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[DBZF Budokai] MSSJ 50% Goku vs USSJ Trunks; Participants: Tien Shinhan vs Clearin
Topic Started: Jan 21 2013, 01:39 PM (1,845 Views)
Alex D. Boss
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IF YOU ARE NOT TIEN SHINHAN, CLEARIN, A FACT CHECKER, OR A HOST DO NOT POST IN THIS TOPIC

Alright Clearin;

You can start off now , so we can begin.

Good luck Clearin :) !

(Credit to DSB for Logo)
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Just to clarify what we're debating here, I believe that 50% Goku is stronger than USSj Trunks and not just faster whilst Tien thinks USSj Trunks is stronger.

Anyway as for why I think Goku is stronger:
I'll start with the most common explanation for this. Everyone's (including Trunks) expression when Goku shows off 50% of his power. It definitely gives off the impression that they've never felt a power that massive before, which would mean it outstripped the highest shown power before that (USSj Trunks).

Vegeta also has a quote to help imply this:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P13.1-2
Context: After sensing half of Full Power Super Saiyan Goku’s max power from a distance.
Vegeta (to self): “Damn you, Kakarot… It’s always like this… He’s always a step ahead of me…! It drives me crazy…Just when I think I’ve caught up, he widens the lead again…”

This quote at the very least proves 50% Goku > ASSj Vegeta. But we do also know that Vegeta can use USSj, so by saying this he's pretty much admitting 50% Goku > His strongest power (USSj Vegeta). And of course Vegeta is stronger than Trunks so USSj Vegeta > USSj Trunks.

My next point comes from this quote:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 386 (DBZ 192), P13.4-6, P14.1-2
Context: after Trunks lead Cell away from Vegeta so Kuririn could move him.
Cell: “Can you finally fight freely? Now that Vegeta’s safe?”
Trunks: “! I didn’t expect you to knowingly let him go.”
Cell: “Naturally. I'm no longer interested in him. [My interest] is in your true power. This will be fun. The time has come for me to know the strength of my perfect form.”


Cell makes it clear that he wants to test his power and keep fighting the strongest warrior. The warrior he's most interested in at the Cell Games is Goku, and so far he only knows of 50% Goku's power (Assuming he sensed it when Goku powered up). It should be noted that Cell knew the drawbacks of the USSj form from the beginning, but even with that knowledge he showed interest in Trunks. In order for Cell to have interest in Goku that must mean Goku has so far shown the highest power out of the Z fighters right?
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I think that USSJ Trunks has a higher powerlevel than MSSJ Goku 50% , and that can also go with "Hypothetical" USSJ Vegeta himself.


USSJ is a expected transformation to break the SSJ wall (note:that wall was supposed to be SSJ2)
You can also see Trunks' hair grows and spreads in different directions. The aura no longer flows upward, but flails outward, with surges of bio-electricity becoming more frequent and prominent.

As Krillin states here:

Chapter: 383 (DBZ 189), P6.2, P7.1-2
Context: after saying perfect Cell is hiding his true power
Kuririn: “Just like you are, Trunks…[ ] I suppose Vegeta hasn’t noticed just due to the way he is, but I can tell somehow…You’re…restraining yourself for Vegeta…You’ve surpassed the wall which Vegeta couldn't overcome…Am I wrong?

As we see , Trunks becomes so strong that he believes himself that he becomes stronger than Cell ( the same Cell who fought Goku) and Krillin saying that Trunks is really confident to beat him.

Chapter: 386 (DBZ 192), P4.4-5
Context: Trunks tells Kuririn he won't need a senzu for his fight with Cell
Trunks: “Because I will definitely win.
Kuririn: “He’s incredibly confident.”

