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ssj only needs to be 25 @ frieza
Topic Started: May 30 2013, 05:47 PM (3,479 Views)
lunar2
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so, conventional wisdom is that ssj needs to be greater than 40x for goku vs. frieza, because kkx20 goku was = 50% frieza. however, the multiple uses of kkx10, as well as the beating he was taking from frieza, would have drastically decreased his base power.

now, my theory is that 505 frieza is actually much closer to fp kkx10 goku. although goku was not able to fight back against frieza, he was surviving the attacks that were meant to kill him, something frieza commented on. this leads me to believe that frieza had maybe a 15% adavantage against kkx10 goku, at least at first.

goku 1

kkx10 goku 10

50% frieza 11.5

then goku goes to kaioken x20, which multiplies his remaining power by 20, bringing him back up equal to frieza.

kkx20 goku 11-12

now if 50% frieza is 11.5, then 100% frieza is 23. if ssj goku is 25, then at the beginning of the fight he has an 8% advantage, which is reflected in the fight. except when goku is distracted, he has a clear edge, but frieza is initially holding his own, until his ki weighted body gets worn down from exertion and his injuries.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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+ Majin Vegeta
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The resident GT fan!

Well it makes sense Goku was equal opto Frieza at Kaioken 20x Ian's like you said he could survive attacks that suppose to make him to pieces(unless Frieza was toying around with him that is)however there's no big difference in the power of Frieza and Goku but mostly his stamina made him the loser I think
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Raiken
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It could be that each level of Kaioken is an add-on to the Base Kaioken boost. And goes up in markers of 50%. Rather than each level being a direct multiplication of Base Power.

E:G: Kaioken is 50% power increase.
Kaioken x2: is a 100% power increase.
Kaioken x3: is a 150% power increase. Rather than a 200% increase.

Which would mean Kaioken x10 = 5x Base. And Kaioken x20 = 10x Base.
Edited by Raiken, May 30 2013, 06:05 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

You'd pretty much need 50x for Goku's battle against Freeza.

Freeza was able to pretty much manhandle even KK20 Goku so for the sake of things we'll give Freeza a 1.2x advantage.

Goku Base: 10

Goku KK10: 100

Goku: KK20: 200

50% Freeza: 240

100% Freeza: 480

SSJ Goku: 500

It works out pretty darn well in the end really.
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Raiken
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 06:30 PM
You'd pretty much need 50x for Goku's battle against Freeza.

Freeza was able to pretty much manhandle even KK20 Goku so for the sake of things we'll give Freeza a 1.2x advantage.

Goku Base: 10

Goku KK10: 100

Goku: KK20: 200

50% Freeza: 240

100% Freeza: 480

SSJ Goku: 500

It works out pretty darn well in the end really.
I'm one of the people that use Akira's believed x10 for SSJ.
Instead of the Databooks x50.

Which probably explains the differences we have.

So yeah: In my oppnion:

Goku Base: 10

Goku KK10: 50 "Maintained / Considerable Strain"

Goku KK20: 100 "Short Burst / Massive Strain"

SSJ Goku: 100 "Maintained / Minimal Strain"
Edited by Raiken, May 30 2013, 06:40 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

You have to use 50x for against Freeza. 10x may work the other times, but your getting into contradiction with 10x against Freeza. Infact if you use anything lower than X48, Goku will end up being weaker than Freeza.
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SurRealistic
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Jonny Rivers

I agree with Brofist, it has to be x50 in the Frieza fight.

Its simple, if a x20 multiplier did very little to 50% Frieza, than what could a x25 do againtst 100% Frieza?
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lunar2
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 06:41 PM
You have to use 50x for against Freeza. 10x may work the other times, but your getting into contradiction with 10x against Freeza. Infact if you use anything lower than X48, Goku will end up being weaker than Freeza.


no. even if you have kkx20 goku 20x base goku's full power, then ssj only needs to be 40x. kkx20 goku was about equal to 50% frieza.

DopeMan
May 30 2013, 06:56 PM
I agree with Brofist, it has to be x50 in the Frieza fight.

Its simple, if a x20 multiplier did very little to 50% Frieza, than what could a x25 do againtst 100% Frieza?


