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| Some fusion inconsistencies; SSJ Gotenks = 1,000x SSJ Goten/Trunks? not likely | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 22 2013, 12:53 AM (625 Views) | |
| IllogicalGlory | Jan 22 2013, 12:53 AM Post #1 |
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Furious
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So the basis for this is after RoSaT, base Gotenks>SSJ Gotenks (pre), thus his SSJ3 form is bound to be ridiculous, this shall hopefully be disproven by me. Also: answering this thread with "fusion is just that extreme" will be annoying. Please don't. There are two important parts that will be compared to one another. The first is: SSJ Gotenks Pre ~ 1.2-2x SSJ3 Goku The second is: "how much does "Gohkan" have to multiply to be stronger than Buutenks?" After Buutenks is formed, Goku wants to fuse (dance) with Gohan to beat him. (source,source) We know that first, fusion-ees have to be of similar power: Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7 Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…” Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!” Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…” Edit: If no one's on par with him, that means he can't fuse. Is anyone here going to argue that 1,000x stronger is "on par"? That kind of implies that suppression wouldn't work if the gap was too big. But that's not really the point. The point is that, with numbers like this: SSJ3 Goku: 1 U. Gohan: 1,500... this fusion would be worthless against Super Buu We can assume that after fusion has occurred, if one had to suppress power to perform it, that the suppressed power cannot be accessed on top of the power that person used while fusing. Basically it's like this: Goku (Buu saga) fuses with Vegeta (saiyan saga). Goku has to suppress his power down to 18,000, thus the fusion is the same as saiyan saga Vegeta fusing with a copy of himself. Fusions are not the same being, any power that was suppressed to achieve it is not added later to the fusion's own power. Now that we've established how fusion works, lets see how well our theoretical "Gohkan" fares against Super Buu. To do this, we look at SSJ Gotenks pre: SSJ Gotenks pre: 1.5 (50% stronger than SSJ3 Goku) SSJ Goten: .05 (or so, a 20x times gap, give or take) By this, we can see that clearly, SSJ Goten is not 1/1,000th of SSJ3 Goku. If Goku fuses with U. Gohan, their power would have to be 2,000 or so after the fusion to beat Buutenks. Since Gohan has to suppress himself to 1/1000th power, I'd have to say that Gohkan would be far weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks let alone Buutenks. A fusion of two people at about .05 = 1.5, thus an increase of 30x A fusion of two people with 1 = 30 In conclusion: because of how low SSJ Gotenks pre is compared to Goten and Trunks alone, two SSJ3 Gokus fusing would be totally worthless against Super Buu. The only reason Gotenks is supposedly 1000x Goku is because he multiplied his power with SSJ3, but with Gokhan, he's got no further transformations, so... Edited by IllogicalGlory, Jan 22 2013, 06:56 AM.
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Jan 22 2013, 02:57 AM Post #2 |
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Who the hell is Gohkan? Having watched dragonball z and gt in its entirety at least 3 times, I am befuddled as to who you are referring to.
Edited by Coolest, Jan 22 2013, 02:58 AM.
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| * Crashbreaka | Jan 22 2013, 03:04 AM Post #3 |
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Captain Oblivious
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The theoretical fusion between Gohan and Goku. |
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| + Pyrus | Jan 22 2013, 03:08 AM Post #4 |
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Gohan and Goku are not close in power either, even by the most minimalist of gaps. It is outright stated not to be a small gap. There goes that. |
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Jan 22 2013, 03:10 AM Post #5 |
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If its theoretical why is it being presented as a factual reference? |
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| IllogicalGlory | Jan 22 2013, 03:17 AM Post #6 |
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Furious
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It's factual that Goku considered it, not that it happened.
Did you even read the entire post?