Now to a great point of view , Trunks was holding back against Cell because of Vegeta's presence on the battlefield , when Krillin takes Vegeta away . Trunks now fights freely and Cell is shocked how Trunks's power is greater than himself:


Chapter: 386 (DBZ 192), P13.4-6, P14.1-2
Context: after Trunks lead Cell away from Vegeta so Kuririn could move him.
Cell: “Can you finally fight freely? Now that Vegeta’s safe?”
Trunks: “! I didn’t expect you to knowingly let him go.”
Cell: “Naturally. I'm no longer interested in him. [My interest] is in your true power. This will be fun. The time has come for me to know the strength of my perfect form.”

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P1.3, P2.1-3
Trunks: “What you’re about to see now…is my true power!!!”
Cell: “I see…It truly is magnificent power…You easily surpass me…But you can’t win against me like that…Absolutely not…”

Cell admits himself that Trunks's power is greater than himself , but says that he can't win (we know that Cell refers to speed but I will add that in the end)

This is from Piccolo himself:

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P3.5.
Piccolo: “Absolutely incredible power! It’s even greater than Cell’s…! Un-unbelievable…!“

Conclusion: Now that Cell already knew about lacking at speed , Trunks can't hit him while being stronger:

387 (DBZ 193), P14.1-4
Context: Trunks can't hit Cell in his Grade III form
Trunks: “Im-impossible…! This is impossible…! Why can’t I hit him…?!”
Cell: “You’re such a greenhorn…So you didn’t even realize this would happen?...You said you’d show me your true power, but to think that you’d just use a transformation that relies even more on power…This sort of transformation is simple enough…”

Trunks is focused on more power , while Goku says more power is not the only thing:

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P10.3, P13.1-4
Context: Goku just achieved Super Saiyan Grade III for the first time.
Gohan: “Ab-absolutely incredible power! You’ll definitely be able to defeat Cell like this!”
[ ]
Goku: “I can’t win like this…Probably not…[ ] With my muscles swelled up like this, my power greatly increases, but it kills my speed. Huge power doesn’t mean anything if I can’t hit my opponent…And it uses up energy at too intense a rate. Balance-wise, regular Super Saiyan is best. I know that well enough…

Goku trains to be a MSSJ and fights very well at his 100% against FP Cell @Goku , while he couldn't keep up with the same Cell who fought Trunks at his 50% form.

Chapter: 388 (DBZ 194), P1.3
Cell: “Nothing can come from this sort of transformation that only powers you up…You’re an idiot…”

I think Trunks's power is bigger than MSSJ Goku at 50% , since Goku admits to Korin (who never saw Cell nearing FP , only saw the Cell against Trunks ) that he is no match against him , while Trunks was stated to be above the same Cell.
Edited by Alex D. Boss, Jan 21 2013, 03:23 PM.
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Wait before I go any further I need to ask, do you think Cell used the same power to fight Goku as he did to fight Trunks?
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Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:06 PM
Wait before I go any further I need to ask, do you think Cell used the same power to fight Goku as he did to fight Trunks?


Cell fighting Trunks ~ Cell holding back against Goku MSSJ 50%
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Okay well at this point I need to point out that nothing truly supports either of those things. Nothing says Goku was at 50% during their warm up, and nothing stated that Cell wasn't using more power than he did at Trunks. Of course nothing supports that both of these are wrong either. Which is why we go back to everyone's reaction to 50% Goku, which implies that 50% Goku > USSj Trunks, and that would mean that Cell used more power if Goku was using 50% during the warm up.

Whilst this is hardly any more than guessing, to say Cell was putting out more power because of implications that half of Goku was stronger than USSj Trunks is a little more credible than saying Cell was using the exact same power with no evidence
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Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:15 PM
Okay well at this point I need to point out that nothing truly supports either of those things. Nothing says Goku was at 50% during their warm up, and nothing stated that Cell wasn't using more power than he did at Trunks.


Goku being 50% is the most logical way to state , as he powers up for Korin to check out how strong he is:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.4-5
Context: After powering up and almost destroying Karin’s tower…
Goku: “That just now was about half power. What do you think?”
Karin: “Half power…?! What a fearsome guy you are…How strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”

This is Goku 50% (half power) , and says already that he is no match for Cell , while Trunks was confident to beat the same Cell Goku saw.

Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:15 PM
Of course nothing supports that both of these are wrong either. Which is why we go back to everyone's reaction to 50% Goku, which implies that 50% Goku > USSj Trunks, and that would mean that Cell used more power if Goku was using 50% during the warm up.


You can explain that in a variety of ways. It could have to do with the fact that Trunks, at the time, was still under the impression that Goku could pull off another super transformation, aside of the power he was already putting out when powering up. That is, until Vegeta told him off and explained to him exactly what it is Goku had done. I think of Trunks reaction as more of a surprise, rather than it being a "holy mother, I'm completely being blown away here", kind of thing.

There's also the fact that Cell admitted that Trunks surpassed his power by a wide margin, whereas Goku's 50% power was said to be Korin to be below Cell's power.

Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:15 PM
Whilst this is hardly any more than guessing, to say Cell was putting out more power because of implications that half of Goku was stronger than USSj Trunks is a little more credible than saying Cell was using the exact same power with no evidence


Chapter: 397 (DBZ 203), P14.4
Context: after fighting with Goku for awhile
Cell: “That should be enough warm-up exercise…”

Cell is suppressed here , so he should be atleast below fighting Trunks@ or just as strong.

And we know that Goku fought par against this Cell , while Trunks was able to damaga Cell hard when he could hit him.
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Quote:
 
Goku being 50% is the most logical way to state , as he powers up for Korin to check out how strong he is:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P10.4-5
Context: After powering up and almost destroying Karin’s tower…
Goku: “That just now was about half power. What do you think?”
Karin: “Half power…?! What a fearsome guy you are…How strong will you become before you’re satisfied…?!”

This is Goku 50% (half power) , and says already that he is no match for Cell , while Trunks was confident to beat the same Cell Goku saw.

Just because Goku powered up to 50% for Korin does not mean he used that exact same power vs Cell.
Also Goku and Korin both knew Cell hadn't yet shown his true power when they were comparing him to Goku:
Quote:
 
Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P13.5-6, P14.1-3
Context: After Goku checks out perfect Cell's power
Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”


Quote:
 
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P11.1-7
Goku: “But how am I compared to Cell?!”
Karin: “Hmm… You always ask the most difficult questions… As I said, this is only speculation…but honestly…I’m afraid Cell is still a bit stronger.”


Korin also says "He hasn't shown his true powers, but I have a sense." in Viz but seems to be missing from Herms strength checker unless I missed it.

Quote:
 
You can explain that in a variety of ways. It could have to do with the fact that Trunks, at the time, was still under the impression that Goku could pull off another super transformation, aside of the power he was already putting out when powering up. That is, until Vegeta told him off and explained to him exactly what it is Goku had done. I think of Trunks reaction as more of a surprise, rather than it being a "holy mother, I'm completely being blown away here", kind of thing.

Vegeta had told Trunks that Goku and Gohan didn't plan to use another form before they were shocked at Goku's power, not after.

Quote:
 
There's also the fact that Cell admitted that Trunks surpassed his power by a wide margin, whereas Goku's 50% power was said to be Korin to be below Cell's power.

Cell was talking about his current power output, unless you want to claim USSj Trunks > Full Power Perfect Cell. In order for this to be true you'd need to also have USSj Trunks above 100% MSSj Goku and MSSj Gohan. If you do believe this then I can go into detail about why that doesn't make sense.

Also Korin knew Goku was only using half his power so he'd be comparing 100% Goku to his estimation of Cell.

Quote:
 
Chapter: 397 (DBZ 203), P14.4
Context: after fighting with Goku for awhile
Cell: “That should be enough warm-up exercise…”

Cell is suppressed here , so he should be atleast below fighting Trunks@ or just as strong.

And we know that Goku fought par against this Cell , while Trunks was able to damaga Cell hard when he could hit him.

