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ssj only needs to be 25 @ frieza
Topic Started: May 30 2013, 05:47 PM (3,480 Views)
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While I do not agree with the suggestions made in the topic, I thought this was important to note on the subject:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P1.3-4
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Goku: "Wh-what...! That didn't effect him much...! S-so that wasn't a bluff either...He really is only using half his power..."
I realize no power-up is noted but the only way for Goku to know that Freeza was at 50% power is for Freeza to go beyond 50% power.

[Blocking KKx20 KHH] Freeza > [KKx20] Goku's KHH > [50%] Freeza


If you support the idea that KK amplification overrides KHH amplification: You can have SSJ Goku lower than 50x his base at the time.

If you support the idea that KK and KHH amplifications stack: You can leave SSJ Goku at 50x his base or push it even higher if you desire/need (depending on the gap you want between him and 100% Freeza).
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Andro
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I'm sure Toriyama didn't think of that.
But that's a really lazy answer, I know.

But 20x Kaioken not being able to defeat Freeza is absurd. I'm sure even if Gokuu got a 3x power boost he would still be able to defeat Freeza.
20x is overkill if you ask me. Even 10x is extreme. We see Gokuu base wasn't totally being owned by Freeza THAT easily.
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DSB
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The Showstopper

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Jun 1 2013, 08:41 AM
While I do not agree with the suggestions made in the topic, I thought this was important to note on the subject:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P1.3-4
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Goku: "Wh-what...! That didn't effect him much...! S-so that wasn't a bluff either...He really is only using half his power..."
I realize no power-up is noted but the only way for Goku to know that Freeza was at 50% power is for Freeza to go beyond 50% power.

[Blocking KKx20 KHH] Freeza > [KKx20] Goku's KHH > [50%] Freeza



If you support the idea that KK amplification overrides KHH amplification: You can have SSJ Goku lower than 50x his base at the time.

If you support the idea that KK and KHH amplifications stack: You can leave SSJ Goku at 50x his base or push it even higher if you desire/need (depending on the gap you want between him and 100% Freeza).


Freeza powered up to 50% but never used that much power to beat down Goku . Possibly , he used his 50% power to stop the KKx20 KHH

Andro38Z
Jun 1 2013, 08:48 AM
I'm sure Toriyama didn't think of that.
But that's a really lazy answer, I know.

But 20x Kaioken not being able to defeat Freeza is absurd. I'm sure even if Gokuu got a 3x power boost he would still be able to defeat Freeza.
20x is overkill if you ask me. Even 10x is extreme. We see Gokuu base wasn't totally being owned by Freeza THAT easily.


Thats the Difference between u and the creator .
you are fond of small power gaps and increases . But AT didnt go that way . at Every possible way , he showed than there are big gaps in DBZ

Quote:
 
We see Gokuu base wasn't totally being owned by Freeza THAT easily.


becoz he wasnt even using his 50% power
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DSB
Jun 1 2013, 11:43 AM
Vertical
Jun 1 2013, 08:41 AM
While I do not agree with the suggestions made in the topic, I thought this was important to note on the subject:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P1.3-4
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Goku: "Wh-what...! That didn't effect him much...! S-so that wasn't a bluff either...He really is only using half his power..."
I realize no power-up is noted but the only way for Goku to know that Freeza was at 50% power is for Freeza to go beyond 50% power.

[Blocking KKx20 KHH] Freeza > [KKx20] Goku's KHH > [50%] Freeza



If you support the idea that KK amplification overrides KHH amplification: You can have SSJ Goku lower than 50x his base at the time.

If you support the idea that KK and KHH amplifications stack: You can leave SSJ Goku at 50x his base or push it even higher if you desire/need (depending on the gap you want between him and 100% Freeza).
Freeza powered up to 50% but never used that much power to beat down Goku . Possibly , he used his 50% power to stop the KKx20 KHH
That still wouldn't explain why Goku believes that Freeza wasn't bluffing [about 50%].

Freeza powers up to 50%... Goku senses it... after the KHH Goku confirms that it was 50% of Freeza's power (or at least not his maximum) that he had been facing up 'til that point. The only way for this statement to make sense would be for Freeza to have increased his strength.