That's what I wrote after all that. There's more than just that wrinkle (and it is indeed a wrinkle). Edited by IllogicalGlory, Jan 22 2013, 03:21 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 22 2013, 03:26 AM Post #7 |
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That's what the whole thing is based on. |
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| IllogicalGlory | Jan 22 2013, 03:53 AM Post #8 |
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Furious
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If he can't do it (and he would know) why does he consider it? There are only two answers for that: Goku is not 1,000x weaker, or it's an inconsistency... or maybe both. If that doesn't do it for you than consider the post an analysis of what would happen if two SSJ3 Gokus fused instead. Fusion is very un-extreme: person x + person y x 15 puts SSJ Gotenks (pre) stronger than SSJ3 Goku by 50%. Edited by IllogicalGlory, Jan 22 2013, 03:54 AM.
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| + Pyrus | Jan 22 2013, 04:19 AM Post #9 |
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Perhaps you are viewing Son Goku's inability to fuse with those in Other World from the wrong angle, friend. |
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Jan 22 2013, 05:02 AM Post #10 |
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Where are you getting all of these numbers and percentages? They aren't presently stated at all. Seems like a lot of guesswork and conjecture. |
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| IllogicalGlory | Jan 22 2013, 06:49 AM Post #11 |
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Furious
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From what I've seen as the general consensus in other threads. I'm not arguing exactly what the gap is, I'm only arguing that the popular beliefs and theories are wrong. There's nothing we can work with here besides that. The general (I've read plenty of comparative lists about this matter. Search out the Goku SSJ3 vs Super Buu gap thread) consensus is: Gotenks (pre) : 1.5-2x SSJ3 Goku SSJ3 Gotenks (post): 1,000-25,000x SSJ3 Goku (incidentally, that's a 500-12,500x times increase in 15 days, which sounds like bull to me. So does Kid Buu increasing 1,300-30,000 times over in a single second by absorbing South Kaioshin, then being reduce by even more than that by absorbing Grand Kaioshin) Which angle would that be? Also don't condescend me, it's really annoying. They are not on par with Goku, and you say he's not on par with Gohan (which he's probably not, also: the thread is not about whether he can do it or not, but hey the only reason Elder Kai gave for him not doing it is that it would take too long...). I can't help but say that you're avoiding some of the points I'm making here. Secondly, are you going to argue that SSJ Goten ~ .05 SSJ3 Goku? (20x gap), because if you aren't then that means that Gotenks (pre) is about 30-40 times Trunks/Goten alone, not exactly the kind of "extremeness" necessary to create such a huge gap, right? Answer this if the other argument is not doing it for you. Then do the math on how strong an SSJ3 Goku + SSJ3 Goku fusion would be. (30-40x SSJ3 Goku, btw, not nearly enough to even tangle with even low estimates for Super Buu) Also next time, give an actual answer instead of posting some belittling comment. Edited by IllogicalGlory, Jan 22 2013, 06:54 AM.
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| + Kyouks | Jan 22 2013, 07:02 AM Post #12 |
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See, Son Goku can't stand a chance against Super Boo, who can't stand a chance against Son Gohan. Looking at that alone, disregarding Gotenks entirely, the two already aren't even close to being on par. So I'm not entirely sure what this thread is meant to prove. Is "on par" supposed to be taken as "there can be a gap but it can't be 'x' size"? Gokan would not end up weaker than Gotenks, the way you're looking at it makes no sense. Goku is stronger than Goten and Trunks. Gohan suppresses down to Goku. Essentially, 2 Gokus are fusing. Therefore, the resulting fusion is superior to Gotenks. How is it so difficult to comprehend? (Edit: Using Gotenks pre for proof? You realize he couldn't even transform into a super Saiyan at will, right?) No further transformations with Gokan? Goku can go SSJ 3. That isn't enough? Edited by Kyouks, Jan 22 2013, 11:09 AM.
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| * Crashbreaka | Jan 22 2013, 07:28 AM Post #13 |
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Captain Oblivious
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My numbers would have Gokhan about twice as strong as Gotenks, whereas Gohan himself wouldn't be as strong. I don't really see a problem either. |
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