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Tien's Shin Kikoho on Cell
Topic Started: Jul 9 2013, 07:43 PM (10,903 Views)
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Commented on as in, "HOLY s*** THATS A POWERFUL f***ING ATTACK!!!111!"?
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IllogicalGlory
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ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 10 2013, 01:18 AM
Commented on as in, "HOLY s*** THATS A POWERFUL f***ING ATTACK!!!111!"?
The only thing that's said is that he'll die if he keeps doing it...

You'd think that if it really gave him the power to surpass #16 and the others that Goku might say something like that, but he didn't. Sure, previous iterations of the kikoho were discussed, but none of those had enough power to affect someone like Nappa. If this one were so incredible, you'd think someone would say "wow, now that's a big improvement on the form" or "holy f*ck, you were the second most powerful being in the universe for a while there."
Edited by IllogicalGlory, Jul 10 2013, 01:24 AM.
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How big do you wager the amp was on the Kikoho when Tenshinhan used it at the tournament?

And the one he used on Nappa?
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IllogicalGlory
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ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 10 2013, 01:26 AM
How big do you wager the amp was on the Kikoho when Tenshinhan used it at the tournament?

And the one he used on Nappa?
I'd guess they'd be around the same: not very big. Tenshinhan's power was already in the high 1,000s during the saiyan arc, and the kikoho didn't even push him up to 2,800.

The one at the tournament? I don't know, probably quite small. I assumed that big amps didn't really exist until Goku used the super kamehameha at the 23rd. Honestly, what it did wasn't even as impressive as Roshi blowing up the mountain, at the very beginning of Dragon Ball.

If you want a number: close to 1.5x during the saiyan arc and the same or lower at the tournament (given that the former killed him while the latter did not)
Edited by IllogicalGlory, Jul 10 2013, 01:34 AM.
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Yea, it's cool how Tien could stop Cell for some time. I mean, Tien was very weak in dbz. As was Yamcha and Krillin. They were all very powerful in DB but sadly, they all become jokes after Z when it became an all Saiyan only party. 
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IllogicalGlory
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I'm also going to have to have an explanation on how the kikoho went from somewhat unremarkable amp to pants-sh*ttingly high amp over the course of three years.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

The Ki Ko Ho against Nappa was clearly much weaker than it normally would've been had Tenshinhan not been well, dying basically considering it uses life force.

The Shin Ki Ko Ho is stated to be far more powerful than the KHH which we would assume to mean the amp given to the Ki Ko Ho is greater than the amp given to the KHH. The KHH was 2.3x during the Saiyan Arc, if the Ki Ko Ho was as strong as its was supposed to be, it would've easily surpassed Gohan's masenko.

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Brofist
Jul 10 2013, 01:45 AM
The Ki Ko Ho against Nappa was clearly much weaker than it normally would've been had Tenshinhan not been well, dying basically considering it uses life force.

The Shin Ki Ko Ho is stated to be far more powerful than the KHH which we would assume to mean the amp given to the Ki Ko Ho is greater than the amp given to the KHH. The KHH was 2.3x during the Saiyan Arc, if the Ki Ko Ho was as strong as its was supposed to be, it would've easily surpassed Gohan's masenko.

The Kikoho is always stronger than the Kamehameha? Permanently, no matter what?
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Is it stated to be?

For me, it seems like this:

Kikoho: Calculated to be enough to take out a single area, without killing the user.
Shin Kikoho: Tenshinhan uses smaller amounts of energy to send out several energy blasts.
Spirit Tri-Beam: Tenshinhan uses all of his life-force to take out an enemy, killing him.
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IllogicalGlory
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Brofist
Jul 10 2013, 01:45 AM
The Ki Ko Ho against Nappa was clearly much weaker than it normally would've been had Tenshinhan not been well, dying basically considering it uses life force.

