Piccolo (Buu Saga) vs Super Vegeta (ascended Super Saiyan) Cell games

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Piccolo (Buu Saga) vs Super Vegeta (ascended Super Saiyan) Cell games
Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2013, 07:33 PM (2,767 Views)
Captain Cadaver	Mar 31 2013, 06:36 PM Post #16
Absolute End of Century Conquerer Posts: 1,345 Group: Member Member #9,053 Joined: February 16, 2013 Favourite Anime Hokuto no Ken/Fist of the North Star Favourite Manga Hokuto no Ken/Fist of the North Star	mechasilver3000 Mar 31 2013, 03:20 PM Piccolo is fused with kami who was the god of earth, piccolo said that supreme kai was "in an other dimention" that's common way to say that somebody is stronger than you Kami is only a god by title, not by race. Piccolo was never shown being able to sense Kaioshin, and was either making huge overestimations or referring to Kaioshin's rank being in a different dimension.
	"Of this life, I have not a single regret!"


TheACE	Mar 31 2013, 06:49 PM Post #17
The Last GT Fighter Posts: 4,146 Group: Member Member #9,279 Joined: March 31, 2013 Favourite Anime DB/Z/GT, Digimon, YYH, Yugioh!, GetBackers What Browser do you use? Chrome, Safari, IE Favourite Manga Rave Master, FLCL, .hack//legendofthetwilight, Naruto II	Oh God I'm sick of Power Chains in Versus threads. Just a lazy way of doing power levels, and even power levels are still just a way to underestimate a character like they do in universe. If we're talking Super Namek Piccolo by the Buu Saga verses Ascended Vegeta (Cell games with muscles), this isn't even funny. Stats: Destructive Force: I'd say Piccolo still has much higher destructive force. Granted it's power scaling just a touch, but the timeskip gives him plenty of time to train, and there's nothing in Piccolo's character or his style to indicate he didn't stay in shape in between threats. Durability: I've noticed in Dragonball Z the Z fighters can usually take as much as or more than they can dish out. So basing this on Cell Games Piccolo within of himself and Vegeta around his battle with Cell as well, Ascended Vegeta was keeping good pace with the Cell Juniors. Piccolo was too, even better than Goku. Basically in that fight, if you didn't have the word "Super" before your species, then you weren't gonna beat a Cell Junior, whom its perfectly reasonable to assume that Cell did make as strong as him. (Otherwise the threat couldn't be legitimate enough for Gohan and Gohan wouldn't transform.) Speed: No really great speed feats for Piccolo post Cell, but again during the Cell games he was about at the same level as Vegeta, even if Vegeta was still a bit stronger. Via linear power leveling over a seven year time skip, if he got stronger then by DBZ logic he got stronger. Nothing in the series contradicts this. And even then he must have gotten stronger while training. Strength: No lifting feats really, but Super Namek Piccolo's light grenade compared to Super Vegeta's Final Flash during their respective battles in the islands were Cinematic-ally at least equally impressive. Striking, they both tore the islands up reasonably. So again, with more time its reasonable to assume that time pumped them up. 1 hyperbolic year for Vegeta vs. Piccolo's hyperbolic year and seven plus years of training, no contest. Special: Physiology is the deciding factor. Piccolo's regen, unique mystic attack and size changing properties really mix up melee combat. Vegeta's only special advantage he has, aside from surviving extreme climates (Feats Piccolo has more than matched by now in the series) is the Zenkai. But that's only if he's healed after being beaten damn near death. And this is a one on one fight, no Sensus or Dende. Conclussion: Piccolo takes this, decisively. Edited by TheACE, Mar 31 2013, 06:49 PM.
	Spoiler: click to toggle Wanna Have A Man's Conversation About Dragonball? Click Here And Scope Out My Blog! If You Have The Dragon Balls To Look At Your Favorite Characters In A Real Light. Don't Click It If You Can't Handle Reading :P This Week, Bow Your Heads Low: All Hail Prince Vegeta Briefs Check Out The Star Of Dragonball Z As He Takes Center Stage: Son Gohan Or If You Haven't Already Hit Up The Man Who Started It All: Son Goku


Zenet	Mar 31 2013, 07:01 PM Post #18
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	Piccolo buu saga is the same as cell games if he trained he would have been stronger than kids at least. Anyway Piccolo was a decent amount below Vegeta in the cell games.



