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- Who was stronger Mecha Frieza or Dr. gero and android 19 pre absorption
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| Who was stronger Mecha Frieza or Dr. gero and android 19 pre absorption | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 21 2013, 01:28 PM (10,462 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Jun 24 2013, 07:39 PM Post #166 |
 
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It's very true that Vegeta was referring to Trunks' tale when he said #19 wasn't as bad as the rumors made him out to be. Reading the fight, this is how I see it happen: Goku transform to Super Saiyan and Gero says that even though Son-kun's power surpasses his calculations, they aren't afraid; he and #19 can manage. Then during the fight, as Goku is busting #19 down, Gero thinks to himself that the power-up (note: he only notes one power-up, meaning Goku's Super Saiyan transformation) is so far above what his data projected that #19 will be beaten before he has the chance to take Goku's power. Gero's statements in conjunction point to the suggestion that even though Goku's power far exceeded their own, they were confident because they would simply absorb his power to win. The problem came from Goku's power being too much more than predicted that Gero miscalculated. Spoiler: click to toggle
Edited by Pyrus, Jun 24 2013, 08:12 PM.
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| Zenet | Jun 24 2013, 08:00 PM Post #167 |
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Goku was stronger than 19 and it showed, So either way Dr Gero miscalculated. Piccolo mentions Goku was close to fighting at full power until the fight dragged. Sick Goku only implies for that. Yadrat Goku blocked Trunks sword with his finger. This feat surpasses the Future Androids who at times had to double team Trunks. Android Goku > Yadrat Goku > Future Androids > Trunks ~ 19 fighting Vegeta > Pre absorption 19 ~ Namek Goku |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 24 2013, 08:08 PM Post #168 |
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Cenet, you're incorrect. "You weren't coming at me with all you had." - Goku The gap is not that big at all. Edited by Pyrus, Jun 24 2013, 08:10 PM.
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| * Yu Narukami | Jun 24 2013, 08:13 PM Post #169 |
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Izanagi!
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It'd be more like; Future Androids >~ SSJ Goku (Healthy) >>> SSJ Goku (Sick) > Android #19 (Pre-absorptions) >> SSJ Goku (Post-Yardrat) > SSJ Trunks |
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| EMIYA | Jun 24 2013, 08:13 PM Post #170 |
"I am the bone of my sword."
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Gero miscalculated on the fact that he didn't expect Goku's power to increase. Piccolo already states to Gero that they can release their power in bursts. Gero lookd at Sick Goku and came to the easy conclusion that No. 19 would not have a difficult time with him. Yardrat Goku>Cyborgs is unreasonable. Trunks made it very clear how dangerous they were and it was a reason they trained so hard. Some of them, such as Piccolo didn't even think they'd be as strong after 3 years of training. Goku certainly wasn't going to be stronger than the cyborgs. What you have is SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Goku Healthy>~No. 20>Post Absorption No. 19>Sick Goku>Yardrat Goku>~SSJ Trunks>Mecha Freeza. Trunks tale put the cyborgs well above Yardrat Goku. That's enough to put Pre-19 btween Sick Goku and Yardrat Goku and even Yardrat Goku and SSJ Trunks, or above mecha Freeza while still retaining the implication of "Not being as bad" from Vegeta' statement. Edited by EMIYA, Jun 24 2013, 08:15 PM.
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Jun 24 2013, 08:22 PM Post #171 |
 
