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ssj only needs to be 25 @ frieza
Topic Started: May 30 2013, 05:47 PM (3,482 Views)
lunar2
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DopeMan
May 31 2013, 11:25 AM
Even if Frieza was equal to KK20 Goku, Frieza was still only at 50% power, so you need at least x40 for SSJ to at least match Full-Power Frieza.
did anyone even read the OP?

@vegeta8558 and DSB. frieza being able to block the attack is not a sign that goku is inferior. equal or roughly equal opponents block attacks from each other all the time in the series. and frieza was clearly injured by the blast. he had burn marks across his entire body.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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IllogicalGlory
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Furious

lunar2
May 31 2013, 05:14 PM
frieza being able to block the attack is not a sign that goku is inferior. equal or roughly equal opponents block attacks from each other all the time in the series. and frieza was clearly injured by the blast. he had burn marks across his entire body.
When you're equal to someone, you can't block their full power attack with one hand and not take any damage.
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lunar2
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IllogicalGlory
May 31 2013, 05:18 PM
lunar2
May 31 2013, 05:14 PM
frieza being able to block the attack is not a sign that goku is inferior. equal or roughly equal opponents block attacks from each other all the time in the series. and frieza was clearly injured by the blast. he had burn marks across his entire body.
When you're equal to someone, you can't block their full power attack with one hand and not take any damage.
frieza did take damage. he had burn marks all over his body, and he stated that it hurt.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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SurRealistic
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Jonny Rivers

lunar2
May 31 2013, 05:14 PM
DopeMan
May 31 2013, 11:25 AM
Even if Frieza was equal to KK20 Goku, Frieza was still only at 50% power, so you need at least x40 for SSJ to at least match Full-Power Frieza.
did anyone even read the OP?
You think that Goku's base power has dropped because he was using Kaioken x10, however that was never stated. It was only stated by Gohan that Goku's power has dropped AFTER the use of Kaioken x20.
Edited by SurRealistic, May 31 2013, 05:51 PM.
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IllogicalGlory
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Furious

lunar2
May 31 2013, 05:35 PM
frieza did take damage. he had burn marks all over his body, and he stated that it hurt.
Being hurt=/=taking damage, I get hurt when I stub my toe, that doesn't mean it would impede my physical abilities for more than a minute or two. Frieza was totally fine, he may have gotten burned, but it was a slight and meaningless injury.
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lunar2
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DopeMan
May 31 2013, 05:50 PM
lunar2
May 31 2013, 05:14 PM
DopeMan
May 31 2013, 11:25 AM
Even if Frieza was equal to KK20 Goku, Frieza was still only at 50% power, so you need at least x40 for SSJ to at least match Full-Power Frieza.
did anyone even read the OP?
You think that Goku's base power has dropped because he was using Kaioken x10, however that was never stated. It was only stated by Gohan that Goku's power has dropped AFTER the use of Kaioken x20.
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P3.1-2
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Kuririn: “Un-unbelievable…Goku’s Kamehameha just now ought to have had outrageous power…So why did Freeza take hardly any damage…!?”
Gohan: “Fa-father’s ki has fallen a lot…”


gohan was responding to krillin's statement. goku's KHH didn't hurt frieza more than it did because goku's ki has fallen a lot.

@ injuries. so 2nd and maybe 3rd degree burns over large portions of your body is now a slight and meaningless injury? wow. this wasn't a toe stub. frieza was damaged by an attack that wasn't even properly amped, as has been established by goku vs. vegeta (unless you think the galik gun is just that much better than the KHH, despite being almost identical attacks).
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Majin Vegeta
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lunar2
May 31 2013, 06:15 PM
DopeMan
May 31 2013, 05:50 PM
lunar2
May 31 2013, 05:14 PM
DopeMan
May 31 2013, 11:25 AM
Even if Frieza was equal to KK20 Goku, Frieza was still only at 50% power, so you need at least x40 for SSJ to at least match Full-Power Frieza.
did anyone even read the OP?
You think that Goku's base power has dropped because he was using Kaioken x10, however that was never stated. It was only stated by Gohan that Goku's power has dropped AFTER the use of Kaioken x20.
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P3.1-2
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Kuririn: “Un-unbelievable…Goku’s Kamehameha just now ought to have had outrageous power…So why did Freeza take hardly any damage…!?”
Gohan: “Fa-father’s ki has fallen a lot…”


gohan was responding to krillin's statement. goku's KHH didn't hurt frieza more than it did because goku's ki has fallen a lot.

@ injuries. so 2nd and maybe 3rd degree burns over large portions of your body is now a slight and meaningless injury? wow. this wasn't a toe stub. frieza was damaged by an attack that wasn't even properly amped, as has been established by goku vs. vegeta (unless you think the galik gun is just that much better than the KHH, despite being almost identical attacks).
Yeah but when Goku transform to a Ssj he was totally weaker did hes strengh restored or something :blush: b
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IllogicalGlory
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Furious

Quote:
 
gohan was responding to krillin's statement. goku's KHH didn't hurt frieza more than it did because goku's ki has fallen a lot.
Goku's ki had fallen after the KKx20, not before. Gohan was not responding to Krillin's comment, he was merely expressing a feeling of hopelessness, as Goku's maximum power had next to no effect on Frieza and now his ki has dropped and he will be unable to perform another KKx20, so they're screwed.