TheACE	Mar 31 2013, 07:04 PM Post #19
The Last GT Fighter Posts: 4,146 Group: Member Member #9,279 Joined: March 31, 2013 Favourite Anime DB/Z/GT, Digimon, YYH, Yugioh!, GetBackers What Browser do you use? Chrome, Safari, IE Favourite Manga Rave Master, FLCL, .hack//legendofthetwilight, Naruto II	zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:01 PM Piccolo buu saga is the same as cell games if he trained he would have been stronger than kids at least. Anyway Piccolo was a decent amount below Vegeta in the cell games. How and why?
	Spoiler: click to toggle Wanna Have A Man's Conversation About Dragonball? Click Here And Scope Out My Blog! If You Have The Dragon Balls To Look At Your Favorite Characters In A Real Light. Don't Click It If You Can't Handle Reading :P This Week, Bow Your Heads Low: All Hail Prince Vegeta Briefs Check Out The Star Of Dragonball Z As He Takes Center Stage: Son Gohan Or If You Haven't Already Hit Up The Man Who Started It All: Son Goku


Zenet	Mar 31 2013, 07:14 PM Post #20
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	TheACE Mar 31 2013, 07:04 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:01 PM Piccolo buu saga is the same as cell games if he trained he would have been stronger than kids at least. Anyway Piccolo was a decent amount below Vegeta in the cell games. How and why? Because in the magna Cell said only Vegeta and Trunks can handle the cell jrs



TheACE	Mar 31 2013, 07:24 PM Post #21
The Last GT Fighter Posts: 4,146 Group: Member Member #9,279 Joined: March 31, 2013 Favourite Anime DB/Z/GT, Digimon, YYH, Yugioh!, GetBackers What Browser do you use? Chrome, Safari, IE Favourite Manga Rave Master, FLCL, .hack//legendofthetwilight, Naruto II	zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:14 PM TheACE Mar 31 2013, 07:04 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:01 PM Piccolo buu saga is the same as cell games if he trained he would have been stronger than kids at least. Anyway Piccolo was a decent amount below Vegeta in the cell games. How and why? Because in the magna Cell said only Vegeta and Trunks can handle the cell jrs I'll take that at face value. But that only seems to prove that Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Arc and says literally nothing about the Buu arc? What implicates that Piccolo didn't get any stronge in 7 years? In character, Piccolo trained rather consistantly before and after befriending Goku, whether there was a valid threat in the near future or not. There's no indication that we wouldn't power up. And for that matter, the Briefs boys weren't exactly dominating their Cell Juniors, they held their own reasonably but certainly did not win. Response?
	Spoiler: click to toggle Wanna Have A Man's Conversation About Dragonball? Click Here And Scope Out My Blog! If You Have The Dragon Balls To Look At Your Favorite Characters In A Real Light. Don't Click It If You Can't Handle Reading :P This Week, Bow Your Heads Low: All Hail Prince Vegeta Briefs Check Out The Star Of Dragonball Z As He Takes Center Stage: Son Gohan Or If You Haven't Already Hit Up The Man Who Started It All: Son Goku


Zenet	Mar 31 2013, 07:38 PM Post #22
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	TheACE Mar 31 2013, 07:24 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:14 PM TheACE Mar 31 2013, 07:04 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:01 PM Piccolo buu saga is the same as cell games if he trained he would have been stronger than kids at least. Anyway Piccolo was a decent amount below Vegeta in the cell games. How and why? Because in the magna Cell said only Vegeta and Trunks can handle the cell jrs I'll take that at face value. But that only seems to prove that Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo during the Cell Arc and says literally nothing about the Buu arc? What implicates that Piccolo didn't get any stronge in 7 years? In character, Piccolo trained rather consistantly before and after befriending Goku, whether there was a valid threat in the near future or not. There's no indication that we wouldn't power up. And for that matter, the Briefs boys weren't exactly dominating their Cell Juniors, they held their own reasonably but certainly did not win. Response? In the manga we don't see piccolo fight the Cell jrs we just know he is weaker because what cell said. Also he could have taken the role of Kami through the 7 years since he fused with him which made him stop training. I would think if Piccolo trained he would been ahead of the kids who were probably around Vegeta and trunks at cell games.



