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ssj only needs to be 25 @ frieza
Topic Started: May 30 2013, 05:47 PM (3,484 Views)
lunar2
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Drew
May 30 2013, 07:20 PM
But then you're just pulling numbers out of nowhere. How much did Goku weaken by? Did he go from 3,000,000 to 2,999,999?
no. he went from noticeably weaker than frieza with kkx10, to about equal to frieza with kkx20. that's not numbers from nowhere, that's pretty clear that he was somewhat over half power. say, about 60%, give or take.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Seriously stop saying KK20 Goku is equal to Freeza. That makes no sense, if Goku was anywhere near Freeza, his KHH wouldn't have been blocked with one hand. In fact he wouldn't have been blocked at all and if had struck Freeza would've done a good amount of damage against him. Not some silly little burn marks on his hand.
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lunar2
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 07:24 PM
Seriously stop saying KK20 Goku is equal to Freeza. That makes no sense, if Goku was anywhere near Freeza, his KHH wouldn't have been blocked with one hand. In fact he wouldn't have been blocked at all and if had struck Freeza would've done a good amount of damage against him. Not some silly little burn marks on his hand.
except equal fighters do block each other's ki attacks all the time. all through the series. the KHH, even when fully charged, is not some uber one shot weapon. it's just another attack. and goku's was not fully charge against frieza. he punched frieza, then he shot frieza before frieza even recovered from being punched. no charge time at all.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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SSJ
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There is still the fact that a KHH has amp, whether it is small or large, it is there. Frieza had enough of a difference to confidently stop the attack with one arm.
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Raiken
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 07:08 PM
KK20 Goku wasn't anywhere near 50% Freeza. Freeza took his KHH and blocked it with one hand, leaving Goku shocked and that's without giving Goku the KHH amp along top of the KK20. Otherwise not even a 50x SSJ would've gotten the job done.
I'm afraid you're wrong. Here me out:

Goku was semi-confident that if he was bluffing and 50% was Freeza's Full Power. That a KK20 Kamehameha could possibly kill him.
But if the power level he was currently using was only 50%, he's f***ed anyway, basically. So he might as well go all out even if his Body might not take it and that he could die.
Spoiler: click to toggle

And he had the initial advantage against 50% Freeza in Close Combat in KK20, since Freeza dodged his attack later, they were probably around equal. Who really knows for sure, but there likely isn't a big difference.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Now Goku fires a KK20 Kamehameha at 50% Freeza. Freeza attempts to block it, and clearly appears to be struggling.
Spoiler: click to toggle

While he did manage to block it. He's not just burnt on his hand, but has burn marks across his entire body compared to before.
So he really did struggle to block it. "It was by no means easy."
Spoiler: click to toggle

Goku surprised that Freeza managed to block it, then realises Freeza must only have been using 50% of his power before, and that was not his maximum.
Spoiler: click to toggle

But how could he have come to that conclusion: How would Goku know that 50% was not his maximum, if 50% Freeza could have blocked it?
Because the KK20 Kamehameha would have been enough to kill 50% Freeza. And the fact that Freeza managed to block it meant it was not his Maximum.
My argument is further supported by the fact that Freeza claimed he almost died from that attack.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Hence why he is super pissed off straight after.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Which also means that it was when he was trying to Block that attack, he raised his power above 50%. He went 70% after 50% right?
Edited by Raiken, May 30 2013, 07:56 PM.
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lunar2
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SuperSaiyan3
May 30 2013, 07:30 PM
There is still the fact that a KHH has amp, whether it is small or large, it is there. Frieza had enough of a difference to confidently stop the attack with one arm.
actually no, that is not a fact. the KHH has only been shown to have an amp at all when charged.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
Member Offline View Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P4.4, P6.2-3
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Freeza: “Th-that was dangerous…Wh-why did he have such stupendous power?...Damn Saiyan! That hurt just now…IT HURT!”

Freeza didn't have to jump up at all. He doesn't mention it at all, so he stayed at 50%

Goku (Base) : 3,000,000
(Kaioken x10) : 30,000,000
(x20) : 60,000,000

Freeza (50%) : 60,000,000


Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P1.3-4
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Goku: “Wh-what…! That didn’t effect him much…! S-so that wasn’t a bluff either…He really is only using half his power…”

''That didn't effect him much.''

He wasn't expecting it to kill Freeza. He was expecting at least some outward showing of pain or damage, something which was shown a few seconds later.
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+ Majin Vegeta
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The resident GT fan!

Raiken
May 30 2013, 07:50 PM
Brofist
May 30 2013, 07:08 PM
KK20 Goku wasn't anywhere near 50% Freeza. Freeza took his KHH and blocked it with one hand, leaving Goku shocked and that's without giving Goku the KHH amp along top of the KK20. Otherwise not even a 50x SSJ would've gotten the job done.
I'm afraid you're wrong. Here me out:

Goku was semi-confident that if he was bluffing and 50% was Freeza's Full Power. That a KK20 Kamehameha could possibly kill him.
But if the power level he was currently using was only 50%, he's f***ed anyway, basically. So he might as well go all out even if his Body might not take it and that he could die.
Spoiler: click to toggle

And he had the initial advantage against 50% Freeza in Close Combat in KK20, since Freeza dodged his attack later, they were probably around equal.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Now Goku fires a KK20 Kamehameha at 50% Freeza. Freeza attempts to block it, and clearly appears to be struggling.
Spoiler: click to toggle

While he did manage to block it. He's not just burnt on his hand, but has burn marks across his entire body compared to before.
So he really did struggle to block it. "It was by no means easy."
Spoiler: click to toggle

