ASSj and USSj body weight increase

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ASSj and USSj body weight increase; what are your bets?
Tweet Topic Started: Mar 22 2013, 12:11 PM (1,099 Views)
Xfing	Mar 22 2013, 12:11 PM Post #1
Posts: 817 Group: Member Member #5,616 Joined: January 11, 2011	Say Vegeta's normal weight was 60 kg. As we know from gravity training, increased gravity makes your body several times heavier, which also cuts your movement speed by the same multiplier - physics say that if you apply the same force to an object 2x as heavy, it will only reach half the maximum velocity of the lighter object. But what do you think the body mass increases for the first level transformations were? ASSj is widely considered to still be faster than an unmastered grade 1 SSj of the same Base power. And many people give it a 1,5x SSj multiplier. So the power goes from 10 to 15. And depending on the body mass increase, part of the speed increase will be nullified. If, say, Vegeta got 20% heavier from all that muscular inflation (so weighing 72 kg now), the acceleration of his movement will be also reduced by 20%. So instead of a 1,5x speed boost, he'll get a 80%*1,5x = 1,2x. So his speed will be 12. But if we assume that the heavy muscles constitute 33% of his weight (so from 60 to 80kg while transformed), the 1,5x speed increase will be totally offset by the weight gain, and his speed will remain at 10 even though his power will go to 15. USSj pushes this even further, but most people give it a 3x power increase in relation to regular Super Saiyan. So from 10 the power goes to 30. The speed would also rise, but the body weight rises tremendously. However, at a 66% body weight increase (so Vegeta going from 60 kg to 100 kg), the calculation dictates that the speed will remain 10 anyway. So if those numbers were assumed, it would mean that both ASSj and USSj are just as fast as the regular Super Saiyan. Of course this doesn't in any way override or contradict the "it kills my speed" statement - it's quite obvious that a warrior with the power of 30 and speed 10 couldn't really defeat even somebody with 15/15 because he couldn't hit him. So my question is: What do you think the weight increase is? Do you think it's constant for all body types, or would Goku sustain a lower body weight increase in proportion to Vegeta because of his taller stature?



lunar2	Mar 23 2013, 05:06 PM Post #2
Posts: 9,150 Group: Member Member #5,265 Joined: September 24, 2010 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime dragonball/z/gt/movies What Browser do you use? internet explorer or firefox	the weights we are dealing with here are miniscule in comparison to the physical strength of the z fighters. even if vegeta doubled his weight, it wouldn't have an appreciable effect on his speed. the speed loss comes not from weight, but from volume. assj is bigger and bulkier than ssj, causing higher wind resistance, which causes some speed loss in comparison with an ssj of the same power. ussj is so bulky that it is actually slower than assj, despite being much more powerful. it's the size that's the problem, not the weight. and while assj and ussj may or may not increase weight, they do increase strength along with power, so even if the weight would otherwise be a problem, the strength increase nullifies it.
	list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god


+ supersaqer	Mar 23 2013, 05:09 PM Post #3
Transcendent Posts: 5,117 Group: Elite Member Member #5,137 Joined: August 13, 2010 Gender Not Specified	lunar2 Mar 23 2013, 05:06 PM the weights we are dealing with here are miniscule in comparison to the physical strength of the z fighters. even if vegeta doubled his weight, it wouldn't have an appreciable effect on his speed. the speed loss comes not from weight, but from volume. assj is bigger and bulkier than ssj, causing higher wind resistance, which causes some speed loss in comparison with an ssj of the same power. ussj is so bulky that it is actually slower than assj, despite being much more powerful. it's the size that's the problem, not the weight. and while assj and ussj may or may not increase weight, they do increase strength along with power, so even if the weight would otherwise be a problem, the strength increase nullifies it. One problem is the SSjinG2 increases speed.
	Speed-o'-Sound Sonic