TheACE	Mar 31 2013, 08:07 PM Post #23
The Last GT Fighter Posts: 4,146 Group: Member Member #9,279 Joined: March 31, 2013 Favourite Anime DB/Z/GT, Digimon, YYH, Yugioh!, GetBackers What Browser do you use? Chrome, Safari, IE Favourite Manga Rave Master, FLCL, .hack//legendofthetwilight, Naruto II	zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:38 PM In the manga we don't see piccolo fight the Cell jrs we just know he is weaker because what cell said. Also he could have taken the role of Kami through the 7 years since he fused with him which made him stop training. I would think if Piccolo trained he would been ahead of the kids who were probably around Vegeta and trunks at cell games. I move to counter. In character Cell is kind of a prick. I don't think even that needs a reference, but look at that smug look on his face, he's being sadistic either way. That being said, referencing Chapters 407 & 408 you're dead right Piccolo doesn't do jack. But again, I'll say that Veggie and Trunks still weren't winning... So it's generalized conjecture based on his lack of screentime. We don't see him getting stomped like Tien and Krillin, but we don't see him holding his own like Trunks... and Vegeta so I concede it's logical to assume he's somewhere in the middle. That's right, he could have taken the role of Kami and stopped training to an extent, this is possible. But Piccolo did remain the Dominate Personality, as he did with Nail. Softened, and much wiser, but he was still Piccolo. So in character I don't think he would have changed that radically. But, largely due to a lack of plot relevance, Piccolo's power in the Buu saga doesn't get a lot of reference (hyperbole or otherwise). So objectively we can only use character history and location to presume that he would still train. He constantly trained and meditated at least moderately even in times of peace. Further more, we see in the Saiyan Arc, the 23rd Budokai Arc, the Cell Arc and the Buu Arc that there are more than enough places to train in the lookout. So he had the means and the motive, via logical reasoning we can conclude that there's no reason Piccolo didn't get stronger. And the boys power is up for debate, largely being an arguable case of new powers as the plot demands, but they aren't being debated this is CG Vegeta vs Buu Arc Piccolo. I still assert that Piccolo, based on stats, skills, intellect and special abilities, Piccolo has a distinct edge.
	Spoiler: click to toggle Wanna Have A Man's Conversation About Dragonball? Click Here And Scope Out My Blog! If You Have The Dragon Balls To Look At Your Favorite Characters In A Real Light. Don't Click It If You Can't Handle Reading :P This Week, Bow Your Heads Low: All Hail Prince Vegeta Briefs Check Out The Star Of Dragonball Z As He Takes Center Stage: Son Gohan Or If You Haven't Already Hit Up The Man Who Started It All: Son Goku


Alex D. Boss	Mar 31 2013, 08:10 PM Post #24
Posts: 8,688 Group: Probation Member #8,536 Joined: November 8, 2012 Gender Male Country Canada	zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:14 PM TheACE Mar 31 2013, 07:04 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:01 PM Piccolo buu saga is the same as cell games if he trained he would have been stronger than kids at least. Anyway Piccolo was a decent amount below Vegeta in the cell games. How and why? Because in the magna Cell said only Vegeta and Trunks can handle the cell jrs Cell didn't say only Vegeta and Trunks: Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3 Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…” Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind



Zenet	Mar 31 2013, 08:19 PM Post #25
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	TheACE Mar 31 2013, 08:07 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 07:38 PM In the manga we don't see piccolo fight the Cell jrs we just know he is weaker because what cell said. Also he could have taken the role of Kami through the 7 years since he fused with him which made him stop training. I would think if Piccolo trained he would been ahead of the kids who were probably around Vegeta and trunks at cell games. I move to counter. In character Cell is kind of a prick. I don't think even that needs a reference, but look at that smug look on his face, he's being sadistic either way. That being said, referencing Chapters 407 & 408 you're dead right Piccolo doesn't do jack. But again, I'll say that Veggie and Trunks still weren't winning... So it's generalized conjecture based on his lack of screentime. We don't see him getting stomped like Tien and Krillin, but we don't see him holding his own like Trunks... and Vegeta so I concede it's logical to assume he's somewhere in the middle. That's right, he could have taken the role of Kami and stopped training to an extent, this is possible. But Piccolo did remain the Dominate Personality, as he did with Nail. Softened, and much wiser, but he was still Piccolo. So in character I don't think he would have changed that radically. But, largely due to a lack of plot relevance, Piccolo's power in the Buu saga doesn't get a lot of reference (hyperbole or otherwise). So objectively we can only use character history and location to presume that he would still train. He constantly trained and meditated at least moderately even in times of peace. Further more, we see in the Saiyan Arc, the 23rd Budokai Arc, the Cell Arc and the Buu Arc that there are more than enough places to train in the lookout. So he had the means and the motive, via logical reasoning we can conclude that there's no reason Piccolo didn't get stronger. And the boys power is up for debate, largely being an arguable case of new powers as the plot demands, but they aren't being debated this is CG Vegeta vs Buu Arc Piccolo. I still assert that Piccolo, based on stats, skills, intellect and special abilities, Piccolo has a distinct edge. Gohan found piccolo at the look out instead of the mountains after 7 years and Piccolo forfeited his fight with the Kai out of respect Kami personality shows more in Buu saga. Because of this Piccolo could have stopped training like kami since it wasn’t necessary anymore. Also Goku and Vegeta wanted to fight in the tournament at base knowing piccolo was there. This could mean Base sayains are stronger than Piccolo at this point. Keep in mind they did train for 7 years. Alex: Piccolo wasn't mentioned just as the humans wasn't. Edited by Zenet, Mar 31 2013, 08:24 PM.



TheACE	Mar 31 2013, 08:33 PM Post #26
The Last GT Fighter Posts: 4,146 Group: Member Member #9,279 Joined: March 31, 2013 Favourite Anime DB/Z/GT, Digimon, YYH, Yugioh!, GetBackers What Browser do you use? Chrome, Safari, IE Favourite Manga Rave Master, FLCL, .hack//legendofthetwilight, Naruto II	zenet Mar 31 2013, 08:19 PM Gohan found piccolo at the look out instead of the mountains after 7 years Piccolo forfeited his fight with the Kai out of respect Kami personality shows more in Buu saga. Because of this Piccolo could have stopped training like kami since it wasn’t necessary anymore. Also Goku and Vegeta wanted to fight in the tournament at base knowing piccolo was there. This could mean Base sayains are stronger than Piccolo at this point. Keep in mind they did train for 7 years. Zenet, you are fun to debate against. Here's my counter attack. Piccolo explicitly stated he was gonna hang out on the lookout. We've already established that the Lookout has no lack of good places to train if one wants to. Piccolo giving up his fight out of respect is true. There's nothing wrong with that, Kami is a part of Piccolo. Reference Piccolo's interactions with Dende after fusing with Nail. Same sort of thing, Nail contributed to Piccolo as a whole. And Piccolo was visably wiser on and off the battlefield after fusing with Kami, making him the Genius Bruiser of the team, even smarter in many aspects than Trunks (Who arguably is probably much smarter than most of the Z-Fighters). Technically Goku and Vegeta didn't need to train either, it's just in their character as Saiyans so that's what they do. Nothing wrong with that. And I'm sure they're much stronger than they were in the Cell Games, that's not even a question. However it's not up for debate right now. And the main reason that Gohan, not Vegeta and Goku made them promise not to transform is because they don't want to garner unwanted attention. As you can see, Goku wasn't even present for the conversation. Piccolo isn't even brought up in the convo, hell Krillin is the one that's relieved. What was the dub line? "Great, because Fighting a Super Saiyan is like fighting a brick wall." Piccolo didn't seem concerned in the least. So either way none of this proves that Piccolo is weaker than Vegeta was in the Cell Games. My assertion stands. I'm ready to deflect further counter-attacks.
	Spoiler: click to toggle Wanna Have A Man's Conversation About Dragonball? Click Here And Scope Out My Blog! If You Have The Dragon Balls To Look At Your Favorite Characters In A Real Light. Don't Click It If You Can't Handle Reading :P This Week, Bow Your Heads Low: All Hail Prince Vegeta Briefs Check Out The Star Of Dragonball Z As He Takes Center Stage: Son Gohan Or If You Haven't Already Hit Up The Man Who Started It All: Son Goku


