the dragon balls. Yay!
8. Brief period of happiness/celebration
9. Return to Step 1.

Rather disappointing really. Besides the fact that it's awfully frightening to imagine a universe where hyper-powered beings constantly lie in wait to destroy/subjugate the earth, you'd think at some point people would get tired of the whole death and rebirth cycle.

Once again, DBZ was hardly the only animated show that was guilty of this crime of storytelling at the time. But it was so blatantly obvious in DBZ, where other shows at least made an attempt to mix up plots and villains.
...really? I'm shocked that anyone would agree to this. let's see here:
1. Bad aliens travel to earth and want to destroy it.
I don't remember King Piccolo ever wanting to destroy the Earth, I don't remember Raditz wanting to destroy destroy Earth, we could argue Vegeta and Nappa wanted to destroy it, but I'm pretty sure their original plan was to sell it, not completely destroy the planet; until Vegeta got pissed off and you know the whole deal. Frieza was the first one to want to do this. Cell never traveled to Earth, rather, he traveled in time and only decided to destroy Earth when he came back. He pretty much states he didn't care whether Earth was destroyed or not. Buu is not an alien, and wants to destroy everything...yeah...
2. Poor earthlings die and/or Earth is destroyed.
Yeah...once.
3.Our intrepid heroes/illegal alien immigrants fight back and a major character dies/is gravely injured.
Again having trouble understanding how is this a bad thing. So do people not get gravely injured or die in battles?
4. The heroes fight on and transform to the next level of Super Saiyan-ness…
5. …But only after many episodes, long periods of charging up, much explanation, and hours of floating battles.

I can answer number four...this happens twice actually. Goku goes SSJ with Frieza, but we can't say it's recycling, it's never been done. again we see it with Cell, and you can somewhat say it happen with Buu but not entirely the same. SSJ3 came out of no where, it wasn't revealed in the last battle or something. And it wasn't used to kill a major villain. Number five reflects on the anime, I'm not even gonna bother.
6. Bad guy(s) vanquished in grand fashion.
You mean in a epic way? Yeah sure, I mean if you like seeing a villain die or stopped in the most ridiculous way :huh: I don't understand what's the issue here.
7. The dead good guys are brought back to life via the power of the dragon balls. Yay!
I'll give you that one.
8. Brief period of happiness/celebration
Yeah, because this something you wouldn't do after defeating a major villain who almost killed you right? Gotcha..
9. Return to Step 1.
We pretty much established that step 1 is a lie, making this step a lie.
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This is the Show That Never Ends

There's a reason why DBZ is "affectionately" known as Drag-ON Ball Z amongst some of its detractors – the series takes forever to get where it's going. The full DBZ series spans 291 episodes, which might not have been a bad thing if it weren't for the aforementioned animation and plot recycling.

To be fair, there have been reasons presented for this. The most common explanation is that the series was running alongside the manga's storyline, and the anime couldn't jump ahead of the manga as Akira Toriyama was still writing it. But there have been other series that had the same problem and found creative ways around it. The Fullmetal Metal Alchemist anime was produced as the manga was still ongoing, but instead of waiting for the manga to finish (which still hasn't happened) or sticking in filler to buy time they made the effort to come up with a satisfying and entertaining "alternate" ending for the anime.

This is a problem that thankfully hasn't been too common in the anime industry. For the most part, series today run their two to five season course and end nicely. But there are a few DBZ-inspired series that have run far longer than they needed to (One Piece and Naruto come to mind). The drawn out nature of the DBZ storyline is definitely a valid point of complaint.
Oh man complaining about 291 episodes? Lol you really do not want to watch it together with Dragon Ball.
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The Dub

This doesn't have anything to do with the merits of the original series, but it has to be mentioned. The poor quality and over the top nature of the English dubbing in DBZ is something that both devoted fans and virulent enemies of the series can agree upon. This is a rather important thing to take note of since DBZ was very popular and profitable for U.S. companies despite this defect. It sent a message to North American companies that they didn't need to put much effort into dubs in order to make a profit

The voice of Freiza (or Freeza if you prefer) was one of the odder choices. He's supposedly one of the baddest mofos in the universe, but his voice in the FUNimation dub makes him sound like an old lady that's been smoking unfiltered menthol Kools for about two decades. This, combined with Freiza's initial ambiguous features (is that purple lipstick?), made a lot of fans confused about Freiza's gender for a while.

