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18 vs Base Kids
Topic Started: Jul 2 2013, 08:53 PM (2,668 Views)
+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

This is not a versus topic, so please do not move it.

Okay, so before I go on, I want to say these are just working numbers.

Goten: 250
- SSjin: 2500

Trunks: 275
- SSjin: 2750

Gohan (Tournament): 350
- SSjin: 3500

18 (Android Saga): 700
- Boo Arc: 800 (somewhere here or a bit less, but it's unreasonable to think she didn't make progress)


As you can see, I'm using the universal 10x multiplier, which works nicely. My reasoning for having kids so "low" is because I believe 18 is holding back during their fight. She didn't know it was the boys before they went SSjin, so why would she go all out?

Also, Goten's pledge to Trunks not to put all his power into the ki blast is an indication that they know they are a good amount stronger than 18's full power when SSjin. I feel that gap would be way too big if Base kids were equal to or just just around 18's power.

And then there is Trunks' quote about their fathers once being weaker than 18. Does he mean as Base or simply at full power? You tell me.

This might just be a shot in the dark, because I am so biased when it comes to the kids, so please... If I'm just uneducated in this, please tell me why.
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Super Vegetto
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Kids are definitly weaker than 18, without ssj form if that is what you think...
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+ Kyouks
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You've still got them several times stronger as Super Saiyans in this set anyways, so I don't really see the big deal in that gap being 9-10x as opposed to 4-5x.

Before the fight she did conclude that they weren't ordinary (“…That weird long-torso freak isn’t anyone ordinary…”; chapter 452) at least, so take that as you will.

As for the chi blast, #18 decided that she'd have to end the fight quick because of that blast and she visibly had trouble dodging it and was sweating bullets because of it, so the blast would have to at least be on her (full) level; if she held back against the boys, Trunks would've shot a blast that #18 could've dodged easily as he'd hold back based on the level she fought them at.
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"Hi, I'm No.18 and I'm in this tournament for the money, baby. So I'm fighting this Mighty Mask guy, and he's doing pretty well against me, but the thing is I'm holding back. Though instead of just increasing my strength, I'm going to keep the fight even until HOLY s*** HE'S A SUPER SAIYAN!"

It doesn't make any sense for her to hold back power, and you're forgetting that the suit restricted Trunks as well as he had to drag around Goten underneath him.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

Kyouka Suigetsu
Jul 2 2013, 09:13 PM
As for the chi blast, #18 decided that she'd have to end the fight quick because of that blast and she visibly had trouble dodging it and was sweating bullets because of it, so the blast would have to at least be on her (full) level; if she held back against the boys, Trunks would've shot a blast that #18 could've dodged easily as he'd hold back based on the level she fought them at.
She underestimated them. And the tears would be effect for her surprise. She didn't expect the blast to be so powerful.

The restriction excuse is so stupid. They're not weaker because of it.
Edited by Emmeth, Jul 2 2013, 09:23 PM.
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A blast around 4x weaker than her wouldn't cause that kind of reaction.

Quote:
 
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”
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ObsessiveFanGuy
Jul 2 2013, 09:20 PM
"Hi, I'm No.18 and I'm in this tournament for the money, baby. So I'm fighting this Mighty Mask guy, and he's doing pretty well against me, but the thing is I'm holding back. Though instead of just increasing my strength, I'm going to keep the fight even until HOLY s*** HE'S A SUPER SAIYAN!"

It doesn't make any sense for her to hold back power, and you're forgetting that the suit restricted Trunks as well as he had to drag around Goten underneath him.
This so much. If she was holding back she'd just put 10% more effort and knock them out of bounds. That's not even going into the extremely random chance that #18 managed to use the perfect amount of power without being able to sense Ki in the first place.
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I Yoeri

Kyouka Suigetsu
Jul 2 2013, 09:25 PM
A blast around 4x weaker than her wouldn't cause that kind of reaction.

Quote:
 
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”
I never said the blast was 4x weaker than her.


Oh, and even though she thought the guy was out of the ordinary, she doesn't want to kill him.

Chapter: 431 (DBZ 237), P13.5-7, P14.2-6
Context: taking the punch machine preliminaries test
Kuririn: “Hey, don’t put too much power into it! You’ll break the machine.”
No.18: “I know.” *she hits it*
Referee guy: “Se-se-se-774!? I-I’m sorry, it seems to be malfunctioning! Wait a minute.”
Kuririn: “That’s why I told you not to overdo it!”
No.18: “Be quiet! It’s hard to hold back!”
Referee guy: “It-it seems to be fixed. Try again. *she hits again* …203 points…!?”

She has already stated she has problems holding back. She might not be sure she could control her powers that well.
Edited by Emmeth, Jul 2 2013, 09:28 PM.
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+ Kyouks
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If the base kids are around 4x weaker than her and she fought them evenly while holding back, then it has to be.
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I Yoeri

Kyouka Suigetsu
Jul 2 2013, 09:27 PM
If the base kids are around 4x weaker than her and she fought them evenly while holding back, then it has to be.
They already went super saiyan when they fired the chi blast.
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And Goten told Trunks to hold back when firing the blast. The blast wouldn't be too much stronger than 18's level when fighting them.
Edited by Kyouks, Jul 2 2013, 09:31 PM.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8397435&t=8331271

Very relevant:

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8369378/1/
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8506445&t=8369378
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8506409&t=8369378
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8307573&t=8297103
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8307536&t=8297103

@The restrictive suit excuse: That's not really the main point of the argument, even.

Supplementary Material Evidence
Daizenshuu 7
Trunks' bio
At the Youth Division of the 25th Tenkaichi Budoukai, he defeated Goten and won the championship. He and Goten then participated in the Adult Division as Mighty Mask, demonstrating strength on par with No. 18's, until she managed to see through their disguise. He passed through the finals at the 28th Tenkaichi Budoukai, but the tournament's final results are unknown. (Daizenshuu 4, p.123-124)

What that is saying is that Trunks and No.18 fought evenly until the boys turned Super Saiyan and were disqualified, as no fighting between them took place after they'd transformed (apart from the Ki blast from Trunks).
Edited by Pyrus, Jul 2 2013, 09:50 PM.
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+ Emmeth
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I Yoeri

I kinda abandoned this. I'm not changing my view just yet, but I might have to tweek around with my numbers. Sorry for making a fuss about it :p
Edited by Emmeth, Jul 2 2013, 10:13 PM.
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Professor Freeza
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Excuse me , but how does androids improve and be stronger unless you change their Artificial Ki Battery ?
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Lord Magus
Jul 2 2013, 10:12 PM
I kinda abandoned this. I'm not changing my view just yet, but I might have to tweek around with my numbers. Sorry for making a fuss about it :p

Elaborate.
Professor Freeza
Jul 3 2013, 05:09 AM
Excuse me , but how does androids improve and be stronger unless you change their Artificial Ki Battery ?

The theory goes that since they are from a human base, they can still train and grow stronger like a human normally would. I find that hardly sufficient, though, since that's not hinted to be the case whatsoever.
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