DBZ Resources Thread

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DBZ Resources Thread
Tweet Topic Started: Feb 4 2013, 04:24 PM (3,039 Views)
~~Professor Gohan~~	Feb 4 2013, 04:24 PM Post #1
Posts: 0 Group: GTFO Member #6,938 Joined: November 2, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	The Best Resources-by Yellow_Flash The Best Resources Below is a list of the best resources to use in a debate and is ranked in a rough order of canonicity that is generally accepted on the forum. Original Japanese Manga 1.The original Japanese manga is the best , it is truly the most reliable and consistent. Too bad most of us don't have it but it you do and you understand it then you have the best work possible. How to get it: If you are outside of Japan you'd likely have to import it. Japanese Anime 2.Now the Japanese anime, unlike the English anime this is more or less the same as Japanese manga very accurate and good to use. Many of the more recent releases from Funimation contain the Japanese audio with accurate subtitles to refer to. Be careful though, only the canon portions of the Anime are accurate and you'll have to be careful distinguishing between the canon and filler. How to get it: Buy the DVDs. Herms Translations 3. Herms translations: Since we cant access most of the Japanese stuff and we don't understand it , a man named Herms does understand Japanese and has translated many parts of the dbz manga and other works of dbz that are in Japanese. Why should you trust this man you might wonder? Well he is probably the most well known dbz member across all dbz related forums and is very highly respected and praised, his work speaks for itself and like the other works mentioned above it is very clear and efficient. The best part is that its in English and very easy to access How to get it: He is on a forum called kanzenshuu and his most referred to work (a collection of all power related quotes) is in the link below http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9633 Viz Manga Translations 4. Now we move on to VIZ big/tankouban/kanzeban . VIZ /tankouban/kanzeban are three different forms of the official dbz translation to English. But why is it inferior to Herms you may be wondering. That is because it is not as well translated , certain key words are not there but replaced as well it was translated as an adaptation, not necessarily a direct translation. Now this work is not bad either it is still good but others should take precedence. The two latter were released awhile ago and are hard to come by and the English and grammar is not all there , the VIZ is just an updated version that makes more sense and better translated. How to get it: You have to buy them like most of the works. We'd suggest Amazon for the best deals. "Fanslations" 5.* Fanslations; This is essentially the dbz manga translated by random people. More often then not the translation is actually not bad they are often referred in debates but in no means are they as reliable as the others mentioned above. How to get it: They are on the internet. However, please note that you cannot link directly to any site providing fanslations as they are illegal and you will be warned for it. English Dubbed Anime 6. Finally we have the English anime. Its been dubbed several times all not reliable what so ever. There are soo many random words and scenes ect. these are fun to watch but should never be used in any serious discussion or versus unless its a friendly one. The only reasonably dub is the dbz kai, which takes out all the filler and is very well translated but still does not compete with the other material How to get it: Either buy the DVDs or, depending on where you live, it may show on TV. Movies/GT/Anime only material 7. Movies, should not be used as a source or reference in discussions or versus UNLESS, it is about movie fighters versus cannon fighters or movie fighters vs movie fighters ect. or you are discussing about the movie. The same goes for GT and filler in the anime. How to get it: Buy it Contrasting Suppressing and holding back-by Prof. Gohan The contrasting of Suppressing, Holding back, and Relaxed states Suppressing: A skill that takes deep concentration; To free willingly be able to push their BP to levels below their relaxed state(the state they walk around in without being suppressed or powered up.) to hide their true power for throwing off an opponent or to hide. -Ex 1. Goku, Vegeta, Krillin, and Gohan all suppressing their power to hide it from Babidi and Dabura. -Ex 2. Vegeta sneaking around Namek under Freeza's nose. -Ex 3.Gohan and Krillin hiding their power to sneak under Vegeta's. #Relaxed State: The state fighters walk around in when they aren't suppressing, powered up, or at FP. Them just doing stuff in their daily lives with no fighting going through their head at all. -Ex 1. Gohan having a cup of tea with Videl at home. -Ex 2. Goten out on a date. -Ex 3. Nappa before he started working the Z Gang over. Holding Back: Here's what I think about Holding Back that came to mind: Holding back is when Fighter A is clearly stronger than Fighter B, but F-A uses his match use power to match F-B to make it a good fight for however long he desires. -Ex 1. Cell blocking Goku's punches for a long time; matched on his level, but when he decides he's had enough of the games, he's able to power up and blow Goku away; stopping him from attacking him any further with ease. Cell able to use a burst of power when he needs to--to overcome Goku who is going all out on him. -Ex 2. Goku fighting Krillin at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. Goku, Gotenks, Boo Placement-by Kamikaze Pyro KEY Pure Boo = Kid Boo Evil Boo = Super Boo Pure Evil Boo = Gray Boo/Skinny Boo Table of Contents I. Pre-Fusion (SSj2 Majin Vegeta up to Base Gotenks [pre-RoSaT]) II. Fusion (Base Gotenks [pre-RoSaT] to SSj3 Gotenks) III. Post-Fusion (Ultimate Gohan to SSj Vegetto) IV. Arguments & Counterarguments =========================================== I. Pre-Fusion Spoiler: click to toggle 1. Fat Boo fights SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta, who was equal to SSjin 2 Goku, and crushes him. Vegeta resorts to self-destructing because he's so far below Boo and sees no other choice. We've got this so far: Fat Boo > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P7.1-2 Context: after Vegeta blasts a hole through Boo’s chest Boo: “That hurt…a little bit…hehehe…” Vegeta: “…Are you immortal?...” Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P1.3 Context: after Boo’s big attack that makes a crater Vegeta: “…Wh-what the?...Ridiculous; he’s st-strong, and to top it off immortal too…Damn it all…” Chapter: 466 (DBZ 272), P2.3 Piccolo: “Even Ve-Vegeta absolutely can’t scratch that thing…” Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3 Trunks: “N-no! We’ll fight too! You’ll be killed on your own, papa! We’ll definitely be able to defeat him if we 3 do it together!” Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…” Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.1 Piccolo: “Just as Kaioshin feared, Majin Boo’s strength surpasses our imagination…If we leave him alone like this, then without a doubt all life on not merely the Earth, but throughout the entire universe will be wiped out…” Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.6-7 Goku: “Damn it! If either Vegeta or Gohan were alive, maybe we could have managed something…” Piccolo: “…No, it probably wouldn’t matter how many people went at him…He wasn’t at that level…” Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P10.7 Context: after Goten and Trunks question Goku’s power and Piccolo gets mad Goku: “It’s alright, Piccolo…I really am weak. It don’t look like I can beat Majin Boo, not even a little bit.” 2. SSjin 3 Goku stalls Boo so Trunks can get the Dragon Radar. When Goku returns to the Lookout, Piccolo asks him if he could have beaten Boo had he gone all-out, and he tells Piccolo he "probably" couldn't have. Although Goku said here that he couldn't beat Boo, their fight shows him to have the advantage, and Piccolo is visibly skeptical, hence his question to Goku, so going solely by power at this point, we've got this: SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P10.5-8 Piccolo: “Goku…There’s something I want to ask you while I’ve got the chance…[ ] …That Super Saiyan 3 thing earlier…if you had gone all-out, wouldn’t you have been able to defeat Majin Boo?...How about it, am I wrong?” Goku: “Nah, I don’t know…When it comes to Majin Boo’s strength, it’s like a lie…I think that I probably couldn’t have won…” II. Fusion Spoiler: click to toggle 3. Goku introduces Fusion and states twice that if the boys perfect it, they'll definitely be able to beat Boo. The boys could only go SSjin, and Goku measured their full power for a reason, so that's what Goku assumed they'd beat Boo with, otherwise he would have stated they could beat him even without the use of the form, as Trunks later specifies beating Evil Boo in their regular state and not a transformed state. Also, Goku tells Piccolo that he told Boo a stronger fighter than him would come in 2 days; he never actually told this to Boo, but Piccolo doesn't know that. Now we have: SSjin Gotenks (predicted) > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4 Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.” Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8 Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.” 4. Goku leaves and the boys finally get Fusion right. Gotenks forms in Base first, and right away Piccolo tells him he's not strong enough to even think about beating Boo. Gotenks cockily disobeys Piccolo and leaves to fight Boo, but returns after a prompt butt-kicking, cementing Piccolo's statement. Although he gets his butt kicked, he was confident in fighting Boo, and Krillin and Yamcha also seemed to think he stood a chance. In order for Gotenks to feel confident, he would have to be comfortably ahead of SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta and Goku at the very least. We have: SSjin Gotenks (predicted) > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.” Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!” Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5 Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…” Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…” Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3 Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…” Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!” 5. The boys then fuse as Super Saiyans, and Piccolo immediately comments on SSjin Gotenks's power in a positive way, but questions if his speed is up to par; notice he doesn't question Gotenks's power, and he merely asked for a "little" demonstration of his movement. When Gotenks flies off and Piccolo finally catches up to him, Gotenks flaunts his speed and flies off again, but Piccolo shows no contempt except that Gotenks only has 1 minute left to fight Boo. Since nothing thus far contradicts it, we have: SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5 Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.” Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!” Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P13.2-3 Context: after Gotenks returns from fighting Boo Gotenks: “I got the tar beaten out of me…” Piccolo: “Alright, your fight with Majin Boo is 1 day from now! Until then, train as much as you can! If you get even a little bit stronger, it will be more effective when you perform Fusion. Got that, you miserable little punks?!” Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3 Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little” Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.” Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8 Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…” Gotenks takes off Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a ****head…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!” 6. Evil Boo forms and Piccolo immediately rushes the boys into the Room of Spirit and Time, telling Krillin that they can't win as they are now. He also states Evil Boo is superior to Fat Boo in all aspects, including strength. We have: Evil Boo > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5 Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!” Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6 Trunks: “Huh!? That’s Majin Boo!?” Goten: “He-he really has changed…” Piccolo: “It’s not just his appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…” 7. The boys train for about 15 days (about 1 hour in the outside world). While still training, Trunks states that even with "regular Fusion," they should be able to beat Boo. When Base Gotenks actually forms, Piccolo thinks they might have a chance. This puts Base Gotenks above his previous Super Saiyan power by a decent margin at least. Evil Boo ~ Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P3.5 Context: Trunks doesn’t like the idea of fighting Boo as a Super Saiyan 3 from the start Trunks: “I think…that we’ve already progressed so much that even in a regular state Fusion, we’ll be about equal with Majin Boo...” Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P11.5 Context: seeing Gotenks after he’d trained in the Room of Spirit and Time Piccolo: “He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!” 8. It turns out Goku was right that Boo's Ki was "like a lie," and Base Gotenks is promptly shoveled off the pavement after being humiliated; so Evil Boo was heavily underestimated. It takes Super Saiyan 3 for Gotenks to actually damage Boo to any worthwhile extent. Near the end of their fight, it appears as if Gotenks is about to finish Boo, but time runs out and he splits back into Goten and Trunks. Evil Boo later states to Gohan that he felt Gohan's Ki on the Kai planet and decided to wait for him. For simplicity's sake, we'll put Gotenks and Boo on par with each other, so we have: SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 495 (DBZ 301), P6.1-3, P7.1-3 Context: after Gotenks blasts Boo with the Rapid-Fire Die-Die Missiles and Piccolo stops him Gotenks: “Well, whatever. I already did quite a lot, after all. He should be pretty weakened.” Boo comes out* Gotenks: “…He ain’t weakened…This really pisses me off!” Piccolo: “N-no…He is weakened…I don’t know about physically, but he’s weakened a little mentally…! Th-this is the first time…that he’s fought someone strong like you…He’s feeling flustered by someone whose strength is at least on par with his own…” Gotenks: “Dehhehheh! So in other words, Majin Boo’s freaked out, huh!? That’s right! My strength ain’t half-assed! I’m the best in the universe!” Piccolo: “Don’t let your guard down! He’ll be coming at you frantically now…!” Gotenks: “Dahhahhah, that’s problem, no problem at all! That’s just what I was hoping for!” Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P12.2-4 Gohan: “…That was dirty, you bastard…You ingested the two of them into yourself…” Boo: “It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…” III. Post-Fusion Spoiler: click to toggle 9. Gohan, his potential freshly released thanks to Elder Kaioshin, ends up whooping Boo's candy *** all over the arena, so Boo self-destructs and the fun begins, giving us this: Ultimate Gohan > SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P1.3, P2.4 Context: after Gohan beats up on Boo Gohan: “You can’t win…” [ ] Gohan: “I see…So you tried testing your power just to be sure, and I really was above you…That’s too bad, Majin Boo.” Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P3.2 Context: Boo says he’ll kill Gohan Gohan: “You’re the one who should best know just how impossible that is…” Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P7.4 Context: after Boo disappears Trunks: “Even if he really is still alive, it doesn’t matter! That jerk was helpless against Gohan!” 10. Boo absorbs SSjin 3 Gotenks and Piccolo to become Gotenks-Boo, and proves himself quite superior to Gohan, so much so that Gohan resorts to stalling in a cave until the Fusion runs out. Another important tidbit is that he states himself to be the most powerful Boo to date. We now have this: Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P11.1 Boo: “…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.” Chapter: 500 (DBZ 306), P6.4, P7.1 Context: after Gohan and Boo fight a bit Boo: “What’s the matter? You’re erasing your ki and hiding in a place like that…Are you trying to stall for time? Meaning that just from that you seem to have realized…That like this, you’re absolutely no match for me…” Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5 Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…” Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P5.6 Boo: “…What, did you plan on coming to save everyone? You idiot…Can’t you tell that I’m in a fundamentally different dimension than the Majin Boo from back then?” Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P7.1 Context: talking to Goku after knocking out Tenshinhan Boo: “…That guy just now was apparently quite a master, but he was reduced to that state in just 1 one kick…You’re making some worthless boasts…Frankly, no matter what you try, you absolutely won’t be able to even inflict damage on me.” 11. Gotenks defuses inside Boo (Piccolo-Boo), reducing his power so much that now Gohan can beat him again. We have: Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5 Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…” 12. Boo absorbs Gohan (Gohan-Boo) and leaves Goku dropping chocolate soldiers all over the battlefield. Once again, Boo states himself to be the most powerful Boo to date, so we get: Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1 Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!” Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P2.5-6 Context: after Boo absorbs Vegetto Elder Kaioshin: “…Don’t you think it’s a little strange? …Each time Majin Boo has absorbed a warrior up to now, his power has gone up and his appearance has changed…But this time…” Kaioshin: “He hasn’t cha-changed…! Wh-what’s that mean!?” Note: as we soon learn, Vegetto’s barrier prevented him from being truly absorbed. Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P3.5 Context: after Boo ‘absorbs’ Vegetto but nothing happens Boo: “Hmm…Well, at any rate, I absorbed him. I have now become the strongest majin; without a doubt, there is nobody throughout the various worlds who compares to me…That’s fine…” 13. Goku and Vegeta use the Potara earrings to make Vegetto, who practically crucifies Boo, giving us this: SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 504 (DBZ 310), P9.2-3 Context: as Vegetto beats up on Boo Kaioshin-Kibito: “H-he’s strong!!! Majin Boo there is helpless!!! To think that merging with the Potara would be this incredible…!!” Elder Kaioshin: “Idiot, it’s because it was those two that they were able to go so far. Two of the top 3 masters in both the living world and afterlife have merged, after all. What’s more, two rivals have joined together. That’s definitely strongest.” Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P1.2 Context: after Vegetto outclasses Boo Vegetto: “…Well, don’t feel too bad. Even I’m surprised. To think that I’d be able to make this big a fool out of you.” Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P5.2 Context: after Vegetto destroys the Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack Vegetto: “Did you really think that kind of technique would work on me? A child thought that technique up. You’re pretty desperate, aren’t you?” Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P6.6 Context: Vegetto blocks Boo’s attacks with his legs Vegetto: “Hey, hey! What’s the matter!? My legs alone are more than enough to deal with the likes of you!” Chapter: 505 (DBZ 311), P9.5-6 Context: after Boo turns Vegetto into a candy ball, and candy-Vegetto promptly hits him Vegetto: “Sorry, my bad. Unfortunately for you Boo, it seems that somehow my strength hasn’t changed, despite me turning into this. What will you do? Your opponent is the world’s strongest candy ball! This is bad for you, isn’t it? I’m so small that it’s hard to attack me.” 14. Goku and Vegeta defuse inside Boo. They detach the boys and Piccolo from inside Boo and Vegeta wants to blast his way out, but Goku quickly tells him that they're no match even for normal Evil Boo. Nothing's changed from before, so we still have this: SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5 Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!” Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!” Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!” Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5 Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…” Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!” 15. They manage to get out of Boo's body after detaching the innocent Boo (Good Boo), which transforms Evil Boo into a buff version of himself (Buff Boo). Goku questions if his Ki is increasing, so we have this: SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Buff Boo > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?” 16. Buff Boo continues transforming and reverts to the original Boo, Pure Boo. Vegeta makes a comment on Boo's size, and Goku rejoices that they've "done it," which in context means they've weakened Boo to a level that they can handle without merging. Since they were deciding on who would fight Boo first on the Kai planet, this points to Boo being below even SSjin 2 Vegeta's level; if Boo was emitting power on par with a SSjin 3, I doubt Vegeta would have any qualms letting Goku go first. So we have this: SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Buff Boo > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: “…” Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!” Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.” Context: ‘He’s shrunk’ refers to Boo’s body, not his ki. Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5 Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara but he refuses it Goku: “…Like I thought, these…just ain’t suited for us…Even though you went out of your way to hand ‘em over…We want to fight with only our own power. I’m sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now…But he ain’t merged anymore either…“ Elder Kaioshin: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It’s not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!” Vegeta: “…Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true…Saiyan.” Kaioshins: “…!” Goku: “It’s alright. I’m tellin’ ya, don’t worry. He can’t come all the way here. We’ll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we’ll use the dragonballs later…” Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P10.2 Context: as Goku and Vegeta prepare to fight pure Boo Elder Kaioshin: “Fr-from the looks of it, they don’t intend to perform Fusion either…Shi-*…! Saiyans are so troublesome…!” Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.3 Context: as Goku and Vegeta play rock-paper-scissors to decide who fights Boo Elder Kaioshin: “Th-those dimwits! Th-they intend to fight one at a time?! They’re not gonna fight together?!” 17. Goku wins the game and faces Boo first. He transforms right to Super Saiyan 3 and a nigh-equal battle unfolds between the two (the anime goes crazy with the filler in this battle). Goku stops for a moment and Vegeta tells him that at full power, he should be able to completely obliterate Boo with Super Saiyan 3. Goku says he's been trying but hasn't had the chance yet. He also states he could've beaten Fat Boo but chose not to, giving us this: SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Buff Boo > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Fat Boo > Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6 Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…” Vegeta: “Let me see this ‘Super Saiyan 3’ thing with my own eyes…” Goku: “Is that alright? You just might not get your turn…I can say this now, but the truth is that with that fat Boo, I would have been able to defeat him at the time with Super Saiyan 3…However, I wanted the young guys to manage something…For the Earth’s sake too…” Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…” 18. Goku begins charging up and Vegeta faces Boo, but gets squashed without even hitting Boo once. As Boo is about to hurt Mr. Satan, he stops and spits out Good Boo. The two fight and even though Good Boo quickly becomes a rag doll, he does better and lasts longer than Vegeta did, even forcing Pure Boo to use more effort on him, while his regeneration powers which were going down since he was fighting another Boo. This also gives us a good place for Pure Evil Boo (the gray one), since he was stated to be stronger than Good Boo but couldn't be stronger than Fat Boo, giving us this: SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Buff Boo > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Pure Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo > Good Boo ~ Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku Supporting Quotes Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3 Narrator: “Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out…In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo…” Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4 Context: as the two Boos fight Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…" Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P12.4 Context: after good Boo fights pure Boo a little Good Boo: “…Uh oh…I kinda can’t win…” Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P6.1 Context: as pure Boo beats up on good Boo Goku: “Th-this is bad…this way it’s only a matter of time before he’s done in…” Chapter: 514 (DBZ 320), P5.3 Context: as pure Boo beats up on good Boo some more Vegeta: “…This is bad…Have you noticed, Kakarot?...The fatso’s power is falling…If it’s Boo against Boo, then he could take damage…” Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P3.1 Context: as pure Boo continues to beat up on good Boo Vegeta: “*…! Th-this is bad! The fat one is on the brink of death…” 19. Goku finally completes the Genki-Dama and fires it, but because of his diminished stamina, Pure Boo is able to hold it back. Once Goku's stamina is restored by Porunga, he's able to push the attack and finish off Boo for good. All in all, we end up with this: SSjin Vegetto > Gohan-Boo > Gotenks-Boo > Ultimate Gohan > Buff Boo > Piccolo-Boo = SSjin 3 Gotenks = Evil Boo > SSjin 2 Gotenks > SSjin Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > SSjin Gotenks > SSjin 3 Goku > Pure Boo > Fat Boo > Pure Evil Boo > Good Boo ~ Base Gotenks > SSjin 2 Majin Vegeta/Goku IV. Arguments & Counterarguments Spoiler: click to toggle If you followed along, considered the quotes, and have read the manga and didn't rely on the self-contradicting anime, then this is roughly what you would come up with. Some points people debate, like Base Gotenks's strength post-RoSaT, but overall, most people that use the manga for debates come up with something similar to this lineup. I'll go even further and address some of the points I know people, particularly Pure Boo > Evil Boo believers, will most likely bring up. 1. Inside Boo, Goku was lying to Vegeta and wanted to fuse because he didn't want to upset Vegeta with Super Saiyan 3, was afraid the strain from the form would weaken him too quickly to win the fight, and was also afraid he would remain the size of a flea. That and he didn't want to fight too hard, so he wanted an easy victory. Counter-argument a. While this is somewhat true, Goku wouldn't let himself die just to protect his friend's pride. 7 years prior on the Lookout, he blatantly told Vegeta that he was a lot stronger than him, knowing it would potentially piss him off. Even during the Boo arc, although he didn't use the form in their fight for a few interpretive reasons, it doesn't necessarily mean he was protecting Vegeta's pride. Super Saiyan 3 was a last resort, and he was trying to get Vegeta to fight alongside him and Gohan under the false pretense that they could win. During the fight with Pure Boo, Vegeta tells Goku to stop messing around and finish Boo off, and Goku basically tells him, "Man, I've been trying, but I haven't gotten the chance", effectively rendering Vegeta's understandably selfish view invalid and proving that Goku would use the form to its fullest if he really had to, despite Vegeta being right there to witness it; Vegeta even says, "So he wasn't thinking about me...", backing this up. Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…” b. Goku had no clue about the strain of the form in a living body until he was well into the fight with Pure Boo. Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2 Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3 Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…” c. There's absolutely no indication Goku thought he'd remain small if he left Boo's body. The whole context of the happenings inside Boo was that without any type of fusion, they were doomed. When Goku did try to blast a hole in Boo, he was surprised his power had changed, meaning he had no idea being that small had an effect on him when he stated Boo would kill them without Fusion/Potara. d. This is really unfounded and has no evidence to back it up. Goku states Boo would kill him even with Vegeta's help as long as they weren't merged.[/b] 2. Gohan's Ki wasn't enough for the Genki-Dama so Pure Boo can't possibly be weaker than Evil Boo. Counter-argument a. Gohan didn't donate all of his Ki, shown by how he's not winded like the earthlings. Goten and Trunks didn't fuse into Gotenks or even turn Super Saiyan, so why would Gohan be giving all of his chi? It wouldn't make any sense. It's also stated by Goku that Vegeta's chi hadn't been fully recovered after he'd been brought back to life, so it's likely that Gohan and others weren't at their best either. The Genki-Dama also collects genki, which is just one part of three of raw ki (I juggle between "chi" and "ki", but it's the same thing), as stated by Toriyama in the SEG: Story Volume. Edited by Professor Gohan**, Feb 4 2013, 05:10 PM.