Zenet	Mar 31 2013, 08:51 PM Post #27
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	TheACE Mar 31 2013, 08:33 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 08:19 PM Gohan found piccolo at the look out instead of the mountains after 7 years Piccolo forfeited his fight with the Kai out of respect Kami personality shows more in Buu saga. Because of this Piccolo could have stopped training like kami since it wasn’t necessary anymore. Also Goku and Vegeta wanted to fight in the tournament at base knowing piccolo was there. This could mean Base sayains are stronger than Piccolo at this point. Keep in mind they did train for 7 years. Zenet, you are fun to debate against. Here's my counter attack. Piccolo explicitly stated he was gonna hang out on the lookout. We've already established that the Lookout has no lack of good places to train if one wants to. Piccolo giving up his fight out of respect is true. There's nothing wrong with that, Kami is a part of Piccolo. Reference Piccolo's interactions with Dende after fusing with Nail. Same sort of thing, Nail contributed to Piccolo as a whole. And Piccolo was visably wiser on and off the battlefield after fusing with Kami, making him the Genius Bruiser of the team, even smarter in many aspects than Trunks (Who arguably is probably much smarter than most of the Z-Fighters). Technically Goku and Vegeta didn't need to train either, it's just in their character as Saiyans so that's what they do. Nothing wrong with that. And I'm sure they're much stronger than they were in the Cell Games, that's not even a question. However it's not up for debate right now. And the main reason that Gohan, not Vegeta and Goku made them promise not to transform is because they don't want to garner unwanted attention. As you can see, Goku wasn't even present for the conversation. Piccolo isn't even brought up in the convo, hell Krillin is the one that's relieved. What was the dub line? "Great, because Fighting a Super Saiyan is like fighting a brick wall." Piccolo didn't seem concerned in the least. So either way none of this proves that Piccolo is weaker than Vegeta was in the Cell Games. My assertion stands. I'm ready to deflect further counter-attacks. Your fun to debate with too. my counter argument There are allot of indications that show 1) Base Saiyans > Piccolo Babidi ignoring him and telling Dabura to leave the three strongest and the kai which was the Base Saiyans and Gohan, it really doesn't make any sense. seeing how strong Piccolo was at cell games Meaning the theory about decreasing SS multiplier in Buu saga is correct. Remember Goku and Vegeta trained for 7 years and Gohan could have had a zenkai when he had his energy drained putting him above Piccolo at base. if this correct then Piccolo must have not had any gains through the 7 years or maybe very tiny gains. which would keep him below Vegeta at cell games. Edited by Zenet, Mar 31 2013, 08:53 PM.