You haven't actually proved that Cell was using the same power during that warm up as he did agaisnt Trunks. I personally think he was using more power due to the fact Trunks' reaction to MSSj Gohan implied inferiority, which would mean 50% Goku has more power than Cell and thus Cell needs to put out more power in that warm up. Also Trunks never hit Cell in the manga.
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Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:55 PM

Just because Goku powered up to 50% for Korin does not mean he used that exact same power vs Cell.
Also Goku and Korin both knew Cell hadn't yet shown his true power when they were comparing him to Goku:


Korin sensed Cell's powerlevel when fighting Trunks , and Goku used half of his power , which means Goku already at 50% isn't close to Cell's current state


Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:55 PM
Korin also says "He hasn't shown his true powers, but I have a sense." in Viz but seems to be missing from Herms strength checker unless I missed it.


Goku true power is irrelevant here , since Korin only saw Goku's half power and its already below Cell's current state.


Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:55 PM
Cell was talking about his current power output, unless you want to claim USSj Trunks > Full Power Perfect Cell. In order for this to be true you'd need to also have USSj Trunks above 100% MSSj Goku and MSSj Gohan. If you do believe this then I can go into detail about why that doesn't make sense.

Also Korin knew Goku was only using half his power so he'd be comparing 100% Goku to his estimation of Cell.


Cell's full power output was 'fake chi' , no one ever saw Cell's full power that point , neither Trunks,Goku or Korin. Thats how Trunks was stated to be above this Cell , while Goku was not supposed to be 'at 50%' against suppressed Cell


Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 04:55 PM
You haven't actually proved that Cell was using the same power during that warm up as he did agaisnt Trunks. I personally think he was using more power due to the fact Trunks' reaction to MSSj Gohan implied inferiority, which would mean 50% Goku has more power than Cell and thus Cell needs to put out more power in that warm up. Also Trunks never hit Cell in the manga.


Why should Cell be stronger than the previous fight , if he is only warming up against 50% SSJ Goku?
SSJ Goku 50% only kept up with speed , not with power , it was never stated. Thats why we only know about Trunks's power being higher than Goku's.


Edited by Alex D. Boss, Jan 21 2013, 06:13 PM.
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Quote:
 
Korin sensed Cell's powerlevel when fighting Trunks , and Goku used half of his power , which means Goku already at 50% isn't close to Cell's current state

There's one problem with this: Both Goku and Korin comment on how Cell hasn't shown his true power yet. They're not commenting on his current power, they're comparing on their estimates to his full power.

Quote:
 
Goku true power is irrelevant here , since Korin only saw Goku's half power and its already below Cell's current state.

Korin only saw 50% of Goku's full power but surely he would have known to double what he felt in order to tell Goku he didn't have a chance. He's not gong to compare half of Goku's power and tell Goku he has no chance without putting any thought into how FP Goku would do. He was comparing Goku's full power (Double the power he told Korin was 50%) to his own estimated of Cell's full power.

Quote:
 
Cell's full power output was 'fake chi' , no one ever saw Cell's full power that point , neither Trunks,Goku or Korin. Thats how Trunks was stated to be above this Cell , while Goku was not supposed to be 'at 50%' against suppressed Cell

Goku and Korin both knew Cell wasn't at full power, and stated so. I provided the quotes in previous a post.

Quote:
 
Why should Cell be stronger than the previous fight , if he is only warming up against 50% SSJ Goku?

Because based on everyones reaction to Goku powering up, Goku is stronger than USSj Trunks, which means Cell has to be stronger to fight him ;)
Can you actually point to any proof that Cell warming up agaisnt Goku used the same power as he did agaisnt USSj Trunks?
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Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 06:39 PM
There's one problem with this: Both Goku and Korin comment on how Cell hasn't shown his true power yet. They're not commenting on his current power, they're comparing on their estimates to his full power.


Cell never showed his FP like I said before , so it has to be his current state , and Korin only guessed about Cell's power , he didn't know for sure

Karin: “Hmm… You always ask the most difficult questions… As I said, this is only speculation…but honestly…I’m afraid Cell is still a bit stronger.”


Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 06:39 PM
Goku and Korin both knew Cell wasn't at full power, and stated so. I provided the quotes in previous a post.


Thats what we both know that Cell wasn't at FP , but Korin only speculated the power of Cell and said he is a little bit stronger , while Cell is far above Goku if we speak about FP...

Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 06:39 PM
Because based on everyones reaction to Goku powering up, Goku is stronger than USSj Trunks, which means Cell has to be stronger to fight him ;)


No one said that Goku>Trunks 3rd Grade , Vegeta only shocked being surpassed. Cell fights Goku who should be supposed to be the strongest , Goku who supposed not transforming as the same form as Trunks did.

Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 06:39 PM
Can you actually point to any proof that Cell warming up agaisnt Goku used the same power as he did agaisnt USSj Trunks?


I have one point you should counter if you can , try it:

Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P13.5-6, P14.1-3
Context: After Goku checks out perfect Cell's power
Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.

This is when they face-off. Now as you can see , Cell was just standing there with Goku , do you think that Cell would power up at this point? I don't think so.. why? Because this is the same Cell who just fought Trunks and have no reason to be power up more.

Goku looked at Cell's current state , and admits that he would lose

And this is the USSJ Trunks who said this:

Chapter: 386 (DBZ 192), P4.4-5
Context: Trunks tells Kuririn he won't need a senzu for his fight with Cell
Trunks: “Because I will definitely win.”
Kuririn: “He’s incredibly confident.”

This is the Cell who fought Trunks said this :

Cell: “I see…It truly is magnificent power…You easily surpass me…But you can’t win against me like that…Absolutely not…”

And this is the Piccolo who said this:

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P3.5.
Piccolo: “Absolutely incredible power! It’s even greater than Cell’s…! Un-unbelievable…!“

Trunks's power can be bigger and bigger , but like Cell said before , you need speed to win the battle:

Chapter: 388 (DBZ 194), P1.3
Cell: “Nothing can come from this sort of transformation that only powers you up…You’re an idiot…”


Edited by Alex D. Boss, Jan 21 2013, 07:35 PM.
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Quote:
 
Cell never showed his FP like I said before , so it has to be his current state , and Korin only guessed about Cell's power , he didn't know for sure

Karin: “Hmm… You always ask the most difficult questions… As I said, this is only speculation…but honestly…I’m afraid Cell is still a bit stronger.”

Korin wouldn't need to speculate if he assumed Cell's full power was the one he used agaisnt Trunks. Both Goku and Korin knew Cell had more power to show, but neither knew exactly how much it was. Korin himself admits Cell hasn't shown his full power yet.

Why do you think Goku went to Korin and not just asked Trunks, Piccolo, Krillin or Vegeta how well he'd do agaisnt Cell? All of which have had more personal experiences with Cell's power. Korin must have some kind of ability to sense hidden Ki.

Quote:
 
Thats what we both know that Cell wasn't at FP , but Korin only speculated the power of Cell and said he is a little bit stronger , while Cell is far above Goku if we speak about FP...

I'm not saying Goku and Cell are close, I'm just saying both Korin and Goku knew Cell wasn't at full power so they wouldn't be comparing his current power to Goku.

Quote:
 
No one said that Goku>Trunks 3rd Grade , Vegeta only shocked being surpassed. Cell fights Goku who should be supposed to be the strongest , Goku who supposed not transforming as the same form as Trunks did.

Vegeta admitted to being surpasses is even better than Trunks doing so since Vegeta is stronger than Trunks. Besides why would they be surprised if Goku was showing off less power than they'd already all sensed or even given off before? Their expressions are a clear sign that this is a new unseen power to them.

Quote:
 
I have one point you should counter if you can , try it:

Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P13.5-6, P14.1-3
Context: After Goku checks out perfect Cell's power
Goku: “…Frankly, I didn’t think he would get so incredible…I don’t have any idea just how strong he could get if he felt like it…I won’t know unless I try, but I think I probably can’t win the way I am now.”