20x goku was too fast for frieza to dodge, and the KHH seriously burned frieza's hand. the only issue was the goku can only use that level of kaioken for one short burst.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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SSJ
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You can't seriously think that 100% Frieza couldn't handle the Kamehameha Goku shot. Frieza was only 50% and wasn't stated to power up to block it. He may or may not have used energy to block it, but regardless he tanked it. His hand hurt, but it did nothing to him. There is a massive difference there.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

KK20 Goku wasn't anywhere near 50% Freeza. Freeza took his KHH and blocked it with one hand, leaving Goku shocked and that's without giving Goku the KHH amp along top of the KK20. Otherwise not even a 50x SSJ would've gotten the job done.
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SSJ
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There's a reason why Goku had to use the spirit bomb against 50% Frieza. He knew he had no chance with Kaioken x20.
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SurRealistic
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lunar2
May 30 2013, 07:04 PM
20x goku was too fast for frieza to dodge, and the KHH seriously burned frieza's hand. the only issue was the goku can only use that level of kaioken for one short burst.
Yes... Kaioken x20 Kamehameha only BURNED 50% Frieza's HAND, but when Goku turned SSJ, Frieza had to go 100%......
Edited by SurRealistic, May 30 2013, 07:14 PM.
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lunar2
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SuperSaiyan3
May 30 2013, 07:06 PM
You can't seriously think that 100% Frieza couldn't handle the Kamehameha Goku shot. Frieza was only 50% and wasn't stated to power up to block it. He may or may not have used energy to block it, but regardless he tanked it. His hand hurt, but it did nothing to him. There is a massive difference there.
if you had actually read the OP, you would have seen where i stated goku was not at full power when he used the kkx20. he'd already used the kkx10 more than once, and had been getting beaten on by frieza and surviving.

fp kkx20 goku vs. 100% frieza would go exactly like kkx10 goku went against 50% frieza. he would be able to survive frieza's attacks, but he wouldn't be able to fight back.

@brofist that wasn't a charged kamehameha, like what was used against raditz or vegeta. there's no reason to assume there is any amplification on it at all. the khh burned frieza's hand, showing that it was about as powerful as frieza. since it came from goku, who was shown to be about as fast as frieza, and there was no charge time on it, then worn down kkx20 goku ~ 50% frieza. so fp kkx20 goku >> 50% frieza.

@spirit bomb. goku was worn out by the kkx20. it was too much for him.

some manga quotes for you skeptics.

Chapter: 313 (DBZ 119), P8.1
Goku: "I ain't got no choice but to raise the K... Kaio-Ken up to twenty-fold... Though my bo... body might not be able to take it... B... but if he really is at 50 percent now, like he says he is, then there ain't nothing at all I can do..."

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P3.1-2
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Kuririn: “Un-unbelievable…Goku’s Kamehameha just now ought to have had outrageous power…So why did Freeza take hardly any damage…!?”
Gohan: “Fa-father’s ki has fallen a lot…”

goku's ki had fallen a lot, which is why frieza wasn't obliterated. damn, it's even stated in the manga goku wasn't full power.

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P4.4, P6.2-3
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Freeza: “Th-that was dangerous…Wh-why did he have such stupendous power?...Damn Saiyan! That hurt just now…IT HURT!”

frieza apparently thought the KHH was something serious.

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P10.1-3
Freeza: “Where’s the vigor you had before? Have you finally used up all your power?”
Goku: “M-my power really is disappearing a whole lot…Like I thought, the 20-fold Kaio-Ken is…no good…”

and this is why goku didn't keep it up. the kkx20 was too much for him to handle.
Edited by lunar2, May 30 2013, 07:21 PM.
list of canon sources:

the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga.

list of non canon sources:

everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality.

for those that blindly follow word of god
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* Yu Narukami
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Izanagi!

But then you're just pulling numbers out of nowhere. How much did Goku weaken by? Did he go from 3,000,000 to 2,999,999?
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

It's an assumption to say Goku's power dropped during that time. especially when we know that people even when tired or strained can still pick out their full power such as 100% Freeza and SSj2 Kid Gohan. Even more so if you really think Freeza blocking Goku's KHH with one hand and getting nothing short of a few burn marks means Goku's equal to him then there's nothing I can help you with.

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