The Shin Ki Ko Ho is stated to be far more powerful than the KHH which we would assume to mean the amp given to the Ki Ko Ho is greater than the amp given to the KHH. The KHH was 2.3x during the Saiyan Arc, if the Ki Ko Ho was as strong as its was supposed to be, it would've easily surpassed Gohan's masenko.

I can buy that the kikoho's amp is higher than the KHH, but I would remind you that Roshi made that statement about the kikoho before the super kamehameha existed. Goku almost certainly used a super kamehameha against Raditz and not just a regular one.

I would think that the kikoho he used there would be about as good as any, since he gave up all of his life energy to shoot it (which is not the case for the first time he used it), even if it was diminished.

Honestly, I wouldn't count out the possibility of it being lower than the super kamehameha.

Remember the super kamehameha was shown to be insanely powerful too, when it was first introduced.
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EMIYA
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ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 10 2013, 01:52 AM
Brofist
Jul 10 2013, 01:45 AM
The Ki Ko Ho against Nappa was clearly much weaker than it normally would've been had Tenshinhan not been well, dying basically considering it uses life force.

The Shin Ki Ko Ho is stated to be far more powerful than the KHH which we would assume to mean the amp given to the Ki Ko Ho is greater than the amp given to the KHH. The KHH was 2.3x during the Saiyan Arc, if the Ki Ko Ho was as strong as its was supposed to be, it would've easily surpassed Gohan's masenko.

The Kikoho is always stronger than the Kamehameha? Permanently, no matter what?
During the, what was it 22nd Budokai? The Kikoho was stated to be far surpassed the KHH. We don't know what the KHH amplifier was at that time, we only know its 2.3x during the Saiyan Arc against Raditz.

Now for one, the KHH can increase its amplifier through we assume maybe training or some sort. We know that the same thing can be done with the Kikoho just because Tenshinhan did at least push cell, he budged him, despite being multifold weaker than him. I mean the difference between 100% Freeza and Namek Vegeta probably wasn't that big.

With Tenshinhan training ever since the 22nd budokai, you'd think that Kikoho would've gotten stronger. Plus its not just that the Kikoho was a little bit stronger, it's MUCH stronger. At some point the KHH amp may have surpassed it, but it needed to work for it. Plus again the attack uses life force, with Tenshinhan nearly dead when attacking Nappa and you can see it.

Against Cell, he's pounding Cell with several blasts and basically just passes out. Against Nappa, he uses one attack and its enough to kill him.
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Chapter: 132, P14.1
Kame-sennin: “It’s a technique that holds outrageous destructive power…many levels above even the Kamehameha…However, because of this extreme terribleness, it fiercely depletes one’s own energy, and they say people have even died from it…Even if one doesn’t die, one’s lifespan will undoubtedly be shortened…”

Chapter: 133, P8.2
Context: after the Kikoho blows up the ring
Kame-sennin: “Ju-just as I’d expect, this is stupendous destructive power…There’s no comparison between it and the Kamehameha…!”


But does "destructive power" make the attack more amplified than the Kamehameha?
Edited by Pyrus, Jul 10 2013, 02:17 AM.
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IllogicalGlory
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I think the KHH can at least compare to it. The KHH, the KHH destroyed an entire mountain, while the Kikoho only managed to open a giant ring-sized hole, I'd say there's room for comparison there.

Not to mention it was never compared to the super kamehameha.
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EMIYA
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The KHH= Natural Ki x amplifier

Kikoho= Life force

A healthy person can use the Kikoho and greatly surpass their natural Ki. It's practically an amplifier for their ki itself, except their utilizing their life force. In short the Kikoho is a ki attack and the life force itself pumps or amps it up. If the life force that a person has is low, then obvious the power of the attack will not be as high. Both of them are technically amplifiers, they're just used in different ways.
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The thing that makes the Shin Kikoho "stronger" is that it is repetitive, but not necessarily stronger than a basic one.

Ten was able to hold Cell back. It's the same concept if someone was to repeatedly hit you in the head with a beach ball. It doesn't cause damage, but it's definitely distracting, and will throw you for a loop.
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