lunar2	Mar 23 2013, 06:05 PM Post #4
Posts: 9,150 Group: Member Member #5,265 Joined: September 24, 2010 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime dragonball/z/gt/movies What Browser do you use? internet explorer or firefox	supersaqer Mar 23 2013, 05:09 PM lunar2 Mar 23 2013, 05:06 PM the weights we are dealing with here are miniscule in comparison to the physical strength of the z fighters. even if vegeta doubled his weight, it wouldn't have an appreciable effect on his speed. the speed loss comes not from weight, but from volume. assj is bigger and bulkier than ssj, causing higher wind resistance, which causes some speed loss in comparison with an ssj of the same power. ussj is so bulky that it is actually slower than assj, despite being much more powerful. it's the size that's the problem, not the weight. and while assj and ussj may or may not increase weight, they do increase strength along with power, so even if the weight would otherwise be a problem, the strength increase nullifies it. One problem is the SSjinG2 increases speed. not to the same extent that it increase power. yes, assj vegeta is faster than ssj vegeta. but 3 months later, when ssh vegeta is as powerful as assj vegeta was, he is now faster. so ssj power 100 speed 100 assj power 150 speed 130 ssj power 150 speed 150
	list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god


Xfing	Mar 24 2013, 03:23 AM Post #5
Posts: 817 Group: Member Member #5,616 Joined: January 11, 2011	Well, I actually consider the mass as the deciding factor in determining speed. While it's obvious that dealing with a few kilos is not an issue for someone with ASSj power, the laws of physics dictate that even doubling your body's weight will cut your speed in half, simply because a body 2x as heavy will only reach 0,5x of the velocity a body 2x as light would reach if the same force was applied. But I think one should also consider the muscles themselves, moving around in USSj is not half as cozy as when your muscles are normal, there's unnecessary friction and restricted freedom of movement. Still, I think the speed cut is mostly due to the mass.



Vertical	Mar 24 2013, 05:22 AM Post #6
Posts: 2,542 Group: Member Member #8,475 Joined: October 27, 2012	Wouldn't the estimated weight increase be determined by the weight of Ki itself? I have always been of the opinion that ASSJ/USSJ was simply a "Ki weighting" technique, and if Ki itself weighs little or nothing (which as far as I know is the general consensus), then ASSJ/USSJ muscles size increases would be comparable to inflating a balloon (very little mass increase). I believe the actual movement speed loss is not as severe as the agility loss from wielding such awkward muscles (imagine attempting to fight while wearing swimming arm band floatation aids the full length of your arms and legs). You would clearly be slower due to air resistance but the majority of your sluggishness would be from agility lost.
	DeviantART


+ miguelnuva	Mar 24 2013, 06:20 AM Post #7
Posts: 4,068 Group: Elite Member Member #8,291 Joined: September 16, 2012 Favourite Anime DragonBall Z What Browser do you use? FireFox Favourite Manga Sailor Moon	lunar2 Mar 23 2013, 06:05 PM supersaqer Mar 23 2013, 05:09 PM lunar2 Mar 23 2013, 05:06 PM the weights we are dealing with here are miniscule in comparison to the physical strength of the z fighters. even if vegeta doubled his weight, it wouldn't have an appreciable effect on his speed. the speed loss comes not from weight, but from volume. assj is bigger and bulkier than ssj, causing higher wind resistance, which causes some speed loss in comparison with an ssj of the same power. ussj is so bulky that it is actually slower than assj, despite being much more powerful. it's the size that's the problem, not the weight. and while assj and ussj may or may not increase weight, they do increase strength along with power, so even if the weight would otherwise be a problem, the strength increase nullifies it. One problem is the SSjinG2 increases speed. not to the same extent that it increase power. yes, assj vegeta is faster than ssj vegeta. but 3 months later, when ssh vegeta is as powerful as assj vegeta was, he is now faster. so ssj power 100 speed 100 assj power 150 speed 130 ssj power 150 speed 150 This right here is ultimately why Goku says SSJ is the best form.
	Gogeta power placement


Xfing	Mar 24 2013, 12:46 PM Post #8
Posts: 817 Group: Member Member #5,616 Joined: January 11, 2011	Well yeah, I think some of the speed boost from ASSJ is negated by the added weight, but the speed growth is still positive. Unlinke in USSJ, which is probably negative compared to ASSj.



