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How much stronger is perfect cell than frieza at 100%
Topic Started: May 26 2013, 02:00 PM (9,548 Views)
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There's nothing that states SSj is 50x Base. It only says that for Goku's initial transformation. For all we know, his SSj could either be 50x, or simply add 147,000,000 Battle Power points on to his resting state.

You're going to have to go through a heck of a lot of baseless assumptions to make an additive work. Especially when AT remarks that the SSJ transformation is a multiplier. He uses 10x against Freeza which is just plain wrong, but he still notes it as a multiplier.

"At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

If Goku was 1 and SSJ added 9, he would be "ten times what he had been up until then". AT does not support, nor contradict a multiplier system [within this quote]. The same can be said for an additive system.
Edited by Vertical, May 30 2013, 09:27 PM.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

He literally calls it a multiplier. You have no way to make an additive work without baseless assumptions. You'd make a constant change of baseless assumptions that lead to the so called SSJ additive increase being changed constantly and always having to be increased to keep up but you also would have to make a baseless assumption that different people have different additives.

Try making the additive from the Freeza/Cell arc work for Goten and Trunks. You can't, it would never work. I've been through this before, using an additive can only be done through sheer baseless assumptions with nothing to back it up. No quotes, no statements, just pure opinion.

And when AT directly states it as a multiplier, than while we may need to change up that direct multiplier to make it work, it's still a multiplier. I mean he doesn't call the KKX20 "Base Goku at 10+190) Because it's no longer x20 anymore.

Because now if you have Goku Base 20:

KK20=400, as you can see adding 190 to base 20 won't give you that 400.
Edited by EMIYA, May 30 2013, 09:35 PM.
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Aman741
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The Prince of All Saiyans/Debaters.

I think Cell is stronger than Frieza...

x times the planet Frieza blowed up/conquered.
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"Here comes the Saiyan Prince."
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 09:34 PM
He literally calls it a multiplier.
Although I am not against SSJ being a multiplier (I actually support the idea), AT never once states SSJ is a multiplier. Something being "ten times what [it] had been" in a single particular instance is not the same as it always being "ten times what [it] had been".

The general consensus is that Goku is required to be roughly fifty times stronger than he had been to compete with Freeza, to which I agree... but that large an increase is not required for the rest of the series and actually contradicted depending on your interpretation of battle power gaps, Gero's absorption plan, and Gotenks placements. How people deal with this when creating their systems is up to them [as long as it adheres to their beliefs] because the actual answer does not exist.

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Try making the additive from the Freeza/Cell arc work for Goten and Trunks. You can't, it would never work. I've been through this before, using an additive can only be done through sheer baseless assumptions with nothing to back it up. No quotes, no statements, just pure opinion.
A well constructed addition system is heavily reliant on two key beliefs:
- FPSSJ/MSSJ =/= SSJ in terms of power
- the existence of certain limits

Your own personal interpretation of certain aspects of the manga may cause you to disagree with the two points above but that does not make them incorrect. As long as the person has valid reasons for their system and the beliefs they have based it upon, I see no reason to dismiss them.

Well thought out and constructed multiplier systems, addition systems, even tier systems can all work depending on your own personal [non-contradictory] view of the content.

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And when AT directly states it as a multiplier, than while we may need to change up that direct multiplier to make it work, it's still a multiplier. I mean he doesn't call the KKX20 "Base Goku at 10+190) Because it's no longer x20 anymore.

Because now if you have Goku Base 20:

KK20=400, as you can see adding 190 to base 20 won't give you that 400.
Again, AT never states that SSJ is a multiplier. Also, we're not discussing Kaioken [which was clearly stated and shown to be a multiplier].
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

Times=Multiplier. When you times something, you multiply it. Thus the SSj transformation is a multiplier.
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"As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then."

He = Goku; it just means that at that time, Goku's Super Saiyan boost resulted in his power being 10x greater than his base power. Could be a +900 boost, while he was 100: 100+900 = 1000 = 100*10. Not saying I'd go by that and I do think that's stretching it, though.

OT: In my last list, I had Perfect Cell around 775x stronger than Freeza or so.
Edited by Kyouks, May 31 2013, 12:13 AM.
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Brofist
May 30 2013, 11:50 PM
Times=Multiplier. When you times something, you multiply it. Thus the SSj transformation is a multiplier.
AT is describing the result of a single particular instance, not the process of every possible instance.

For example: I have 3 eggs. Something happens and now I have 6 eggs. I can say that I now have two times the eggs I previously had... but in saying so I do not imply that I have multiplied the eggs... in actuality I am attempting to describe the resulting situation in the simplest fashion.


