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Frieza vs base saiyans; Not a troll topic
Topic Started: May 12 2013, 09:10 PM (2,240 Views)
Sjk8 May 12 2013, 09:10 PM Post #1
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史上最強の孫悟空

 According to BoG, base saiyans at this point of the show wouldn't be able to take down 100% Frieza.
Personally, this thing just makes me facedesk, but I see, generally, lots of people taking this "info" as a God's word, practically disregarding what the manga has implied for years.
They think the manga isn't clear about the base saiyans placement while, personally, I believe totally the opposite: for example, how can base Goku at this point being weaker than 100% Frieza when, in the Cell arc, only 50% of his Mssj made Super Vegeta looks like nothing? (The same Vegeta who, according to mirai Trunks, could have taken Semi Cell as a mere Ssj).

So, what do you guys think? Am I alone in this "battle"?
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Saberoph May 12 2013, 09:18 PM Post #2
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 If that's true, then I'll be using the same evidence argument as I use for the Anime, but this time for the Manga.

I haven't seen the Movie yet, but I keep hearing the same thing, and it's seems like a fail logic.
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IllogicalGlory May 12 2013, 09:18 PM Post #3
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Furious

 Screw BoG.

Ultimate Gohan<<SSJ2 Vegeta?? what the HFIL is that? It can't be taken as canon because Toriyama was involved in it. He can't even remember what an SSJ3 is, let alone whether the base saiyans are stronger than Frieza.

Obviously the base saiyans are higher than Frieza; remember when Goten and Trunks took on Android 18 in base?
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+ Clearin May 12 2013, 09:20 PM Post #4
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 Base Kid Trunks (Second weakest base Saiyan in the Buu saga) managed to fight relatively well with #18 using only his arms and restricted vision.

So Goku, whom was already stronger than Trunks, after 5 years of training isn't stronger than Freeza? Yeeeah no.

I could also go into the whole Base Vegeta > Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Freeza argument.
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+ Majin Vegeta May 12 2013, 09:21 PM Post #5
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The resident GT fan!

 No you're not alone there's no way we would even think of that if the movie didn't said so,I don't agree with this Vegeta as a Ssj taking on semi perfect Cell which has Android 17s powers and his owns which are above 17s,the Ssj multiplier making Vegeta 50x times weaker but still he could hold his own against Frieza not mentioning the 7 years of Vegetas training,and of course Supreme kai could ones shot Frieza and the Kai was afraid of Pui-Pui which Vegeta completly humiliates easily i think that's a fact as well
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+ Pyrus May 12 2013, 09:29 PM Post #6
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 I bet a large portion of Kanzenshuu is still rejoicing over that one detail.

It doesn't hold up to me, but oh well. The movie's canonicity is still in question anyway.
Edited by Pyrus, May 12 2013, 09:29 PM.
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Saberoph May 12 2013, 09:29 PM Post #7
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 http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8733635&t=8413253

Imagine this argument but with stated Manga facts Vs. BOG. Heh, I'm sure the Manga would win this, which would mean Base Saiyans>Frieza.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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Sjk8 May 12 2013, 09:32 PM Post #8
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Saberoph
May 12 2013, 09:18 PM
If that's true, then I'll be using the same evidence argument as I use for the Anime, but this time for the Manga.

I haven't seen the Movie yet, but I keep hearing the same thing, and it's seems like a fail logic.


As evidence, are you referring at Yakon, Kaioshin and such arguments, right?

IllogicalGlory
May 12 2013, 09:18 PM
Screw BoG.

Ultimate Gohan<<SSJ2 Vegeta?? what the HFIL is that? It can't be taken as canon because Toriyama was involved in it. He can't even remember what an SSJ3 is, let alone whether the base saiyans are stronger than Frieza.

Obviously the base saiyans are higher than Frieza; remember when Goten and Trunks took on Android 18 in base?


Agreed.
About Ssj2 Vegeta, by the way, they said he became for a while stronger than Ssj3 Goku, Gohan wasn't mentioned, if I'm not wrong.
Despite that, actually it's even worse, since BoG Ultimate Gohan was a simple Ssj Gohan repainted; they forgot about the existence of U.Gohan, and fans had to remind them back: that's why Birusu speaks about Goku's and Vegeta's potentials, makes positive comments on Gotenks but doesn't give a s*** about Gohan.
Personally, what a shame.

PS: lol, HFIL. TFS ftw.

Clearin
May 12 2013, 09:20 PM
Base Kid Trunks (Second weakest base Saiyan in the Buu saga) managed to fight relatively well with #18 using only his arms and restricted vision.

