Alex KloonBoss

Apr 26 2013, 04:07 PM

The boys had their mask and clothes on. Which its also stated by themselves. You're missing the fact that 18 didn't even damage them at all.

I just showed you a example of it. I can bring up the point of Goku being equal to Yakon at base , while Kaioshin (who states to be able to one-shot Frieza) is so afraid of him , and plans to take on him as a group instead of individual.

Super Gohan

Apr 26 2013, 04:36 PM

Alex KloonBoss

Apr 26 2013, 04:07 PM

The boys had their mask and clothes on. Which its also stated by themselves. You're missing the fact that 18 didn't even damage them at all.

I just showed you a example of it. I can bring up the point of Goku being equal to Yakon at base , while Kaioshin (who states to be able to one-shot Frieza) is so afraid of him , and plans to take on him as a group instead of individual.

It is not an accurate representation of the individual's true power because the tournament setting restricts them from fighting to their full potential.

As far as #18 is aware of, Mighty Mask is just an odd human. She wouldn't risk killing him in front of everyone by using her full strength. But it appears you and others just fail to recognize the circumstances surrounding these battles. If you're simply judging by a who's-stronger-than-who basis, then you're hardly looking at it from a complete perspective.

So you're basing one controversial viewpoint on another controversial viewpoint?

Is that all?

Super Gohan

Apr 26 2013, 04:36 PM

Alex KloonBoss

Apr 26 2013, 04:07 PM

The boys had their mask and clothes on. Which its also stated by themselves. You're missing the fact that 18 didn't even damage them at all.

I just showed you a example of it. I can bring up the point of Goku being equal to Yakon at base , while Kaioshin (who states to be able to one-shot Frieza) is so afraid of him , and plans to take on him as a group instead of individual.

It is not an accurate representation of the individual's true power because the tournament setting restricts them from fighting to their full potential.

As far as #18 is aware of, Mighty Mask is just an odd human. She wouldn't risk killing him in front of everyone by using her full strength. But it appears you and others just fail to recognize the circumstances surrounding these battles. If you're simply judging by a who's-stronger-than-who basis, then you're hardly looking at it from a complete perspective.

So you're basing one controversial viewpoint on another controversial viewpoint?

Is that all?

Clearin

Apr 26 2013, 04:42 PM

So you go with the "#18 wasn't using her full power" option?

Well then I want you to explain two things:
A) How did #18 know exactly how much power to use? In your opinion the base kids may be below 100% Freeza but they're still far, far stronger than your average human. Yet somehow #18 used just enough power to not be weak enough that the kids can tank or block her easily, yet not strong enough that one hit would knock them out? Do you know how unlikely that is? We're talking about a power scale that ranges from regular human to Android 18 and she just happened to use the perfect amount of power right off the bat?

B) Even in the extremely unlikely case above, why wouldn't she just use a little more power and knock them out of the ring? She would be an idiot to keep holding back to the point Trunks can still block her hits.

I personally refuse to believe she was holding back due to these questions.

Super Gohan

Apr 25 2013, 11:49 PM

lunar2

Apr 25 2013, 10:10 PM

@super gohan. yeah, it is amazing that anyone can kill frieza in one blow. goku recognizes that that is a tremendous feat of power. that doesn't mean that goku himself couldn't do it.

goku > vegeta > trunks = #18 > ssj vegeta (androids) > ssj goku (namek) > frieza.

goku could do the same thing, in base, without powering up. doesn't make it any less of an impressive feat in the absolute sense.

The context of the conversation goes against that idea.

Kaioshin makes the remark as a rebuttal to Vegeta criticizing Buu's destructive capabilities as nothing special from what a Saiyan could do. The counter statement is clearly made as a contrast; showing what a normal Saiyan couldn't do, which their reaction is there to emphasize.

lunar2

Apr 26 2013, 05:17 PM

yes, that is something normal saiyans would not be able to do. goku and vegeta are not normal saiyans. it was shown repeatedly that kaioshin does not know the caliber of fighters he is dealing with. the very fact that he used frieza as his example proves that. frieza, while etremely strong in the absolute sense, is childs play to any of the saiyans at this point. even base goten or trunks would be more than a match for #18 in a fair fight.

lunar2

Apr 26 2013, 08:55 PM

goku vs. yakon doesn't actually prove anything but a tiny ssj boost though. now, a tiny ssj boost implies a large base power, but people will ignore everything they don't want to admit.

lunar2

Apr 26 2013, 06:31 PM

kaioshin doesn't know that goku doesn't know his heritage. and his statement was directed at vegeta, anyway. goku is the one that reacted because he is more expressive than vegeta. and you can't claim author intent when you don't know author intent. at this point in the story, we are seeing base saiyans take on opponents that would do exactly what kaishin described, killing frieza in one blow. or do you think #18 couldn't do that? kaioshin's statement isn't evidence that the base saiyans can't do that to frieza, because the base saiyans are shown to be omore powerful than someone who can do that to frieza.

Alex KloonBoss

Apr 26 2013, 08:37 PM

I like how "Super" Gohan ignores the Goku vs Yakon fight.

Super Gohan

Apr 26 2013, 09:43 PM

lunar2

Apr 26 2013, 06:31 PM

kaioshin doesn't know that goku doesn't know his heritage. and his statement was directed at vegeta, anyway. goku is the one that reacted because he is more expressive than vegeta. and you can't claim author intent when you don't know author intent. at this point in the story, we are seeing base saiyans take on opponents that would do exactly what kaishin described, killing frieza in one blow. or do you think #18 couldn't do that? kaioshin's statement isn't evidence that the base saiyans can't do that to frieza, because the base saiyans are shown to be omore powerful than someone who can do that to frieza.

In a similar occurrence Goku is shown to react the opposite way:

Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P10.1-5
Context: Elder Kaioshin explains his ‘ability’
Elder Kaioshin: “With my psychic powers, I can take the hidden power which anyone has, no matter how amazing a master they may be, and draw it wa~~ay, wa~~ay out above their limits. Ehehehehe…Have you ever heard of an ability like that?”
Kaioshin and Kibito: “Oooh!”
Goku: “Wh-what?...Ain’t that the kind of ability you hear about fairly often?”
Elder Kaioshin: “Wh-what are you talking about…?! Above their limits! Above! There de~~efinitely isn’t anyone else that incredible! [ ] Hey, you over there, you were the one who pulled the sword out, right? Come over here a little. If someone could pull that sword out and swing it around, then once I get through with them they’ll de~~efinitely be able to become the best in the universe.”

For me the author's intent couldn't be any more transparent. Goku could already defeat Freeza in a single blow as a Super Saiyan; his reaction indicates he cannot achieve that tier of power without transforming.

Alex KloonBoss

Apr 26 2013, 08:37 PM

I like how "Super" Gohan ignores the Goku vs Yakon fight.

Yakon is not confirmed to be stronger than Freeza, and you did not provide proof for that either.

So should I assume you presented all your evidence then?

lunar2

Apr 26 2013, 09:53 PM

goku's response there was because old kai's ability is very common. korin's water can do it. guru can do it. it can be done through training. babidi can do it. if you want to include the daiz, then ssj3 is the same thing. potential releases are not uncommon. people who can kill frieza in one blow are uncommon. what old kai was talking about was not an impressive ability, even in an absolute sense.