AT's quote regarding SSJ does not imply, nor disregard a multiplier system.

AT's quote regarding SSJ does not imply, nor disregard a addition system.

AT's quote regarding SSJ does not imply, nor disregard a tier system.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

May I ask why Goku would get a clearly stated multiplier for his SSJ and another person would get an additive?
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Brofist
May 31 2013, 12:19 AM
May I ask why Goku would get a clearly stated multiplier for his SSJ and another person would get an additive?
There is no such "clearly stated multiplier". AT does not state that SSJ is a multiplier.

...I feel like there's some sort of communication barrier here.
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EMIYA
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"I am the bone of my sword."

AT states that the that SSJ transformation at the time when he drew SSJ Goku was a 10 times increase, that's a multiplier. We know 10x won't work but hopefully were not here to argue that. What makes this any different than Vegeta's transformation, Gohan's transformation, Goten's transformation, Trunks' Transformation, etc. Is it not logical to say that if Goku gets a multiplier, the others too should get multipliers? Otherwise the SSj transformation is just a gamble.

Goku gets the 50x increase and then Vegeta gets the 100+ increase, kind of unfair don't you think? Makes no sense to have it so random like that.
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Brofist
May 31 2013, 12:41 AM
AT states that the that SSJ transformation at the time when he drew SSJ Goku was a 10 times increase, that's a multiplier.
This is the issue. AT does not state [or even imply] that SSJ is a multiplier. He does not state that SSJ is a "ten times increase".

Describing a result =/= describing a process

I had thought the egg analogy was pretty clear.
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We know 10x won't work but hopefully were not here to argue that.
You're right; I'm not here to discuss that particular aspect of the quote.
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Is it not logical to say that if Goku gets a multiplier, the others too should get multipliers? Otherwise the SSj transformation is just a gamble.
I agree; all characters [pure-bloods, hybrids, fusions, non-Goku's] should follow the same SSJ formula/system .
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* Ketchup Revenge
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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!"

Just to toss in my two cents, I don't believe in SSj multipliers at all.
Three reasons to this:

- SSj comes from latent ki, which is different amount for everyone. Goku's, very well, could be a 10x or 50x increase, but that doesn't mean that everyone's is the same or even a multiplier at all.
- If SSj is truly a multiplier, than the only way to increase the PL would be to train in base (a chain reaction would occur). However, we almost always see Super Saiyans training in Super Saiyan, suggesting that they can increase by training in SSj.
-We already know that Vegeta's claim was true about "Saiyans not being reduced to numbers". Their power growth is not linear, as evidenced by Gero's inability to predict Goku's increases. A multiplier is a linear interval, and therefore goes against everything that we know about Saiyan power growth.

These three points throw a monkey wrench into the whole SSj multiplier argument.

But for power level argument sake, I can understand why consistent multipliers would make it much easier to make lists, which I avoid like the plague because few people can make agreeable and logical ones as far as I'm concerned.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, May 31 2013, 01:29 PM.
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...

ithink having *5000 and more as a gap is ridiculous
Vegeta could stomp dodoria with a 1.2 gap ..
Furthermore if cell is more than *5000 times stronger than frieza that would mean that MSSJ gohan is also *3500 times stronger than frieza ..
hmmm Dont forget that frieza was somewhere *10 times stronger than Nail ....and he beat the crap outta him
In my opinion Cell's max is *10times stonger than frieza's ....
REASON:it is not necessary to create such a big gaps,being 10 times stronger means simple roflstomp....
Edited by Pointer, May 31 2013, 07:44 AM.

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agree with abyss
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* Ketchup Revenge
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Abyss
May 31 2013, 07:40 AM
ithink having *5000 and more as a gap is ridiculous
Vegeta could stomp dodoria with a 1.2 gap ..
Furthermore if cell is more than *5000 times stronger than frieza that would mean that MSSJ gohan is also *3500 times stronger than frieza ..
hmmm Dont forget that frieza was somewhere *10 times stronger than Nail ....and he beat the crap outta him
In my opinion Cell's max is *10times stonger than frieza's ....
REASON:it is not necessary to create such a big gaps,being 10 times stronger means simple roflstomp....
I completely agree with you, and the only reason why people say this stuff is because of the theory of SSj multipliers, and they use that as the basis for PL lists. There really is no reason to have these huge gaps between PLs because even with a 20% difference between fighters, the stronger one looks like they have a massive advantage.

We've also witnessed the destructive difference in only 1 million units of ki. To me, it simply doesn't look like Cell is in the tens of billions.
Edited by Ketchup Revenge, May 31 2013, 01:28 PM.
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