FUNimation was responsible for the DBZ dub, and thankfully their efforts to dub other series have gotten much better. But horrible dubs are STILL a huge problem, and many companies outside of Japan still seem to have the impression that a "passable" adaptation is good enough for them to make a profit. In turn, many potential fans of DBZ and anime in general have been turned off by some quite annoying voice acting that in some cases ruins an otherwise brilliant show. If FUNimation had set the bar high with DBZ's dub, maybe we wouldn't have quite as many dubbing problems in the industry today.
I have no problems agreeing with this lol that old dub was horrible.
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Typical One Dimensional Villains
With the possible exception of Vegeta, most of DBZ's antagonists are rather simple. They're usually extremely powerful and sufficiently cruel, but beyond that…they're pretty boring. Their typical traits include casual disregard for life, a desire to bend everyone and everything to their will, a penchant for underestimating the lead hero, and a love of maniacal laughter.

This is certainly not unique to DBZ; plenty of western and Japanese shows are guilty of it. But few of those shows are considered as amazing as DBZ, those shows are rightfully panned for their lackluster villains. DBZ, however, somehow gets a pass for this rather obvious flaw.
There are no exceptions sir, Vegeta when he was a major villain was pretty much what you described. He changed as time went by? He wasn't the major villain as time went by. That they're boring, that's your opinion, I have no opinions on that.
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Typical Male Anime Protagonist

DBZ portrays a lot of one-dimensional characters, but Son Goku is definitely one of the least complicated heroes in any anime series before or since. Akira Toriyama spent a lot of effort infusing Goku with humor and playfulness, but not too many deep thoughts, moral dilemmas, or personal demons. Goku is portrayed mostly as a big kid really - a big kid with a heart of gold and insane levels of power. This model of a silly superhero has been repeated many times in the anime industry. Maybe it's justified since many believe it's just a "kids" show, but most DBZ fans see it as more than that so the show should be held to higher standards.

Goku has become a very popular lead character, and as such later anime creators have emulated him. This tradition can be seen in the later works that were obviously influenced by Toriyama. Luffy in One Piece has a lot of Goku-like traits; he shares Goku's notable appetite, and he often takes a thorough beating but always finds some hidden reserve of power to save the day in the end. The same could be said with Naruto. Naruto, however, goes a step further on the Goku emulation/homage path by actually physically resembling Goku as a Saiyan (blond spiky hair, blue eyes, orange and blue clothing).

To be fair, both Luffy and Naruto have moments where they shine as complex characters, but at first glance their similarities with Goku surpass the unique elements that these characters bring to the table.
You know it works with Goku because we later on find out....he's an alien? So he's not going to have the same "demons" or "dilemmas" we humans go through? Your acting as if Goku never had troubles making a decision.
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Race and Anime

Okay folks, we're about to get a little controversial here and talk about race. Let's chat about our good friend Mr. Popo, the black-skinned, red-lipped, turban-wearing servant of Kami. Oh my…where to start with this one…

Many, many people have called the character blatantly racist – a leftover of the old offensive Sambo parody that sadly did make its way into Japan. The debate about the offensiveness of characters like Mr. Popo has been going on quietly for a while now. But he's not the only one guilty of this; black, Indian, and Arabic characters in anime and videogames are still subject to various stereotypes but things have gotten much better recently. American licensors are also becoming a bit more aware of the issue; Viz has picked up the habit of "downsizing" Mr. Popo's exaggerated lips in the manga.

