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| ssj only needs to be 25 @ frieza | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 30 2013, 05:47 PM (3,483 Views) | |
| + Majin Vegeta | May 30 2013, 08:30 PM Post #31 |
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The resident GT fan!
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So if Frieza didn't said the quote he would almost duy its much more logical to assume that Frieza just caught of guard by Gokus new power up and nothing more than that,Goku vs Vegeta Kaioken 2x for example just at the time,and we see Frieza deflecting the KHH with one hand that says that he really was surprised by Gokus attack and he block it after he realized his power |
![]() "Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta | |
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| lunar2 | May 30 2013, 08:32 PM Post #32 |
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he doesn't amplify his own power without powering up. that's what powering up is. the kamehameha amplifies the user's ki by taking it all and condensing to small area. if goku doesn't take the time to focus and condense his ki, then there is no amplification, it's just a beam of ki. and that's all goku did. frieza didn't even have time to get back into stance before goku fired the KHH, so goku certainly didn't have the time to charge it properly. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| EMIYA | May 30 2013, 08:45 PM Post #33 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I need someone to get either VIZ or the original for me since I don't want to be mistaken here. But it seems Goku actually does start powering up the KHH against Freeza. The difference between KHH against Raditz is that he powers it up in one panel. Against Freeza he starts powering it up as he's fighting through each panel. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/dragon_ball/v26/c013/11.html I doubt such a mistake as a KHH was mis-translated here but I want to make sure since it's not like Herms has such a thing ready and I don't want to mistake that for random grunting that was mistranslated. In this case even if you argue the fact that Goku KK20 is equal to 50% Freeza or that Freeza increased his power, you'd still need a hefty increase for the SSJ multiplier. If we give Goku that same 2.3x KHH increase as he does against Raditz and we'll say Freeza used 60% of his power. Goku: 10 KKX20 2/ KHH amp: 460 Freeza: 60% 529 (Gave him a 1.15x difference) Freeza 100%: 846 Obviously 50x SSJ won't do it here. Edited by EMIYA, May 30 2013, 09:14 PM.
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| lunar2 | May 30 2013, 09:37 PM Post #34 |
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you keep missing one thing. equal or near equal opponents often do block each other's beams. blocking a beam from someone on your own level is nothing special. ssj3 goku not only blocked fat buu's KHH, he reversed it right back at buu. granted, that took 2 hands, but it also was a more impressive feat than simply blocking an attack. those two were pretty close to even in the mount of power they were using, so it's a comparable feat. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| EMIYA | May 30 2013, 09:42 PM Post #35 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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The difference there is that, the battle between Goku Boo is treated as an equalized fight where both are capable of dishing out serious damage against each. People were shocked when Freeza blocked it and make direct note that the attack did little damage to him. And as my other post indicated, this KHH may actually have been amped making a 50x increase not even possible in some instance. Freeza didn't just block the attack, he blocked it without taking much damage. Goku's strongest attack there which pretty much indicates that Freeza had a significant advantage over him at that point. |
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| Raiken | May 30 2013, 09:42 PM Post #36 |
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I just use x10 for SSJ and x5 for KK10 and x10 for KK20. I personally see KK20 Goku and SSJ Goku at a similar level. I'ts just KK20 has massive strain, and as soon as it's used, your power is constantly dropping, and dropping. But SSJ is stably maintained with minimal strain in comparison. And I really don't think that Kamehameha was amped. Or if it was, it was only slightly. Also Freeza really did struggle to block it, and seemed fairly hurt after blocking it. And there's the possibility that Freeza had to raise his power above 50% slightly to block it. Goku wanted it to at least injure Freeza to a significant extent to allow him to win. And how would he conclude 50% was not his maximum if Freeza blocked it only using 50%. Edited by Raiken, May 30 2013, 09:49 PM.