So Goku, whom was already stronger than Trunks, after 5 years of training isn't stronger than Freeza? Yeeeah no.

I could also go into the whole Base Vegeta > Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Freeza argument.


I agree with you about everything but Pui Pui: I think Kaioshin was worried for Vegeta's sake (he understimated him).
But with Yakon, this point is truth and proven.

Vegeta8558
May 12 2013, 09:21 PM
No you're not alone there's no way we would even think of that if the movie didn't said so,I don't agree with this Vegeta as a Ssj taking on semi perfect Cell which has Android 17s powers and his owns which are above 17s,the Ssj multiplier making Vegeta 50x times weaker but still he could hold his own against Frieza not mentioning the 7 years of Vegetas training,and of course Supreme kai could ones shot Frieza and the Kai was afraid of Pui-Pui which Vegeta completly humiliates easily i think that's a fact as well


Well, Vegeta wouldn't have had the power for win the fight, but Trunks was shocked about the fact he was already going to transform, implying, to me, that Vegeta could have still hold his own for a while against Cell.
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Saberoph May 12 2013, 09:35 PM Post #9
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 I mean everything Post Frieza arc, everything past that arc shows that a Saiyans Base increases along with SS... so, for BOG to make sense, you would have to dismiss everything Post Frieza, but then you have to argue why there's levels beyond SS, so right there BOG is disproven.
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
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+ Pyrus May 12 2013, 09:39 PM Post #10
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 It's like the producers cherry-picked what they wanted to use and ignore from the Boo arc.
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IllogicalGlory May 12 2013, 09:41 PM Post #11
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Furious
Quote:
 
About Ssj2 Vegeta, by the way, they said he became for a while stronger than Ssj3 Goku, Gohan wasn't mentioned, if I'm not wrong.
SSJ2 Vegeta did a lot better against Bills, Gohan just got his head smashed against Mr. Buu. Instantly.
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Sjk8 May 12 2013, 09:46 PM Post #12
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Darth Pyrus
May 12 2013, 09:29 PM
I bet a large portion of Kanzenshuu is still rejoicing over that one detail.

It doesn't hold up to me, but oh well. The movie's canonicity is still in question anyway.


Personally, I think BoG is canon, but also full of incongruences, and people shouldn't reject the manga because of this movie.

Anyway, it has been a while KP, is everything ok? ^_^

Saberoph
May 12 2013, 09:35 PM
I mean everything Post Frieza arc, everything past that arc shows that a Saiyans Base increases along with SS... so, for BOG to make sense, you would have to dismiss everything Post Frieza, but then you have to argue why there's levels beyond SS, so right there BOG is disproven.


I think people should have the intelligence to recognize what is good and what is wrong.
I mean, I probably can accept that Awfully Enraged Ssj2 Vegeta can become stronger than Ssj3 Goku for a while, thanks to a huge rage-boost, because it's something new that never happened before; but about base saiyans and Ultimate Gohan, the manga has shown lots of facts about their placement that can't be suddenly ignored.
Edited by Sjk8, May 12 2013, 10:01 PM.
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Sjk8 May 12 2013, 09:55 PM Post #13
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IllogicalGlory
May 12 2013, 09:41 PM
Quote:
 
About Ssj2 Vegeta, by the way, they said he became for a while stronger than Ssj3 Goku, Gohan wasn't mentioned, if I'm not wrong.
SSJ2 Vegeta did a lot better against Bills, Gohan just got his head smashed against Mr. Buu. Instantly.


Eh, I know.
It all comes back again to the fact that this Gohan is Ultimate in his aspect, but not in actual substance, since it was a simple hair repainting.

I swear, this fact really makes me shudder.
Edited by Sjk8, May 12 2013, 09:59 PM.
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Saberoph May 12 2013, 09:55 PM Post #14
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 I agree, I think the Base Saiyans placement is dumb, and isn't possible due to a whole book the same writer wrote showing their placing.

I can also buy the Rage Boast, because I believe an Enraged SS2 Boo Arc Gohan would have been in the same boat.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
Q&A With Me.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8408853/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8543860/1/
My Broli Idea.
http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8716209&t=8374201
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8561069/1/

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IllogicalGlory May 12 2013, 10:08 PM Post #15
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Furious
Saberoph
May 12 2013, 09:55 PM
I can also buy the Rage Boast, because I believe an Enraged SS2 Boo Arc Gohan would have been in the same boat.
The problem is that Gohan is the only one who's been shown to have a rage boost (of that caliber), Vegeta was as angry as could be when he fought 4th form Frieza, but he was still beaten down all the same.
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