lunar2	Mar 26 2013, 04:28 PM Post #9
Posts: 9,150 Group: Member Member #5,265 Joined: September 24, 2010 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime dragonball/z/gt/movies What Browser do you use? internet explorer or firefox	Xfing Mar 24 2013, 03:23 AM Well, I actually consider the mass as the deciding factor in determining speed. While it's obvious that dealing with a few kilos is not an issue for someone with ASSj power, the laws of physics dictate that even doubling your body's weight will cut your speed in half, simply because a body 2x as heavy will only reach 0,5x of the velocity a body 2x as light would reach if the same force was applied. But I think one should also consider the muscles themselves, moving around in USSj is not half as cozy as when your muscles are normal, there's unnecessary friction and restricted freedom of movement. Still, I think the speed cut is mostly due to the mass. that would only be true if mass were the limiting factor in their speed. goku, for example, is capable of moving comfortably at ~7 tons. as a ussj, even if his mass is increased, he would not even weigh 500 lbs. yes, in a vacuum, an assj or ussj would be far slower than an ssj of the same power (although still much faster than anyone within an atmosphere). but within an atmosphere, where the primary limiter of speed is wind resistance, the effect of the weight is negligible, because no one is actually capable of moving at their absolute maximum anyway.
	list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god


Xfing	Mar 26 2013, 07:04 PM Post #10
Posts: 817 Group: Member Member #5,616 Joined: January 11, 2011	Then how to explain USSj's diminished mobility? Is it serious, then? Do people vastly overestimate the mobility limit and therfore the speed cut?



lunar2	Mar 28 2013, 09:42 PM Post #11
Posts: 9,150 Group: Member Member #5,265 Joined: September 24, 2010 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime dragonball/z/gt/movies What Browser do you use? internet explorer or firefox	ussj's speed decreased has already been explained. you get bulky, making it hard to move (ask a 'roided out bodybuilder to scratch their nose, it's hilarious) and you get big, increasing wind resistance. the mass is a negligible factor.
	list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god


Xfing	Apr 3 2013, 08:35 PM Post #12
Posts: 817 Group: Member Member #5,616 Joined: January 11, 2011	lunar2 Mar 28 2013, 09:42 PM ussj's speed decreased has already been explained. you get bulky, making it hard to move (ask a 'roided out bodybuilder to scratch their nose, it's hilarious) and you get big, increasing wind resistance. the mass is a negligible factor. But... but... but... weighted clothing!



Reldar	Apr 3 2013, 11:30 PM Post #13
Posts: 182 Group: Member Member #9,086 Joined: February 21, 2013	I think the bigger question is: "If they gain mass, how is that possible?" Matter doesn't just appear and disappear from nowhere. It can only change form. From where do they get this extra matter from? Also if mass really does restrict speed so much... you'd think they'd shave all their hair, wear as little as possible and do anything else to get their mass lower! Every little helps!



Xfing	Apr 4 2013, 03:01 PM Post #14
Posts: 817 Group: Member Member #5,616 Joined: January 11, 2011	I know this doesn't entirely have to do with the mass, but on the other hand, muscular friction itself wouldn't be that great a factor on its own.



lunar2	Apr 4 2013, 05:03 PM Post #15
Posts: 9,150 Group: Member Member #5,265 Joined: September 24, 2010 Gender Not Specified Favourite Anime dragonball/z/gt/movies What Browser do you use? internet explorer or firefox	Xfing Apr 3 2013, 08:35 PM lunar2 Mar 28 2013, 09:42 PM ussj's speed decreased has already been explained. you get bulky, making it hard to move (ask a 'roided out bodybuilder to scratch their nose, it's hilarious) and you get big, increasing wind resistance. the mass is a negligible factor. But... but... but... weighted clothing! was only used as a power/speed limiter early on in the series, before ki became the primary source of speed. goku in the buu arc was training with 8 tons with no apparent speed loss (hard to tell, i know, but it would have been mentioned, like it was at the 23rd budokai) Reldar Apr 3 2013, 11:30 PM I think the bigger question is: "If they gain mass, how is that possible?" Matter doesn't just appear and disappear from nowhere. It can only change form. From where do they get this extra matter from? Also if mass really does restrict speed so much... you'd think they'd shave all their hair, wear as little as possible and do anything else to get their mass lower! Every little helps! piccolo's regeneration, at least, is ki based. so it can be converted into mass, and cell's absorption shows that the reverse is also true. so ki is a traditional form of energy, and so E=mc^2 comes into play. Xfing Apr 4 2013, 03:01 PM I know this doesn't entirely have to do with the mass, but on the other hand, muscular friction itself wouldn't be that great a factor on its own. at the supersonic speeds they move at, yes, friction and wind resistance are huge factors.
	list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god


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