~~Professor Gohan~~	Feb 4 2013, 04:28 PM Post #2
Posts: 0 Group: GTFO Member #6,938 Joined: November 2, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Goku, Gotenks, Buu Placement Part 2- by Kamikaze Pyro 3. Pure Boo was totally toying around with Goku. He didn't take the fight seriously until the Genki-Dama, and he even pushed that back. Counter-argument a. There's nothing to prove this as true. Nothing says Boo wasn't fighting at his fullest against Goku. Why would he slap Vegeta and Good Boo around but fight so evenly with Goku? He's a mindless monster, but even then it still doesn't make sense. He still has instincts, and when you're in trouble, you fight your hardest (usually), which is what Pure Boo did. He was never in any danger with Vegeta or Good Boo, but Goku actually challenged his livelihood. b. Boo holding back the Genki-Dama is in no way proof that he was stronger than Goku. It's made a point that Goku can't fire the Genki-Dama correctly because of his failing stamina. c. Boo pushing back the Genki-Dama was anime-only. In the manga, he never does this. 4. Both South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo, so when they were taken away, Boo returned to his most powerful state. Counter-argument a. This is completely false, and most likely brought about by the anime, and Viz's translation doesn't help. In the original Japanese, after Kibitoshin explains Boo's past, Elder Kaioshin ascertains that the he was finally complete and that Pure Boo is the most troublesome one. Kibitoshin then says that the heart he gained by lowering his power through absorption has returned to the way it was. Daizenshuu #7 states that only Dai Kaioshin weakened Boo[1]. Most Pure Boo supporters dismiss the Daizenshuu entry as just "guidebook crap," and dismiss the original Japanese translation as just "another fan translation" and say that Viz is the only good translation because it's official. In the Viz translation, Elder Kaioshin states that the "souls [Boo] ate tamed him," which is easy for Pure Boo supporters to say proves that both the Kais weakened Boo. But this isn't so, because even if the Japanese translation is translated by a fan (an unbiased, reliable fan at that), it's a direct translation, and not an "adaptation" like the Viz translation, so it is more accurate, whether the Pure Boo supporters want to accept that or not. Not to mention Boo being weakened is only mentioned in the Japanese version, and not in Viz, so those who use Viz over the Japanese version can't have their cake and eat it too. 5. Kibitoshin states Pure Boo is the most powerful Boo, so it must be true. Counter-argument a. This is a case of people taking the anime's word over the manga's. In the anime, Kibitoshin, Goku, and the narrator all state Pure Boo is the strongest, at least in the original Japanese version[2]. Of course in the manga, nobody says this because Boo is just the most troublesome one there. With the anime, trying to make Pure Boo the strongest leads to a lot of headaches. In the manga, it's very simple to place Pure Boo without having to twist statements around. b. Gotenks-Boo states he is the most powerful Majin to date. He has memories of his past, so it'd be a foolish mistake to say he doesn't remember being Pure Boo. Gohan-Boo also states he has become the strongest Majin, so both of them are stronger than Pure Boo by their own admission. 6. Goku was going to help Gohan fight Gotenks-Boo, so he has to be stronger than Evil Boo at least. Counter-argument a. Goku acted recklessly because his son was in danger. Elder Kaioshin tells him that he can't beat Boo even if he and Gohan fought together, and Goku admits he's right, and then brings up Fusion as an option. Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P5.5 Context: Elder Kaioshin warning Goku about recklessly going to rescue Gohan from Gotenks-absorbed Boo Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…” Vizbig, vol.9, pg.216 Goku: "Then I'm off!" Elder Kaioshin: "Son Goku! Wait!!" Goku: "Huh?!" Elder Kaioshin: "How do you plan to beat Boo? I don't think the two of you together could do it." Goku: "...Uh...um...uh...I know!! Fusion!! Gohan and I will fuse!!" 7. Goku fought Gotenks-Boo and did better than Gohan. Counter-argument a. This is anime filler. Goku never fought Gotenks-Boo in the manga, and was sweating when Boo charged him. Even in the anime, Goku couldn't get a single hit on Boo except for one Ki blast when Boo was distracted, while Gohan was able to fight evenly with Boo in the beginning of their fight. 8. Goku is stronger than Gotenks so he has to be stronger than Evil Boo. Toriyama even said it in an interview! Counter-argument a. First off, Toriyama never said such a thing. That was a fake interview made up by some fan. Any Japanese fan will tell you how fake that interview is. "Super Otaku Magazine" does not exist. b. Goku states Gotenks would be stronger than him and it's never contradicted, so it remains true. Even if Goku was stronger than Gotenks, Gotenks trained in the Room of Spirit and Time and grew immensely stronger, and would have undoubtedly surpassed Goku in power. 9. Goku wanted to bring both Gohan and Gotenks to fight Boo, so obviously he didn't think just Gohan could do it. Counter-argument a. It was more of a first-thought thing; he's stating ideas off the top of his head. Listing them both was more of a precaution in case one got absorbed again. 10. Vegeta states that Goku is the only one that can fight Pure Boo, so that must mean Goku and Pure Boo are the strongest ever. Counter-argument a. Vegeta does say this, but the context shouldn't be ignored. Gohan and the kids were dead at that time. b. If you take Vegeta's comment at face value and ignore context, that would mean SSjin 3 Goku and Pure Boo are stronger than SSjin Vegetto, which defies the entire point of Goku needing to fuse with Vegeta. 11. After the final battle, Vegeta asks Goku what they would do if Good Boo spit out another "one of those monsters", and Goku says they would train hard so they can't be beat. This must mean Pure Boo was stronger than all of them. Counter-argument a. In reality, Vegeta asked what they'd do if Boo birthed another "evil Boo" (Viz changes it to the monster line), who the English-speaking community knows as Super Boo. Gohan fought Super Boo and technically lost because he was absorbed, so what would stop that from happening a second time? That's something Vegeta didn't want happening again, since he wouldn't fuse with Goku again. 12. Goku was telling a white lie about Gotenks to give everybody false hope. Gotenks isn't stronger than Goku or Boo. Counter-argument a. This is a common excuse to keep Goku ahead of Gotenks, either due to disbelief that two little kids could combine to make someone stronger than the main character, or blatant bias against the kids/Gotenks or for Goku, but it falls apart quickly. Why would Goku leave the fate of the entire universe in someone weaker than Boo? He might not make the smartest decisions sometimes, but he would never purposefully doom the entire universe. You might bring up his decision not to kill Fat Boo in response to that, but remember he had Gotenks as a backup plan. b. Piccolo, who knew SSjin 3 Goku's power and Fat Boo's power, had no problem allowing SSjin Gotenks to fight Boo. As brought up above, he only ever feared for Gotenks's safety when Gotenks had 1 minute left to of Fusion time. c. Piccolo never denied that SSjin Gotenks was exactly what Goku said he would be. When SSj Gotenks formed, the first thing Piccolo did was comment on his power. 