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Gohan against Rildo
Topic Started: Apr 21 2013, 11:42 PM (2,394 Views)
Saberoph
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That would imply that Base Vegeta>Base Kakarrot end of Baby arc, but nothing is stated or imply to even suggest that.

If Vegeta isn't implied to keep his Boast, then the same goes for Gohan.

With that much of a Boast, it would have been stated.

But, let's go with your theory, Baby SS Gohan was a great deal weaker than Base Kakarrot, who Base Rild was extremely close to, I don't see Gohan gaining that kind of an increase in 2 years.

That would mean this chart.

Baby arc:
Base Kakarrot>>Baby SS Gohan. This would be at minimum, since Kakarrot knocked back Gohan's blast without trying with his back turned.

Base Kakarrot Baby Arc=Base Gohan Super 17 arc.

I really don't see that kind of an increase, with Baby SS Gohan already being weaker than SS Vegeta, who was weaker than Kakarrot.
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Kblo247
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Professor Gohan
Apr 22 2013, 12:51 AM
I'm saying Gohan > Vegeta because that's how everything started out. Which are closer events to Goku fighting Rildo.

Midway:

Episode 7
Context: Pan's reply to the Village Elder questioning the possibility of Zunama being defeated
Pan: It's okay! On our planet, Grandpa and Trunks are the first and second strongest people there are. And, although I hate to say it, I'm number three. Right?
Trunks: Well...you may be giving me too much credit by saying I'm second. After all, there's Gohan-san, and Dad, not to mention Piccolo-san...

Wouldn't Vegeta have been mentioned first?

He doesn't pass Gohan until the Baby arc. Gohan should be stronger than everyone before then.

When Goku fights Rildo, he's stronger than Gohan. Ok. But Gohan got a boost to be stronger than Rildo. He's still surpassed by Goku and Vegeta.
Could always say that because of the semantics that goes with him talking to Pan, he listed her dad first, thn his, and then Piccolo
Edited by Kblo247, Apr 22 2013, 05:46 AM.
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Professor Gohan
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You on my side, Kblo?
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Saberoph
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I'll agree with that, Pan has a bit of an attitude, and seems like the kind of person who would pop off at Trunks for not mentioning Gohan first.
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Kblo247
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Professor Gohan
Apr 22 2013, 05:51 AM
You on my side, Kblo?
I think the side that you're getting at is Ghoan has rose up to Buutenks-Buuhan tier in his base, when he meets Rildo. Both held two aces in their deck; Gohan had his ssj earns formations while Rildo had a transformation to use if the metal beam didnt work.

As for Vegeta, its clear that he's definitely the alpha makle left on earth while the others are in space IMO. I think it was Vegeta, Gohan - Piccolo, Goten, Buu, Bra, 18, Krillin, Tien, Yamcha ... The known hierarchy when the 3 saiyans left. We all know that they don't know how strong Uub is because Goku hadn't come back around and was presumably training off in the lookout which was hard to sense and could've been cloaked even better after the Super Buu fiasco.

But yeah I'm pretty sure he listed them in a way not to piss her off. Hes speaking to Pan, and in most cultures, you would normally list someone of relation to her that fits the stronger than him category first. She's a girl, its like insulting Satan before Videl knew he didn't kill Cell, she will bite your head off as she's a femal Saiyan with the DNA of Videl and Chi Chi ... Just think of the extended Toei filler of Ci Ci and Bulma arguing in the stands at the budokai over whose kid is better and then turning their attention to the fat woman boasting about hers.
Edited by Kblo247, Apr 23 2013, 12:48 AM.
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Saberoph
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Well, see...

I'm arguing Baby's boast wasn't permanent, and that Vegeta was stronger all along.

Do I believe SS Gohan could have beaten Base Rild? Yes, but I don't see Base Gohan stronger than Base rild. But I do see SS2 Gohan beating any form of Rild.
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Kblo247
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When baby touches down, he's the strongest Goten has faced and Goten goes super for him. We must remember the strongest Goten has faced is Super Buu and he thinks he can fight him as a ssj which can mean he's advanced to that level of strength beign Super Buu or Gotenks ssj3 after all these years which is big since he once was afraid to face Buu at the budokai, yet is still considered weak next to the other Saiyans, Piccolo, and Uub.

You don't have to have the baby boost itself be huge in retrospect to what Goku and Vegeta got. You should distinguish the two things that the boys in Gohan, Goten, and Trunks got from Baby powering them up some with what the full bloods got.

The fact is Goku and Vegeta got saiya boosts before the 17 saga. Pan, SSj Gohan, SSJ Trunks, and SSJ Goten gave Goku power. Bulla, Gohan, Goten, and Trunks gave Vegeta power. Goku got the equivalent of 4 supers powering him up as Pan js that strong, while Vegeta got 4 base saiyans powering him up. Their boost is naturally greater than any retained Baby boost. I know its written after the fact but BoG is written to fill in blanks and its said that Goku can remember and retain power given to him by a group of Saiyans, so Vegeta should be able to as well, and there's really no problem with them keeping the powers as it explains the battle with 17

I don't really have a problem with saying all the boosts were still permanently retained. I mean in the grand scheme it makes sense with Vegeta outclassing Majuub so easily.
Edited by Kblo247, Apr 23 2013, 02:37 AM.
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TheACE
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The Last GT Fighter

Short Version is at the bottom under **TL;DR. Actual explanation in text body.

Ok let me put this out here then. So by the Super Seventeen Arc, I kinda figured the power chain seems to go like this.