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| EMIYA | May 30 2013, 09:51 PM Post #37 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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If you want to use a 10x SSj for the Android Arc and onwards, be my guest. If you try to use that 10x during the battle with Freeza there's no chance. You could have Freeza 3x weaker than KK20 Goku and it wouldn't work. Goku: 10 KK Goku: 200 Freeza 50%: 66 Freeza 100%: 133 You just can't do it. You just can't make it work with the Freeza Arc. You'd have to pull out the most insane amount of baseless assuming logic ever to try and make sense of it. |
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| lunar2 | May 30 2013, 09:52 PM Post #38 |
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this actually brings up another question. how do the kaioken and the KHH interact with each other? when using the KK, do you get the full amp from your attacks? i think goku vs. vegeta would suggest not. the galik gun was compared to the KHH, but goku using kaioken x3 should be much stronger than vegeta. so either the galik gun is actually a much more powerful attack than the KHH, or goku's KHH wasn't getting properly amped, despite being fully charged for a beam battle. that would suggest that when you are using multiple amping techniques, you get diminishing returns, at best.
no. ssj must be more than double kkx10 against frieza. kkx10 goku was weaker than 50% frieza. ssj goku was stronger than 100% frieza. 25x base is really about as low as you can go for ssj goku vs. frieza. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| EMIYA | May 30 2013, 10:01 PM Post #39 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I'd definitely have to say Vegeta's attack holds less amp. Let's say for sake of argument Goku has a PL of 8,200. KK4 Goku= 32,000 Vegeta: 18,000 Vegeta Galic gun: If we give it the same amp as the KHH, that's a whopping 41,000+ power level there. But another thing is the fact that if you give Goku that amplifier, then the KKX3 would've been enough. In the end I'd actually give Vegeta a smaller amp for the Galic Gun and that way if you can't increase the amp for Goku's KHH, you can at leat make Vegeta's attack low enough that while he can beat KKX3 Goku, he'll still lose to KK4 Goku. Edited by EMIYA, May 30 2013, 10:06 PM.
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| lunar2 | May 30 2013, 10:14 PM Post #40 |
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but the thing is this. goku 8,320 vegeta 19,200 goku kkx3 24,960 goku kkx3 KHH 42,000 vegeta galik gun 42,240 the amp from the KHH in that exchange was less than the amp from the galik gun. saying the galik gun was the less powerful attack actually exacerbates the problem, because it shrinks the KHH amp even further. any way you look at it, unless you think vegeta was actually stronger than kkx3 goku, vegeta had a bigger amp than goku with a comparable attack |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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| EMIYA | May 30 2013, 10:20 PM Post #41 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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You'll have to give an amp of some sort to both attacks, this is for certain. If we both give them 2.3x it just doesn't work. Goku: 8,300 KK3 W/KHH: 57,000+ Vegeta: 18,000 Vegeta Galic Gun: 41,000+ Clearly we just can't work with that. You need to increase Vegeta's amp for his attack (Which I just now noticed I said Vegeta needed a lower amp in my last post, so my mistake there) I had to make a few changes with my post so it seems I messed up there. |
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| Selsiuss | May 30 2013, 10:36 PM Post #42 |
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Akira basically said that he initially thought of it as 10x, but when the Freeza saga issue of KKx20 came up he realized it must be 50x. |
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May 31 2013, 04:52 AM Post #43 |
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The Showstopper
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I dont see any reason for KKx20 Goku to be equal with 50% freeza . I made that mistake a long time ago . Freeza , after stopping the KHH with ONE HAND , said he was hurt . It is the 1st time when Freeza is seriously hurt in the entire battle of Goku vs Freeza . Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P4.4, P6.2-3 Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha Freeza: "Th-that was dangerous...Wh-why did he have such stupendous power?...Damn Saiyan! That hurt just now...IT HURT!" Obviously his Pride was more hurt than his body . Being hurt by a Low-life , Miserable Saiyan Monkey ? How can the "Lord of the Universe" Stand it ? But him stopping the attack with one hand still holds Edited by DSB, May 31 2013, 04:52 AM.
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| SurRealistic | May 31 2013, 11:25 AM Post #44 |
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Jonny Rivers
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Even if Frieza was equal to KK20 Goku, Frieza was still only at 50% power, so you need at least x40 for SSJ to at least match Full-Power Frieza. |
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| + Majin Vegeta | May 31 2013, 11:34 AM Post #45 |
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The resident GT fan!
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Which basically he is not Frieza was stronger tha Kaioken Goku 20x times he block the attack with one hand,caught of guard it was never said that he was near to duy just hurt by a monkey completly humiliates him and his pride.like DSB said he's pride was injured and not physically that much,otherwise why not stop the attack with two of his hands when he realized the attack was to powerfull simply because he could block it and he didn't want to try due to his humiliation if he actually used all of his 50% power to stop an attack coming from a monkey,later he said he hurt while using only one hand so in conclusion I believe that all of that scene was about his pride mostly Edited by Majin Vegeta, May 31 2013, 11:38 AM.
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![]() "Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!" Majin Vegeta | |
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