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You forgot the most important point. They are not future androids. And hell no. Geros calculations were definitly wrong. Gokus power when he transformed didnt change at all, yet he belives android 19 is still stronger. After goku starts fighthing he realized that his calculations were wrong and that 19 doesnt stand a chance without absorbing gokus energy before he runs out of his.. The biggest misscalculation is that gero never belived how someone can be strong as ssj or piccolo that is compered to ssj power... |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 24 2013, 08:38 PM Post #172 |
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Which refers to suppression, which is what Goku did against Nappa and the Ginyu Force, and what Piccolo did prior to telling Gero about that. Goku cannot suppress his power as a Super Saiyan before the RoSaT.
Not when #19 can absorb power, which is the entire basis of Gero's prediction, or he wouldn't have brought it up when Goku was winning the fight.
They all have to fit in on par or below the future androids, though. |
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| EMIYA | Jun 24 2013, 08:41 PM Post #173 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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It doesn't matter if they're the cyborgs or not. They could be Bill Cosby and Dumbledore, as long as the gang thinks those are the cyborgs, they are the cyborgs. They were told explicity by Trunks just how dangerous the so called "cyborgs" were and so its only fair to think that Goku would want to fight at a level well beyond his Yardrat self, one that was already well above Mecha Freeza. I've already given the implication of Goku using a burst of energy against No 19 when he firsts starts to attack, something you can even see considering how serious Goku gets and starts yelling as he charges against No. 19. People don't have to visibly be shown to power up to show that their ki has increased. We see this all the time. We see Freeza go from 50% to 70% doing nothing more than shooting a Kai at SSJ Goku. We see Cell surpassing Vegeta by crossing his arms and smiling smugly. We see SSJ3 Gotenks surpass Super Boo by punching him a lot despite the fact they were both equal before. It's not beyond the realm of impossibility to have Initial Goku (Who is already suffering under the effects of the Heart Virus) to actually be at a level that is non-threatening to No. 19 (Whether or not Goku is still stronger may be argued) and once Goku attacks, once Goku uses that burst of energy, once Goku has clearly increased his level for a short time that's when Gero realizes that he was wrong and that Goku was much stronger than he anticipated. And again to say Gero was mistaken on the initial Goku and have No. 19 weaker than Freeza means that Gero made the mistake of thinking that: SSJ Vegeta>SSJ Goku>~No.19 (Post absorption)>Sick Goku (After fighting for a bit)>Yardrat Goku>~SSj Trunks>Mecha Freeza>~No. 19 (Pre Absoprtion) That is a massive gap mistake to make for a guy who is apparently using scanning data to make calculations, unless Gero thinks a near 2x or more gap is "non-threatening". There is again a limit to how much of a mistake Gero can make before it becomes outright ridiculous. @ Pyrus: Firstly, who says Goku can't suppress his SSJ form? Was that ever stated? He's got the strain of the SSJ form, but does anything say that the moment he transforms he has to constantly put out 100% effort? I mean even in that case, the fact that Goku's not outright decimating No. 19 in a single shot as Trunks had done with Freeza only helps more along the idea that No. 19>Mecha Freeza. Edited by EMIYA, Jun 24 2013, 08:42 PM.
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| + Pyrus | Jun 24 2013, 08:45 PM Post #174 |
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There is no implication. He simply begins fighting. It isn't like the anime where Goku's aura blows up as he takes off. It's pretty obvious that nobody can suppress in the form before mastering it. If it was doable beforehand, Vegeta's shock and respect at Goku/Gohan doing it later would be redundant and unnecessary. Effort and power are not the same thing either, as evidenced by Super Saiyan 3 Goku fighting Fat Boo. It's simpler to go with the idea that Gero had in mind absorbing energy than to assume Goku was somehow suppressing and then powered up as he attacked. Edited by Pyrus, Jun 24 2013, 08:47 PM.
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| + Kyouks | Jun 24 2013, 08:48 PM Post #175 |
 
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Wow, I take a peak and this is what I see? Apparently a fighter superior to the future androids needs 3 years of training and even with that in mind it's only enough to give Trunks a little hope. Aside from that, I also disagree with Sick Goku >> Yardrat Goku, y so difrent from me. |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 24 2013, 08:50 PM Post #176 |
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Ja, I didn't bother to pick at that because I figured it was an intentional mistake or something. |
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| EMIYA | Jun 24 2013, 08:57 PM Post #177 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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But Vegeta doesn't trat it like Goku can't suppress himself, he's amazed that Goku can hold the SSJ form without the strain of it, which was the entire point before. Nothing states that Goku has to constantly be at full power and that his ki is constantly exerting its full effort. For example Broly is stated to have ever rising ki, he's shown that he can't control it and has to release it, Goku or any other Super Saiyan is never shown to have this kind of problem, it's always been the strain itself. Same thing with SSj3 Goku, nothing states he can't suppress himself, he just has a huge amount of straing on his body. |
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| + Kyouks | Jun 24 2013, 08:57 PM Post #178 |
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@ObsessivePyro: I just don't think his advantage (Goku over Trunks) is all that great when he admits that he's scared of people who can pound Trunks. So, pre-absorption androids. Skimming the thread I can agree with #19 starting off below Trunks since he wasn't much stronger post-absorption. #20's a doozy though since he seemingly garners more attention from Vegeta after absorbing a not-very-impressive looking blast. I tend to ignore #20 pre altogether though since he does nothing before absorbing Yamcha's power. So how do you take Gero telling #19 he was getting greedy? Edited by Kyouks, Jun 24 2013, 08:58 PM.
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| Alex D. Boss | Jun 24 2013, 09:00 PM Post #179 |
 
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The rumors were true. Thats the point your argument fails when you use that quote, as The Droids are implied to be above Yardrat Goku. Pre 19 being between Trunks and Y Goku could either way. @ I would also like to bring up one bigass post against Super Vegetto , but Brofist already finished this lmao. |
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| + Pyrus | Jun 24 2013, 09:03 PM Post #180 |
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Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P6.1-2 Context: Goku and Gohan emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time Vegeta (to self): “…What’s with them?!...Is that Super Saiyan…!? No…It has a slightly different atmosphere…They’re being so natural in that state…” Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7 Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…” [ ] Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…” Still think the same thing?
Really irrelevant and not the same thing. @Kyo: Same here. |
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