+ Pyrus	Mar 31 2013, 09:29 PM Post #28
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Toriyama said in a very recent interview that Piccolo trained between Cell and Boo.
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TheACE	Mar 31 2013, 10:08 PM Post #29
The Last GT Fighter Posts: 4,146 Group: Member Member #9,279 Joined: March 31, 2013 Favourite Anime DB/Z/GT, Digimon, YYH, Yugioh!, GetBackers What Browser do you use? Chrome, Safari, IE Favourite Manga Rave Master, FLCL, .hack//legendofthetwilight, Naruto II	zenet Mar 31 2013, 08:51 PM TheACE Mar 31 2013, 08:33 PM zenet Mar 31 2013, 08:19 PM Gohan found piccolo at the look out instead of the mountains after 7 years Piccolo forfeited his fight with the Kai out of respect Kami personality shows more in Buu saga. Because of this Piccolo could have stopped training like kami since it wasn’t necessary anymore. Also Goku and Vegeta wanted to fight in the tournament at base knowing piccolo was there. This could mean Base sayains are stronger than Piccolo at this point. Keep in mind they did train for 7 years. Zenet, you are fun to debate against. Here's my counter attack. Piccolo explicitly stated he was gonna hang out on the lookout. We've already established that the Lookout has no lack of good places to train if one wants to. Piccolo giving up his fight out of respect is true. There's nothing wrong with that, Kami is a part of Piccolo. Reference Piccolo's interactions with Dende after fusing with Nail. Same sort of thing, Nail contributed to Piccolo as a whole. And Piccolo was visably wiser on and off the battlefield after fusing with Kami, making him the Genius Bruiser of the team, even smarter in many aspects than Trunks (Who arguably is probably much smarter than most of the Z-Fighters). Technically Goku and Vegeta didn't need to train either, it's just in their character as Saiyans so that's what they do. Nothing wrong with that. And I'm sure they're much stronger than they were in the Cell Games, that's not even a question. However it's not up for debate right now. And the main reason that Gohan, not Vegeta and Goku made them promise not to transform is because they don't want to garner unwanted attention. As you can see, Goku wasn't even present for the conversation. Piccolo isn't even brought up in the convo, hell Krillin is the one that's relieved. What was the dub line? "Great, because Fighting a Super Saiyan is like fighting a brick wall." Piccolo didn't seem concerned in the least. So either way none of this proves that Piccolo is weaker than Vegeta was in the Cell Games. My assertion stands. I'm ready to deflect further counter-attacks. Your fun to debate with too. my counter argument There are allot of indications that show 1) Base Saiyans > Piccolo Babidi ignoring him and telling Dabura to leave the three strongest and the kai which was the Base Saiyans and Gohan, it really doesn't make any sense. seeing how strong Piccolo was at cell games Meaning the theory about decreasing SS multiplier in Buu saga is correct. Remember Goku and Vegeta trained for 7 years and Gohan could have had a zenkai when he had his energy drained putting him above Piccolo at base. if this correct then Piccolo must have not had any gains through the 7 years or maybe very tiny gains. which would keep him below Vegeta at cell games. You make a good point, however there is one thing about the arguement that bothers me. The heroes and Villians that can sense energy likely see what's really behind the the curtain. Take the Elder Kai for example, a hero who's magic is at least equivalent to Guru or Babidi's, if not more so. Like Guru before him, Elder Kai had the insight to Gohan's true maximum power relative to his potential. It's like that Babidi had the same power/insight. Is this directly stated? No, so this too is conjecture. However this doesn't minimize Piccolo's gains. All that really indicates is that Gohan, Goku and Vegeta's Ki reserves (which Kili and power level are apparently based on) are higher than Piccolo and Krillin's. That and come on, as a plot device, the Saiyans had hype as they had the most potential for power, with multiple energy increasing transformations, presuming the Super Saiyan transformations scale linearly. So I'm still not convinced, I'm pretty sure that Piccolo still has one up on Vegeta if we're comparing the Buu Arc Super Namek to Cell Games Arc Veggie.
	Spoiler: click to toggle Wanna Have A Man's Conversation About Dragonball? Click Here And Scope Out My Blog! If You Have The Dragon Balls To Look At Your Favorite Characters In A Real Light. Don't Click It If You Can't Handle Reading :P This Week, Bow Your Heads Low: All Hail Prince Vegeta Briefs Check Out The Star Of Dragonball Z As He Takes Center Stage: Son Gohan Or If You Haven't Already Hit Up The Man Who Started It All: Son Goku


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