This is when they face-off. Now as you can see , Cell was just standing there with Goku , do you think that Cell would power up at this point? I don't think so.. why? Because this is the same Cell who just fought Trunks and have no reason to be power up more.

This quote just helps my own point. Goku states that he has no idea how strong Cell really is. Once again - he is not comparing himself to the current power Cell is putting out.

Quote:
 

And this is the USSJ Trunks who said this:

Chapter: 386 (DBZ 192), P4.4-5
Context: Trunks tells Kuririn he won't need a senzu for his fight with Cell
Trunks: “Because I will definitely win.”
Kuririn: “He’s incredibly confident.”

This is the Cell who fought Trunks said this :

Cell: “I see…It truly is magnificent power…You easily surpass me…But you can’t win against me like that…Absolutely not…”

And this is the Piccolo who said this:

Chapter: 387 (DBZ 193), P3.5.
Piccolo: “Absolutely incredible power! It’s even greater than Cell’s…! Un-unbelievable…!“

Trunks's power can be bigger and bigger , but like Cell said before , you need speed to win the battle:

Chapter: 388 (DBZ 194), P1.3
Cell: “Nothing can come from this sort of transformation that only powers you up…You’re an idiot…”

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make with this block of quotes. I know USSj Trunks had more power than suppressed Cell, and I also know speed is important in a battle. None of these help with 50% Goku vs USSj Trunks though.

(Btw when does this end? Is there a specific date? Because it seems like we're just going in circles here)
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Clearin
Jan 21 2013, 07:51 PM
(Btw when does this end? Is there a specific date? Because it seems like we're just going in circles here)
This'll end whenever one of you people see it fit to end, and the other agrees (I s'pose you might want to ask Tien to end it now, if that's the case), or this'll end in about 2 days from now if that doesn't happen.
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Do you believe that Cell wasn't suppressed against MSSJ 50% Goku ??

There is nothing stated that Cell ever powered up against Goku 50% , so he stays like when he fought Trunks.

When goku powers up to 50%, vegeta admits that goku has surpassed him but trunks doesn't say anything? At cell games, no one stated that goku is using less power considering they sensed him earlier.

Krillin seems to imply that he knows Goku was not showing max power right there during the warm up.

Thats what I mean by Trunks> Suppressed Cell , while everyone was shocked when Goku said he doesn't stand a chance.

MSSJ 50% Goku vs Cell
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Tien Shinhan
Jan 21 2013, 08:05 PM
Do you believe that Cell wasn't suppressed against MSSJ 50% Goku ??
Of course I believe he was. Cell never went full power until he fought SSj2 Gohan. But I'm saying that he wasn't necessarily using the same amount of power as he used vs Trunks.

Quote:
 
There is nothing stated that Cell ever powered up against Goku 50% , so he stays like when he fought Trunks.

I disagree with this. In my opinion since there are hints that 50% Goku > USSj Trunks it means Cell had to be stronger.

Quote:
 
When goku powers up to 50%, vegeta admits that goku has surpassed him but trunks doesn't say anything? At cell games, no one stated that goku is using less power considering they sensed him earlier.

Vegeta saying Goku has surpassed him is even better than Trunks saying it because Vegeta is stronger than Trunks. Basically if Vegeta says it then it automatically applies to Trunks too since Vegeta does have USSj.

I don't really have a problem with Goku using 50% during the warm up by the way. I know nothing really says that's how much he used but it doesn't help or hinder me and it's what I choose to go with.

Quote:
 
Thats what I mean by Trunks> Suppressed Cell , while everyone was shocked when Goku said he doesn't stand a chance.

And once again I'm going to say this:
In my opinion the Cell everyone was comparing Goku to was stronger than the Cell that Trunks was superior too. This is the part where our views differ drastically.

I think that when Cell said he was weaker than Trunks he was comparing Trunks to the power he was using at the time. Meanwhile the power Korin and Goku compared Goku to was a not yet seen power that was above USSj Trunks.


So do you want to end now or keep going? I'm happy either way.
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