Quote:
 
Thats the Difference between u and the creator .
you are fond of small power gaps and increases . But AT didnt go that way . at Every possible way , he showed than there are big gaps in DBZ
Except that every scouter reading during the Namek arc suggests small (less than 20% or 1.2x) gaps in power making huge differences.
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SurRealistic
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Jonny Rivers

Just a thought, but maybe Frieza powered up a little in order to stop Goku's Kamehameha and then powered back down to 50%
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lunar2
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actually, goku vs. frieza (initial) would suggest that if you are suppressed, you are more durable than someone who is actually that power would be. goku was consistently surprised that frieza wasn't being injured by his attacks. so frieza wouldn't need to power up for goku to know he wasn't bluffing, the mere fact he didn't take as much damage as goku had hoped was proof that frieza was holding back.

@kaioken + KHH amp. i think the amps stack, but the KHH amp is much smaller than normal, because you can devote your full amount of ki or concentration to the attack. any time you have to multitask, you will be less effective at each than when you are focusing on just one thing.

@goku/frieza losing power. frieza did not lose power from the genki dama. he was stated multiple times to be at 100% vs. ssj goku. frieza's power is mostly derived from yuuki (willpower) rather than genki (life force/ health), so he can temporarily fight at full power even when badly injured.

as for goku, his power loss only comes into play for the kaioken. all it does is contract the difference between his kkx10 power (10x his full base power) and his kkx20 power (20x his remaining base power, or about 12x his full base power).

once you get to ssj, one of 2 things happen. if ssj is multiplicative (it just multiplies whatever power you have available) then goku had to have had his ki restored by his transformation, since he was completely exhausted before he transformed. if ssj is additive (it adds a certain amount of power, regardless of how much base power you have left), then goku's remaining base power is largely irrelevant.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Why, though? It's all well and good putting forward these theories, but there's a simple, easy explanation presented.

Goku (Base) : 3,000,000
(Kaioken x10) : 30,000,000
(Kaioken x20) : 60,000,000
(SSJ) : 150,000,000

The Kamehameha doesn't have an amp in Kaioken
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DSB
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The Showstopper

lunar2
Jun 2 2013, 04:50 PM
@kaioken + KHH amp. i think the amps stack, but the KHH amp is much smaller than normal, because you can devote your full amount of ki or concentration to the attack. any time you have to multitask, you will be less effective at each than when you are focusing on just one thing.
Somehow , many people [including myself] have said that , if u are using kaioken , u ant Amplify the KHH anymore
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DSB
Jun 2 2013, 04:59 PM
lunar2
Jun 2 2013, 04:50 PM
@kaioken + KHH amp. i think the amps stack, but the KHH amp is much smaller than normal, because you can devote your full amount of ki or concentration to the attack. any time you have to multitask, you will be less effective at each than when you are focusing on just one thing.
Somehow , many people [including myself] have said that , if u are using kaioken , u ant Amplify the KHH anymore
If there's no amplification: The question then becomes; what's the point of using a Kamehameha instead of a normal Ki blast, or even simply punching/kicking?
If there's full amplification: Galic Gun will have a largely superior amplifier to KHH and Freeza is far stronger than most believe.
If there's partial amplification: Galic Gun remains within KHH-tier for amplification. Freeza can remain sub-150 million [if you believe he powered up briefly [to perhaps 70%] during the KKx20KHH].
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Izanagi!

Why did Goku use the Kamehameha? Well, there are two big reasons;

1) He's not one to use simple ki blasts, and punching and kicking would simply lead to him getting beaten out of Kaioken

2) Y'know how boring and dull that'd be? Goku powers up massively and throws what, a simple ki blast?
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Drew
Jun 2 2013, 11:28 PM
1) He's not one to use simple ki blasts, and punching and kicking would simply lead to him getting beaten out of Kaioken
Goku does use "simple Ki blasts", so he is one to use them. If KHH doesn't amp with KK, then shouldn't Goku's initial punch have hurt Freeza as much as the KHH?

Quote:
 
2) Y'know how boring and dull that'd be? Goku powers up massively and throws what, a simple ki blast?
Boring/dull is an out-of-universe opinion and not a relevant argument. Also, the last attack Goku throws at Freeza is a "simple Ki blast".
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+ miguelnuva
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Goku always falls back on the KHH and it would still do more damage then a simple ki blast.
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Gogeta power placement
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