13. Goku wanted the boys to use the Room of Spirit and Time in order to be powerful enough to beat Fat Boo. Counter-argument a. Another common excuse for Gotenks detractors or Goku ****ers. This is easily countered by the fact that Goku specifically told Piccolo not to use the RoSaT. He said the boys would be powerful enough without it, and that the RoSaT should be saved for an emergency later in life. 14. Piccolo told the boys to train for the 1 day they had left. He wanted them to use the RoSaT. He obviously didn't think they could beat Boo. Counter-argument a. What was he supposed to do? Let them lounge around doing nothing? Training even for a little bit would still benefit the Fusion. He even says that any "little" gains the boys make will benefit the Fusion, so he clearly didn't think the boys would progress that much in 1 day, if at all. And again, he was told not to use the RoSaT, so he wasn't going to do that. 15. Goku said using the boys was a gamble, so that means he really wasn't sure Gotenks would be strong enough. Counter-argument a. His "gamble" comment wasn't about Gotenks's power. It was in direct reference to the boys being able to get the Fusion Dance down correctly in the 2 days they had allotted to them. Piccolo is the one who originally brings up this gamble, and he's speaking about time, not power, when he does so[3]. 16. Goku was holding back against Fat Boo, so he wasn't at full power. Counter-argument a. This is probably the most common argument made by those who don't believe SSjin Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) was stronger than SSjin 3 Goku. While it's true that it is never stated in the manga that someone can't suppress their power in a form they haven't mastered, it is heavily implied by the fact that nobody every does display this ability prior to mastering their form, and by Vegeta when he expresses respect and astonishment that Goku and Gohan figured out how to control Super Saiyan to the point where they were barely giving off any Ki and felt "natural" in the form. Instead of holding back power, it's more likely that Goku was holding back effort, as in pulling his punches. This is evidenced right at the beginning of Z when Raditz, who couldn't control his power, states that he'll begin using more effort in his attacks against Goku and Gohan[4]. b. Goku stated he was barely used to the form after apologizing for taking so long to transform in front of Boo. Combined with the previous point, it's very unlikely that Goku was able to hold back any power. 17. Goku could only achieve full power in Other World, so he was never at full power against Kid Boo. Counter-argument a. This is not true. It is never said nor implied that Goku can't achieve full power outside of Other World. Goku states at the beginning of his fight with Kid Boo that he was going to go all-out, then later when it's said that he could obliterate Boo with Super Saiyan 3, he admits he could've but missed his chance because he underestimated Boo's resilience and didn't account for the immense stamina drain of the form. During the process of charging up his power, Goku says that he'd gathered his power close to full, but that it was beginning to slip away from him. After Goku falls out of the form after being unsuccessful at gathering his power, he comments that the form eats up an excessive amount of Ki in a living body. Putting all of these comments together would indicate that Goku did in fact start the fight at full power, but due to his underestimation of Boo and overestimation of his abilities, he lost his window of opportunity, and his Ki was draining faster than he could gather it. Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P11.4-6 Context: as Goku prepares to fight Boo Goku: “Alrii~~iight. I’d better go all out right from the start…! If we get done in, then the entire universe will go ‘poof’…” Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6 Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!” Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.” Vegeta: “Eh?” Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.” Vegeta: “One minute?!” Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!” Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P1.6 Context: Vegeta asks Goku if he’s gathered enough ki to defeat Boo yet Goku: “I…I know..! I know, but…It’s strange… I gathered my ki close to full power, but…The ki which I al…already gathered has begun falling off…!” Chapter: 512 (DBZ 318), P10.3-5 Context: still with the ki-charging business Vegeta: “Ka…Kakarot…!! …Cut it out…! How long will it take? Do…do it now…N…not yet? Have you still not gathered the ki...!?” Goku: “Da…Damn it…Damn it…!! …It shouldn’t be…It shouldn’t be like this…!! My…my power…my power is…Fa…falling off…” he reverts from Super Saiyan 3 back into his regular state* Chapter: 513 (DBZ 319), P1.2 Context: after Goku drops out of Super Saiyan 3 Goku: “Da-dammit…When I was dead, it was no problem at all…It seems that in the end, becoming a Super Saiyan 3 with a living body eats up an excessive amount of ki…” 18. SSjin 3 Goku's power was felt across dimensions. SSjin Gotenks's pre-RoSaT power wasn't. Counter-argument a. Actually, yes, Gotenks's power was felt across dimensions like Goku's. Goku comments on not being able to sense the "kids' fused chi" during the time when SSjin Gotenks is fighting Evil Boo in the Room of Spirit and Time[5]. This means he had to have felt it beforehand to notice that it wasn't there anymore. 19. The Daizenshuu says Gotenks wasn't even stronger than Vegeta until he trained in the Room of Spirit and Time, so Goku was lying to everyone. Counter-argument a. That argument is debunked in this post and this post here. To put it bluntly, the Daizenshuu entry is both vague and incorrect in this case. [1] Daizenshuu 7, Majin Boo Entry (no longer accessible) [2]Pure Boo's Supremacy (Anime) [3] http://www.pojo.biz/board/showpost.php?p=24987691&postcount=11 [4] http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8581748&t=8348696 [5] http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8581722&t=8348696 #17 and #18 Power Struggle How big was the gap between their powers? -by Kamikaze Pyro Like the description of the spoiler says, this is to discuss the gap between #17's and #18's powers. Some believe they are equal, some believe #17 is superior, and some even believe #18 is stronger. What's the truth? Well, there is a page in the manga showing Gero's creations, and it states that #17 is indeed the stronger of the two. Here is the page: This is from the manga itself, so it isn't as if you could disregard it like some do with guidebook entries. Speaking of guidebooks, Daizenshuu #4 has two entries supporting #17 being stronger. Quote: A female type, rare among artificial humans. Judging her by her appearance will backfire severely. Being human-based, she has the ability to mother children. Though she wields less power than her twin brother No. 17, she is still enough of a warrior to overwhelm Super Saiyan Vegeta. Quote: A cool-headed artificial human who enjoys battles as if they were games. As the twin brother of No. 18, he places more importance on power. Like No. 18, he is fundamentally human-based and only his organic matter has been restructured. The few mechanical parts that are used were for his emergency deactivation controller and self-destruction device. If the emergency deactivation controller is used on the powerful No. 17 and No. 18, they become unable to move their bodies. This proves there was a gap, but not how big of a gap. To go further, we have statements from the manga. Spoiler: click to toggle Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P1.1-3 Context: after Trunks, Piccolo, Tenshinhan, and Kuririn arrive No.17: “My my, some help has arrived. Even No.18 probably won’t be able to take them all on. No choice, shall I go? Or will you go, No.16?” Chapter: 362 (DBZ 168), P8.4-6 No.17: “So why don’t you tell us who’s fighting who, while you’re at it?” No.16: “I don’t know. Neither is in my data. But one of the powers is large enough to rival you two.” No.17: “What?! Looks like Doctor Gero screwed up again. Your radar is broken. There’s no power in the world that rivals mine.” Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P5.5-7 Piccolo: “Your speed is pretty good...But your punch lacks weight.” No.17: "What? Say, who do you think you’re talking to? I’m Android No.17, the strongest in history…” The first one implies that #18 can't handle SSjin Vegeta and the other Zet Senshi. In the second, it's implied by #16 that #17 and #18 are at least somewhat close in power, enough for Piccolo to rival the both of them. #17 contradicts this and says nobody rivals him. He goes on to say later against Piccolo that he is the strongest, once again. #18's reaction to Piccolo fighting evenly with #17 should also be noted. Chapter: 368 (DBZ 174), P8.3 No.18: “He really is tough. He’s on par with No.17.” That's all we have from the manga and guidebooks as far as I know, but if someone has anything else they've found, speak up. From this, what do you think the gap is? Insignificant, noticeable, decent, large, etc.? Personally, I think the gap is at least noticeable. Gero suppressed #18's power compared to her brother's because he was too hard to control. I find it unlikely that suppressing her power, say, 5-10% more would do any good. Then there's #18's reaction to someone fighting on par with her brother. It's not much, but I take it as her being impressed that someone actually could do that (her expression lends credence to this as well), which doesn't support a meager gap. This might be a bit off-topic, but as far as #17's reaction to everybody ganging up on his twin sister, I think he just assumed they all far surpassed Gero's calculations and didn't want to risk anything (#18 didn't consider SSjin Vegeta anything "special," after all). So yeah, my thoughts anyway. Ginyu Force Information-by Super Saiyan2 The Ginyu Force is the private army of Freeza. They possess powers that are unrivaled throughout the universe. Introductory Quotes Spoiler: click to toggle Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P10.5 Great Elder: “Dende… Tell everyone…that a great unknown power is approaching Planet Namek.” Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P11.2-4 Context: Vegeta and Kuririn comment on the huge ki approaching Namek. Gohan: “In-incredible power!” Kuririn: “It’s Goku! Goku’s finally come!” Gohan: “Eh…!? I wonder…It seems like there’s more than just one…” Vegeta: “It…it can’t be…The Ginyu Special-Squad…! 1…2…3…4…5! No doubt about it…! Freeza’s called the Ginyu Special-Squad!” Chapter: 271 (DBZ 77), P12.2-4 Vegeta: “Listen, you dirty bastard…! This Ginyu Special-Squad that Freeza has called is about as…no, they could be even stronger than me! And there are five of them!! They’ll find your ball with their scouters and come to kill us all!!!” Kuririn: “N-no… It can’t be…” Vegeta: “Don’t you feel their power?!! There’s only one way!!! Make me immortal so I can fight them!!!” Nail: “He could be telling the truth… I do feel five large, evil powers…” Chapter: 272 (DBZ 78), P10.2 Vegeta: “Th-they’re on the move…! Th-they’re as fast as I’d expect! Damn it all!” Chapter: 272 (DBZ 78), P14.2 Kuririn: “Th-they’re fast…! I couldn’t tell they were approaching…” Chapter: 273 (DBZ 79), P2.3-4 Kuririn: “Yeesh… Vegeta was t-telling the truth…!! I…I’m utterly no match for them…They’ve all got unthinkably ridiculous power…” Chapter: 279 (DBZ 85), P9.8 Kuririn: “Goku…You can tell, right? How strong they are…Even if I’m healthy again thanks to the senzu, I’ll just get done in again…Sadly enough…Even you of all people won’t make any difference, Goku…Their strength is on a whole different level…” Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P11.2 Context: as Goku outclasses him and Burta Jheese: “H-how can this be?...We, the Ginyu Special-Squad…are a super-elite task force, a collection of 5 of only the best from out of the entire universe…How could a low level guy like that?…” Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P3.2 Context: after learning of Recoom and co.’s defeat from Jheese Ginyu: “You’re talking nonsense! We’re the Ginyu Special-Squad! Nobody besides Freeza exists in this world stronger than us!” Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P11.3 Context: Ginyu discusses Goku's strength Ginyu: “He could be like us, a super-gifted warrior, born as a mutant…”] Guldo: Guldo is quite obviously the weakest member of the Ginyu force. He is out of shape, and fears Gohan and Krillin. Although it is not his strength that makes him a good opponent, it is his psychic abilities. Guldo has two main techniques that were shown to us. It is heavily implied that Guldo has a power level well below 5 000, as he has trouble fighting Gohan and Krllin who are barely above 10 000. Techniques 1. Time Freeze 2. Paralysis/Telekinesis He has the ability to stop time when he holds his breathe. Time stays frozen for the amount of time that he can hold his breathe. This is a useful technique for escaping an attack, or getting behind the opposition. The problem with this attack, is that it uses up a lot of Guldo's energy. Guldo's telekinesis is used to paralyze the enemy. This was shown against Gohan and Krillin when they were completely immobilized. Guldo resorts to cowardly techniques to win battles, and this is why he is on the Ginyu force. Supporting Quotes Spoiler: click to toggle Chapter: 273 (DBZ 79), P6.1 Vegeta: “Damn it all…! So the rumors were true?...They say that Gurd can control time for just a second, allowing him to stop it…” Chapter: 273 (DBZ 79), P10.5 Vegeta: “This little snot Gurd you’re going to fight has low battle power, but uses psychic powers. Don’t let down your guard!” Chapter: 274 (DBZ 80), P4.5 Context: while having trouble fighting Gohan and Kuririn Gurd: “D-damn it…! It uses up far too much energy to attack while keeping time stopped…!” Chapter: 274 (DBZ 80), P8.4-5 Jheese: “This is unexpected. Those little squirts' battle powers surpassed 10,000." Recoom: “Hehhehhe, Gurd must have really gone pale. Just look, he's using his paralysis arts, which we hardly ever get to see.” Recoom Recoom is by far the most durable member of the Ginyu force. This was especially shown against Vegeta, when he took hit after hit, and showed no sign of weakness. The fact that he took a full power blast from Vegeta who was stated to be 30 000, says that Recoom is at least in the stomping range of Vegeta. A fair estimate on his strength would be somewhere in the low 40 000s. This is because he was also stated to never have a chance against Goku, who was suppressed into the 60 000s. Techniques 1. Eraser Gun 2. Multi Shot Recoom's signature attack was the eraser gun, which is a blast that comes from his mouth. He would have used it to kill Vegeta, had Krillin and Gohan not stepped in. The multi shot was an attack he used against Gohan, which was a series of explosive blasts. Supporting Quotes Spoiler: click to toggle Chapter: 275 (DBZ 81), P12.4 Context: Vegeta attacked Recoom all out, but it had little effect. Gohan: “H-he hardly took any damage…” Chapter: 276 (DBZ 82), P13.2 Vegeta: “Th…that rotten monster…Da-dammit…To think that he’d be so strong…I’m being treated…just like a baby…” Chapter: 276 (DBZ 82), P14.1 Kuririn: “If Vegeta gets killed, we’ll be next…There’s no doubt about it, there’s no way we can win…” Chapter: 277 (DBZ 83), P6.2 Context: after Recoom fires his Eraser Gun Kuririn: “The ground’s been wiped out…He changed the planet’s shape…Wh-what a fearsome technique…” Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P1.2 Goku: “You can’t win against me. I can tell without even fighting.” Burter Burter is the fastest member of the Ginyu force. He shows off this speed when he intercepts the dragonballs that Vegeta threw away. He is even stated to be the fastest in the universe. The only thing is that his flight speed is not the same as his battle speed. He may be the fastest in regular flight, but in battle, he is comparable to Jeice. Power wise he is likely very close to Recoom in power which is stated by Gohan. Techniques 1. Purple Spiral Flash- A team attack done with Jeice where they continuously fire blasts at the enemy. Supporting Quotes Spoiler: click to toggle Chapter: 273 (DBZ 79), P5.1 Context: Vegeta tried to throw a dragonball so far away that the Ginyu Special-Squad wouldn’t be able to find it, but Burta caught it. Ginyu: “Ahhh, I get it… Throw them so far that we won’t be able to get them, eh? Too bad Burta here is the fastest in the universe!” hapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.1 Context: Gohan doesn’t think Jheese and Burta are that strong Kuririn: "Th...that shouldn't be... Th...those guys have about the same amount of ki as th...that Recoom guy, and not even Vegeta could do anything against him...But Goku's too strong, so those guys don't look like anything special..." Gohan: "I... I suppose... But father's ki is a lot smaller than theirs..." Chapter: 282 (DBZ 88), P2.3, Burta: “W-when did you…get behind me?! I’m the fastest in the universe…” Goku: “Well then, you’d be the second fastest in the universe, wouldn’tcha?” Jeice Jeice is the fourth member of the force, and he took place in two battles; Vs Goku and Vs Vegeta. He was stated to have a power level very near Recoom's which would put him around Burter and Recoom. Techniques 1. Crusher Ball- Jeice's ultimate attack which he used in desperation against Goku. 2. Purple Spiral Flash- A team attack done with Burter, in which continuous energy blasts are shot at the opponent. Supporting Quotes Spoiler: click to toggle Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.1 Context: Gohan doesn’t think Jheese and Burta are that strong Kuririn: "Th...that shouldn't be... Th...those guys have about the same amount of ki as th...that Recoom guy, and not even Vegeta could do anything against him...But Goku's too strong, so those guys don't look like anything special..." Gohan: "I... I suppose... But father's ki is a lot smaller than theirs..." Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P5.2-7 Context: as Vegeta and Jheese fight Jheese: ”You’ve got to be kidding! There’s no way you could be any match for me!” Vegeta: “Kukkukkuh…You say that, but you’re scared, aren’t you? Scared of my battle power, now that I’ve recovered…Take a gooo—oood look on your precious scouter…” Jheese: “Scared!? Fuhahahaha, You think I’m scared of your battle power? Of piddling little Vegeta?” he checks scouter Jheese: “I'm…impossible…Da-damn it! It’s broken!” Vegeta: “Kukkukku…Do you really think so?” Captain Ginyu Ginyu is the leader of the Ginyu force, and is rightully so. He has a stated maximum power of 120 000, which is around triple any of the other members of the force. He is the closest in power to Freeza in the entire planet trade. Ginyu fights against a suppressed Goku, and seems to fight evenly with him, until Goku shows him his full power. Techniques 1. Body Change: Ginyu's signature move. He uses it to switch body's with anyone who is in his path. He successfully switched into Goku's body, but failed to use much of its power. He later tried to use his technique on Vegeta as well. Supporting Quotes Spoiler: click to toggle Chapter: 273 (DBZ 79), P2.3-6 Kuririn: “Out of all of them, that one is a whole different level of incredible…” Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P7.2 Context: to Goku, as Ginyu approaches Vegeta: “This time even you won’t be able to easily deal with this opponent.” Chapter: 283 (DBZ 89), P10.1-2 Kuririn: “H-how ‘bout it, Goku? Does it look like you can win this time…?!” Goku: “I won’t know unless I try…This guy looks like his strength is on a different level…” Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P5.2 Context: after Goku and Ginyu fight a bit Ginyu: “If you’ve gotten confident from that brief exchange just now, I’ll soon take you down a notch…The truth is that I am also the type of human that can freely alter their battle power…!” Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P5.5 Jheese: “Even if [Goku]’s battle power really is 60,000, Captain Ginyu’s maximum battle power is far above that!” Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P6.2 Context: as Ginyu powers up Goku: “This is bad!” Chapter: 285 (DBZ 91), P3.1 Jheese: "Even Ca... Captain Ginyu's highest figure is 120,000..." Chapter: 287 (DBZ 93), P2.2 Context: after Ginyu steals Goku’s body Ginyu: “Fuhahahaha…! This body’s even faster!” Chapter: 288 (DBZ 94), P12.1-3 Context: Goku encouraging Gohan and Kuririn to fight Ginyu Goku: “Th-that’s Ginyu! Don’t hesitate, take him out…! The way you are now, you definitely can’t lose! Alright…?! Blow him away…!” Ginyu: “Blow me away?...Fuhahaha…! You idiot! You say they can’t lose!? This is your former body! It’s battle power is over 180,000! There’s no way they can win!” Goku: “You’ll understand once you give it a try. That’s my body…Can you perform a Kaio-Ken, or even properly use its ki…?! You can’t put forth a large power unless your mind and body are one…!” Chapter: 288 (DBZ 94), P13.2-4 Context: Ginyu powers up in Goku’s body Ginyu: "Guhahahahaha...!!!! Jheese!! How much is my battle power?!" Jheese: ".....Twe... 23,000...." Ginyu: “Twe…23,000…only 23,000…!?” Gap Distinctions-by Brofist Some comparison gaps that may be helpful in the long fun, especially for those maybe creating power levels. Throughout the series we've different kinds of fights, fun fights, hard fights, equal fights, curbstomps, etc. I want to get quick little list down on comparison that can be used for helpful points during discussion. Gap differences 1.2x difference: Here is what we will consider the absolute smallest gap needed for what we would consider a stomping gap. It's the similar gap between Vegeta and Dodoria and thus is probably the lowest gap we know of in which one character clearly dominated another and was even capable of one shotting (though this last part may be more along the lines of amped attacks) regardless this is pretty much our basic setting of which all gaps should be balanced out to. 1.15x Difference: This is the kind of gap just below the previous one. It's the kind of gap where one opponent has a very clear advantage over another, but does not possess the power to complete dominate them in a fight. This is something like Vegeta vs Monster Zarbon (Second Fight) or potentially Perfect Cell vs SSJ Kid Gohan. These fights are marked at points where an opponent may have to utilize a bit more effort on their part (Such as Vegeta's trickery) to keep up the lead. 1.10x Difference: For these gaps, both opponents are well ready to deal damage to each other. However one of them has what is specifically shown to be an advantage over the other either at the beginning or in some time overall. Things like these might be Perfect Cell vs SSJ Goku or SSJ3 Gotenks vs Super Boo. Especially obvious with the first where both combatants fought each other to exhaustion yet specific statements indicate that Cell was a step even two steps a head of Goku. Likewise Gotenks after a while is capable of finally getting the advantage over Super Boo. 1.06-1.09x Difference: This is where we get into near equaling rivaling. These are for any lack of better words darn close fights, with most of the advantage being a small aspect to another character. For this example, SSJ Goku vs 100% Freeza works well. It's a fight where both combatants can dish out extreme damage to the other, take damage and handle themselves in a fight. But its also a fight where if you carefully look, you can see a small but distinct advantage that Goku had. Less than 1.06x Difference: These are for lack of better words, dead equal fights. These are the kind of battles like SSJ2 Goku vs SSj2 Majin Vegeta (Which is outright stated to be equal in this regard) or Saiyan Arc Vegeta vs Cui. Here winner of a match most of the time can't be distinguished by pure ki alone and at this point, an essence of skill and prowess may take hold. Quote: There's about a 1.3x gap between Vegeta and Cui. Cui: 18,000 Vegeta: 24,000 We know Dodoria holding higher rank than Cui would have a higher power level and yet was still easily handled by Vegeta. That's where we get the 1.2x difference and thus is the smallest gap we know of that actually leads to stompage. With the other gaps its just about try to relate them as closely as possible. For example let's say we have Vegeta at 24,000, Monster Zarbon is shown to have a purely good advanatage over him indicating around a 1.2x gap. Vegeta is stated to have a powerlevel around 30,000 by Jeice. That would mean Vegeta=30,000 and Monster Zarbon= 28,800. That's only a 1.06x difference and that of course will never work. It's things like these where sometimes you've got to change up some stuff, lower Zarbon a bit or raise Vegeta up a bit. Doesn't have to be a 1.15x gap exactly, might be 1.17 or 1.12x difference. Everything else is just how do the statements and feats hold up and making comparison. Edited by Professor Gohan, Jun 19 2013, 03:52 AM.