KKx20 was 20 times Goku's full power, there's nothing to contradict that, even if he had taken damage, his resolve would allow him to overcome for at least as long as his kaio-ken lasted.

Quote:
 
@ injuries. so 2nd and maybe 3rd degree burns over large portions of your body is now a slight and meaningless injury? wow. this wasn't a toe stub. frieza was damaged by an attack that wasn't even properly amped, as has been established by goku vs. vegeta (unless you think the galik gun is just that much better than the KHH, despite being almost identical attacks).
When you have third degree burns all over your body, you don't get annoyed, you're down for the count, but Frieza wasn't even affected by Goku's attack. If I'm remembering correctly, those burn marks faded away almost instantly. They clearly were not as bad as you think they are, certainly nowhere near enough to harm 50% Frieza.
Edited by IllogicalGlory, May 31 2013, 06:28 PM.
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SurRealistic
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lunar2
May 31 2013, 06:15 PM
DopeMan
May 31 2013, 05:50 PM
lunar2
May 31 2013, 05:14 PM
DopeMan
May 31 2013, 11:25 AM
Even if Frieza was equal to KK20 Goku, Frieza was still only at 50% power, so you need at least x40 for SSJ to at least match Full-Power Frieza.
did anyone even read the OP?
You think that Goku's base power has dropped because he was using Kaioken x10, however that was never stated. It was only stated by Gohan that Goku's power has dropped AFTER the use of Kaioken x20.
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P3.1-2
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Kuririn: “Un-unbelievable…Goku’s Kamehameha just now ought to have had outrageous power…So why did Freeza take hardly any damage…!?”
Gohan: “Fa-father’s ki has fallen a lot…”


gohan was responding to krillin's statement. goku's KHH didn't hurt frieza more than it did because goku's ki has fallen a lot.

@ injuries. so 2nd and maybe 3rd degree burns over large portions of your body is now a slight and meaningless injury? wow. this wasn't a toe stub. frieza was damaged by an attack that wasn't even properly amped, as has been established by goku vs. vegeta (unless you think the galik gun is just that much better than the KHH, despite being almost identical attacks).
And how would you know that?
As far as I'm concearned he's talking about his Ki falling after the KKx20 KHH and Gohan was commenting on that, Krillin said that the KKH was very powerful and Gohan said that now that he's used up all his energy his Ki has dropped and I also remember Piccolo saying something like "We've lost" after Gohan making that comment, meaning that Goku was at max Kaioken but it used up all his energy so now they've lost.
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* Yu Narukami
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Freeza had a lot of superficial injuries, and he was hurt, but it was nothing major. Like Nappa; he got hit in the back by Piccolo's blast and had burns, but it wasn't major.
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factor * power vs factor * max power

I would say that there is support that Kaio-Ken raises power to max power and multiplies power.

Triple Kaio-Ken: Bulma starts counting Son Goku's power from 17,000; this may imply that Son Goku's power increases quickly passed anything Kaio-Ken ×2 reaches.

@ Garlic Gun: Goku uses Kaio-Ken (3) when firing off Kamehameha and then (4) to beat Garlic Gun. Note that Son doesn't stay in Kaio-Ken (3) during the struggle and is able to gain ground and Son only uses Kaio-Ken (4) to finish Vegeta off.

@ Ginyu: Son Goku starts from much less than 85,000 to 90,000 almost instantly when he used Kaio-Ken.

http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/gain_1.php?fpp=20&did=0-0-20&fid=184&smf=1
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+ miguelnuva
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Goku says on the way to Namek I can handle a 10xKK as well as a 2xKK from saiyan saga.

Kaio-Kenx2 never caused Goku's power to drop.
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miguelnuva
May 31 2013, 09:03 PM
Goku says on the way to Namek I can handle a 10xKK as well as a 2xKK from saiyan saga.

Kaio-Kenx2 never caused Goku's power to drop.
which means that Son Goku (Freeza, Kamehameha x20) is just about identical to Son Goku (Vegeta, Kamehameha x4)

Freeza looks better than Vegeta looked when getting hit.
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miguelnuva
May 31 2013, 09:03 PM
Goku says on the way to Namek I can handle a 10xKK as well as a 2xKK from saiyan saga.

Kaio-Kenx2 never caused Goku's power to drop.
True, but I assume that repeated use would cause it to drop. The technique isn't ideal when it comes to bodily health.
I think the higher he amps it up, the more likely that his body is to give out. Or even the more often he uses it, the more likely he is to do it wrong.
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Sam
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 06:30 PM
You'd pretty much need 50x for Goku's battle against Freeza.

Freeza was able to pretty much manhandle even KK20 Goku so for the sake of things we'll give Freeza a 1.2x advantage.

Goku Base: 10

Goku KK10: 100

Goku: KK20: 200

50% Freeza: 240

100% Freeza: 480

SSJ Goku: 500

It works out pretty darn well in the end really.
This pretty much sums it up for me. While you're (lunar) right that Goku's power certainly diminished, Freeza's took a huge hit as well from the genki dama. While they may not have been even, that helped a lot. Both of their maximum capable powers were lowered as a result of the fight, so, in that regard, they were more even.
Edited by Sam, Jun 1 2013, 08:05 AM.
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