Tier 1
Super Android 17
Goku

Tier 2
Vegeta
Gohan
Majuub

Tier 3
Goten
Trunks

Tier 4
Pan
Android 18
Krillin

I'd edge Vegeta out slightly in power level, only on the merit of his durability. Gohan and Majuub have shown that they can dish it out, but they've always been more clever and fast than durable. Veggie is just great at taking a beating and that's why he lasted the longest in the fight.
Gohan's probably still great in base form, no doubt, everyone gasped when he dropped a Kamehameha that didn't work.
And Majuub was listed as being radically stronger than everyone up to Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Super Baby Final Form by the end of the Baby Arc. So he's still up there. But he's not nessecarily durable enough to last longer in a fight light Vegeta, and doesn't have the versatility or the magical talent that Majuub has, to actually put him above either of them. That and Majuub had a huge Potara/Namekian styled fusion boost to augment his training and strength. That and considering how long and badly Vegeta got beat down in his Baby Form implicates Vegeta probably got the best Zenkai and now maintains a power level that easily rivals Gohan and probably may threaten Goku quite soon.

With that in mind, I'll say the Zenkai from the Baby heal (Because the Tuffle eggs did do some serious damage and "virtually killed" their free will, that's a "near death" experience so the Super Holy Water can provide a Zenkai) did jump him up a bit. And I'm actually under the impression that the Baby thing actually made everyone but Vegeta a bit weaker. Reference Goku's fight with Ginyu before and after the body change. Same principle. "Can't Pilot the Gundam without being a newtype" so to speak yeah? Hence why Vegeta was only defeated when facing a Super Saiyan Baby Gohan & a Baby Goten two on one. Logically Gohan should have burried Vegeta one on one otherwise, but it didn't work out like that.

**TL;DR
Gohan was probably mid tier on the Z Team. But the Zenkai probably made him tough enough to keep up with Rildo easily. Rildo didn't transform, but even while in trouble, Gohan didn't either, so they were logically rather close.
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Saberoph
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I don't like using this, but oh well...

@Kblo247.

In the DB/Z/GT Universe, if it isn't implied or stated=it didn't happen.

And it isn't implied or stated.

Now, if this was some sort of Potential unlocking thing, then I wouldn't have a problem with it. But, Baby was a parasite... and it was clear that when he no longer had a hold over he had control of, his effects were gone too.

But again, even if the effects were permanent... in the Baby arc Full Power SS Vegeta was superior to SS Baby Gohan, who was nothing to Base Kakarrot, who Base Rild was very close to.

I still don't see this kind of increase happening, especially from what we see from the fight.
Edited by Saberoph, Apr 23 2013, 03:31 AM.
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Kblo247
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Pan is stronger than Goten and Trunks so your tiers are automatically flawed. She tanks ssj Goten without even being on guard. She's above the boys. And there's nothing that says they lost their powers either
Edited by Kblo247, Apr 23 2013, 05:50 AM.
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Saberoph
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That would mean Vegeta>Kakarrot. But the fact is that isn't implied.

It's still implied at end of Baby arc that Kakarrot is once again overall stronger.

Also, Kakarrot couldn't make that kind of gain in 1 to 2 years, Kakarrot would have to make one of the biggest gains in history for him to be overall stronger in the Hell Fighter arc.
Edited by Saberoph, Apr 23 2013, 05:54 AM.
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Kblo247
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Tat wouldn't mean Vegeta is greater than Goku. Vegeta would be inferior to Goku after the ssj boys and pan give him their energy. He wasnt even healed from the fight, but their energy shot him well over ape baby Vegeta. That just makes Goku stronger in each form because of the ssj energy he got in comparison to the base energy. He ssjs and pan isn't recharge him simply, they brought him above his limits much like the base Saiyans did Veggie

And pan is just outright over Trunks and Goten btw
Edited by Kblo247, Apr 23 2013, 07:59 AM.
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Baby's purpose was to control the strongest fighter,Vegeta think about it after Baby controls Vegetas body,he said when his finish his job(killed Goku)with him he will destroy Vegetas body,so obviously why didn't he killed Vegeta in the first place and go with Gohan instead of wasting his time on Vegeta,also Vegeta in his normal make Gohan to transformed into a Ssj,and then Gohan beats him,when Vegeta transforms he is clearly beating Gohan Ssj the blast fight Vegeta was putting more energy when he wanted to,Vegeta maxed out Gohan easily on there fight it took Baby Gohan and Goten to have a change but Vegeta was just toying with them and powered up enough so that he won't killed them,inside of Baby Gohan's body Baby said he needs the strongest of all(Vegeta)don't know what you think,I might even throw s*** stuff just my opinion😃
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Saberoph
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Yes it does, because that would put Vegeta's SS2 above SS3 Kakarrot, how do I know it was SS2? Because Vegeta's hair when he's infected by Baby, so Vegeta's Base would even be higher than SS2 Kakarrot. Also, if you're saying the effects didn't went away, then Vegeta would keep his Super Baby Vegeta 2 Power, but what happened? Vegeta reverts back to his Base. Also, if SS4 Kakartot's Surpassed Limits is only temporary, then the same rules would apply to everyone effected by Baby.
Edited by Saberoph, Apr 23 2013, 10:56 PM.
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Aman741
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The Prince of All Saiyans/Debaters.

Gohan, he did not train for the reason that Goku, Pan and Trunks left.

I think there was still a day left for them to train than rest, later get on the ship.
The people leaving the Earth was Goku, Goten and Trunks. Since Gohan didn't wanted to go, but for some reason they mentioned Gohan... (When Vegeta pulls Goten and Trunks's ear.) After that he would have went in the Time Chamber with either Goku or Goten-Trunks.

After fighting with Rildo, it is proven that his fighting technique and how quick he reacts went down. How hard he had to fight Rildo but Majuub only had to blast Rildo with 1 big ki ball.

The fact is that Goku SSJ4 beaten up Vegeta badly, which gave him the zenkai boost... While Gohan merely got hurt.
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