The argument has been made that Popo's appearance is just a little artistic license for an imaginary character, or that Japanese animation has a history of exaggerating non-Japanese characters because the Japanese population is not very diverse and they just don't have the kinds of racial sensitivities that the Western world has. And those are all valid points; it's quite probable that Toriyama didn't mean to make a racist joke here.

But does the fact that something isn't supposed to be offensive make it any less so? Does "it's only a joke" or "they don't know any better" absolve all guilt? It's certainly not our place to answer those questions, but we'd like to know what you think.
I won't touch this one.
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Boys Are Better Than Girls

We've all heard the arguments about how women are treated in anime. Yes, the focus of the ire is often the extremely objectifying hentai genre, but regular anime series meant for general consumption are often guilty of portraying women in less than flattering roles as well.

Bulma is the primary female character in the DBZ series. She's a brainy gal, as a scientist at Capsule Corp you might even say she's the smartest character in the main cast. But like most female characters in shonen anime, she takes a backseat to all the male characters. Her intelligence is often downplayed as nothing more than a useful plot device. She spends most of her time fawning over Yamcha or running away or doing something for comic relief.

The girls don't get to do much fighting in DBZ. Chi-Chi is an accomplished martial artist, but her primary role is as Gohan and Goten's doting mother. And when you consider that "chichi" is also a Japanese slang word for "breasts", these things start to really seem quite intentional.

Android 18 spent a bit more time in the spotlight as a capable fighter, but even she is eventually relegated to not much more than mommy duty. Videl is perhaps the most favorable female member of the DBZ cast, but much of her purpose is to provide a side story to develop Gohan. It often seems like the female characters in DBZ are mainly there to provide love interests for the main male characters, or to birth more male fighting Saiyans to continue the series.
But you do realize that a female was basically responsible for the salvation of the past right? Because if Bulma never build that time machine, then it's literally the end of the world again. I understand this need with having a female to fight, I mean at this point every human was becoming less and less useful in fights so yeah.

I won't bother posting the last one, because I agree.
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JustSaiyan
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Considering this is a forum dedicated to the entire Dragon Ball series one would come to believe that there would actually be some Dragon Ball fans around.
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Ally to good! Nightmare to you!

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Navon brought the thunder in that post. Nice.

This guy's complaints are clearly geared toward the anime, which even though it's mildly entertaining to me today, is plagued with problems. The "Drag-ON Ball Z" thing was a nice quip, though he can't say that about Kai. What is Kai at now - 64 episodes or something? And it's already on the Boo arc now, not even half of what the original anime was.
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ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 26 2013, 12:28 AM
Navon brought the thunder in that post. Nice.

This guy's complaints are clearly geared toward the anime, which even though it's mildly entertaining to me today, is plagued with problems. The "Drag-ON Ball Z" thing was a nice quip, though he can't say that about Kai. What is Kai at now - 64 episodes or something? And it's already on the Boo arc now, not even half of what the original anime was.
98 episodes up to the final episode before the Buu saga.

I think you got 64 episodes from DBGT.
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DBZAOTA482
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The Expositional Battles

I agree with the battles having a lot of pointless chatter but that's mainly an issue created by the anime rather than the manga.

The Seemingly Endless Levels of Power

The only villainys who purposely held back to humor the heroes were the Jizoningen and Cell . Zarbon didn't like transforming because it made him ugly and Freeza couldn't manag e his forms very well.

Recycled, Predictable Plot

1. The Saiyans were the only extra-territorial threats. The heroes brought themselves to Freeza . The Jizoningen and Cell are home-grown threats . Majin Boo has been sealed away on Earth for eons.

2. Only Majin Boo cared about unadulterated mass destruction.

3. It's hard to argue that the Namek Saga is a repeat of the Saiyan Saga , it's hard to argue that the Artificial Human Saga is a repeat of the Freeza Saga, but you can argue that the Boo Saga is a repeat of the Artificial Human Saga (if you pay casual attention to the details ).

I'll refute the other part later.
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Doggo Champion 2k17
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There are flaws, and we should all acknowledge them; however, bashing on something for its flaws is entirely different.
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