~~Professor Gohan~~	Jun 25 2013, 01:26 PM Post #3
Posts: 0 Group: GTFO Member #6,938 Joined: November 2, 2011 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Super Saiyan transformations- by Coolest Great Ape (Oozaru) A transformation achieved when a Saiyan (who still has a tail) absorbs 17 million zeno units of Blutz Waves through his or her eyes from the reflection of the sun on a planetary body. This generally occurs with a moon, but the waves can be reflected on a planet as well, as seen in Dragonball GT when Goku transforms from the reflection of the Earth, or a ball of energy made by the Saiyan, as seen in Dragonball Z when Vegeta uses one to transform during his fight on Earth with Goku. Users – Any Saiyan with a tail Golden Great Ape (Golden Oozaru) The Golden Great Ape is a Great Ape transformation that occurred when the Saiyan was in a Super Saiyan or higher form. This form is identical to a Great Ape in appearance except two attributes; golden fur, and the head hair stands up on end. Strength and speed greatly increased over a regular Oozaru due to releasing the Saiyan's dormant power. However, the Saiyan must gain control to handle this great power. -See SSJ4: Users – Goku, Vegeta, Baby Vegeta, the “Original Super Saiyan” False Super Saiyan (FSSJ) An advanced form of a basic Saiyan, resulting in an increase in strength and speed, but not quite yet a Super Saiyan. Hair stands up on end like a Super Saiyan, but hair remains original color. Eyes go completely white, and body bulks up extensively. The False Super Saiyan is merely a Kaio-Ken 100x fold. Stated by The Weekly Shonen Jump 1991, Issue #12 Users – Goku Super Saiyan (SSJ) An advanced form of Saiyan, occurring when the user has reached a very high level of power, and is usually the result of an emotional response to a situation or circumstance. The hair of the Saiyan spikes up and turns blonde, as well as the eyes turning turquoise. A golden aura replaces their natural Ki aura. The power output of a Super Saiyan is 50x the power the users original power. Users – Goku, Gohan (Teen, Adult), Goten (Kid, Teen), Trunks (Kid, Teen, Future), Vegeta, Broly, Gotenks, Gogeta, Vegetto, Vegeta Jr., and Goku Jr. Full Power Super Saiyan (FPSSJ) Other terms: Mastered Super Saiyan(MSSJ) ; Super Saiyan Grade 4 A form of Super Saiyan achieved by training extensively as a Super Saiyan, to the point where the user can remain a Super Saiyan indefinitely without using any Ki to remain in the form. The reckless and angry emotions associated with a Super Saiyan transformation are kept in check, resulting in a more strategic fighting style. Users – Goku, Gohan (Teen) during Cell saga, and all Super Saiyans during the Boo Arc Ascended Super Saiyan (ASSJ) Other terms: Ultra Super Saiyan(USSJ) ; Super Saiyan Grade 2 An advanced form of Super Saiyan, achieved through intense training in Super Saiyan form. Size and strength are greatly increased, but not so much as to weigh down the user and decrease his or her mobility. Users – Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan (USSJ) Other terms: Ultra Super Saiyan 2(USSJ2) & Super Saiyan Grade 3 An advanced form of Ascended Super Saiyan, but increasing size and strength so much that it weighs down the user, greatly decreasing mobility. If an opponent is faster than the user, the opponent could easily dodge all attacks. If a blow could be landed, however, it would be devastating. This form focuses solely increasing physical strength and size. Users – Goku (Room of Spirits and Time), Future Trunks Super Saiyan 2 (SSJ2) Other terms: Super Saiyan Grade 5 The second stage of the Super Saiyan transformation. Strength, speed, and energy output are drastically increased, and the user undergoes a few cosmetic changes. The hair of the Saiyan becomes more rigid and longer, and the aura of the user pulsates much faster, with lightning arcing around the Saiyan. The Super Saiyan 2 form is twice as powerful as the regular Super Saiyan form, resulting in a 100x increase in power output. Users – Goku, Gohan (Kid, Teen, Adult), Vegeta Super Saiyan 3 (SSJ3) The third stage of the Super Saiyan transformation. While the Ultra Super Saiyan form was focused mainly on the utilization of physical prowess, the Super Saiyan 3 form is built for the utilization of Ki energy. Due to the extreme Ki used in this form, fatigue sets in extremely fast, limiting the amount of time the user can maintain it. While muscle size does not increase, muscles appear more defined and toned. The hair of the user flows down to the waist or lower, and turns a shade darker than the Super Saiyan 1 or 2. The eyebrows disappear, and the eye ridge protrudes forward. Users – Goku, Gotenks Super Saiyan 4 (SSJ4) The fourth (and final) Super Saiyan transformation. The only way to naturally obtain this Super Saiyan form is to already be a Super Saiyan, transform into a Golden Great Ape, and be able to gain conscious control over that form, which released all of the dormant power within the Saiyan. The result is the user transforming into a Super Saiyan 4; in essence, a human form of a Golden Great Ape. Numerous cosmetic changes that differ from the traditional Super Saiyan style are also present. For instance, the hair does not turn golden, rather a blue-black hue. Red hair grows over the body of the user, and the tail is also red. Black borders appear under the eyes. This is the strongest Super Saiyan form, and only appears in Dragonball GT. Users – Goku, Vegeta, Gogeta Note: Every time Goku transformed, all of that SSJ4 power goes to his Base, thus unlocking more of his dormant power when transforming again. Note: Gohan mentioned that he needs to learn SSJ4 himself. There may be a possibility that even Saiyan hybrids can achieve the form. Legendary Super Saiyan (LSSJ) An extremely rare Super Saiyan transformation, the result of a seemingly endless supply of Ki energy. The only Saiyan known to achieve this is the “Legendary Super Saiyan”, Broly. It is thought that this Super Saiyan transformation is genetically exclusive to Broly himself, and that no other Saiyan has such an endless supply of Ki energy. A few cosmetic attributes distinguish a Legendary Super Saiyan from the regular. Most notably, the size and height of the user are increased so much that any normal Saiyan pales in comparison. The pupil and iris of the user disappear, making the eyes completely white. The speed, endurance, strength, and Ki energy are dramatically increased when Broly is in his Legendary Super Saiyan form. Users - Broly Super Saiyan God (SSJG) ??? Virtually nothing is known about Gokus latest Super Saiyan transformation. All that is known is that it is the form used by Goku to combat the God Bills. Users - Goku Edited by Professor Gohan, Jul 1 2013, 12:37 PM.



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