Goku surprised that Freeza managed to block it, then realises Freeza must only have been using 50% of his power before, and that was not his maximum.
Spoiler: click to toggle

But how could he have come to that conclusion: How would Goku know that 50% was not his maximum, if 50% Freeza could have blocked it?
Because the KK20 Kamehameha would have been enough to kill 50% Freeza. And the fact that Freeza managed to block it meant it was not his Maximum.
My argument is further supported by the fact that Freeza claimed he almost died from that attack.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Hence why he is super pissed off straight after.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Which also means that it was when he was trying to Block that attack, he raised his power above 50%. He went 70% after 50% right?
It's not about strengh only you forgetting that Frieza has caught off guard he wasn't expected something like that to happened,its like Kaioken 2x against Vegetan Goku caught him off guard but Vegeta later on crush him,as for he nearly died its obvious I think whe your expecting an attack and came out of nowere with a massive attack its clearly that he wasn't ready to deflect it Frieza did not power up more than 50% it was never mention I think,he just used he's 50% powers wisely not just toying around wit Goku(I was late to join the party here :lol: )
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"Its only when we're pushed to our limits that we can truly shine!"

Majin Vegeta
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Raiken
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Vegeta8558
May 30 2013, 07:59 PM
Raiken
May 30 2013, 07:50 PM
Brofist
May 30 2013, 07:08 PM
KK20 Goku wasn't anywhere near 50% Freeza. Freeza took his KHH and blocked it with one hand, leaving Goku shocked and that's without giving Goku the KHH amp along top of the KK20. Otherwise not even a 50x SSJ would've gotten the job done.
I'm afraid you're wrong. Here me out:

Goku was semi-confident that if he was bluffing and 50% was Freeza's Full Power. That a KK20 Kamehameha could possibly kill him.
But if the power level he was currently using was only 50%, he's f***ed anyway, basically. So he might as well go all out even if his Body might not take it and that he could die.
Spoiler: click to toggle

And he had the initial advantage against 50% Freeza in Close Combat in KK20, since Freeza dodged his attack later, they were probably around equal.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Now Goku fires a KK20 Kamehameha at 50% Freeza. Freeza attempts to block it, and clearly appears to be struggling.
Spoiler: click to toggle

While he did manage to block it. He's not just burnt on his hand, but has burn marks across his entire body compared to before.
So he really did struggle to block it. "It was by no means easy."
Spoiler: click to toggle

Goku surprised that Freeza managed to block it, then realises Freeza must only have been using 50% of his power before, and that was not his maximum.
Spoiler: click to toggle

But how could he have come to that conclusion: How would Goku know that 50% was not his maximum, if 50% Freeza could have blocked it?
Because the KK20 Kamehameha would have been enough to kill 50% Freeza. And the fact that Freeza managed to block it meant it was not his Maximum.
My argument is further supported by the fact that Freeza claimed he almost died from that attack.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Hence why he is super pissed off straight after.
Spoiler: click to toggle

Which also means that it was when he was trying to Block that attack, he raised his power above 50%. He went 70% after 50% right?
It's not about strengh only you forgetting that Frieza has caught off guard he wasn't expected something like that to happened,its like Kaioken 2x against Vegetan Goku caught him off guard but Vegeta later on crush him,as for he nearly died its obvious I think whe your expecting an attack and came out of nowere with a massive attack its clearly that he wasn't ready to deflect it Frieza did not power up more than 50% it was never mention I think,he just used he's 50% powers wisely not just toying around wit Goku(I was late to join the party here :lol: )
Everything seems to suggest that 50% Freeza would have died.
Goku coming to the conclusion that 50% wasn't a bluff. Insinuating 50% Freeza could not have blocked it.
Freeza stating he almost died.
Edited by Raiken, May 30 2013, 08:02 PM.
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SSJ
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lunar2
May 30 2013, 07:51 PM
SuperSaiyan3
May 30 2013, 07:30 PM
There is still the fact that a KHH has amp, whether it is small or large, it is there. Frieza had enough of a difference to confidently stop the attack with one arm.
actually no, that is not a fact. the KHH has only been shown to have an amp at all when charged.
Who says? If Goku can amp his own power by multifolds without powering up, why shouldn't he be able to do the same wi a ki attack?
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

Freeza never stated that he nearly died. That was after the Genki Dama.

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P4.4, P6.2-3
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Freeza: “Th-that was dangerous…Wh-why did he have such stupendous power?...Damn Saiyan! That hurt just now…IT HURT!”
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Raiken
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Drew
May 30 2013, 08:09 PM
Freeza never stated that he nearly died. That was after the Genki Dama.

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P4.4, P6.2-3
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Freeza: “Th-that was dangerous…Wh-why did he have such stupendous power?...Damn Saiyan! That hurt just now…IT HURT!”
Spoiler: click to toggle
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

There's only two instances where Freeza mentions his power increasing from 50%, that 70% he used to attack SSJ Goku and his 100% power. He also speaks of Freeza using 50% of his power in the present tense.

"He really is only using half his power..."

instead of saying

"He really was using on half his power..."

@ Raiken, you're using fan translations for the manga right now, those won't fly.
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Raiken
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 08:20 PM
There's only two instances where Freeza mentions his power increasing from 50%, that 70% he used to attack SSJ Goku and his 100% power. He also speaks of Freeza using 50% of his power in the present tense.

"He really is only using half his power..."

instead of saying

"He really was using on half his power..."

@ Raiken, you're using fan translations for the manga right now, those won't fly.
How would he know 50% wasn't his maximum, if 50% could block it?

(Where the hell am I meant to get proper Translations. And fan translations are usually close enough.,)
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15488

There ya go
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