SSJ Future Gohan vs. Piccolo (Android saga)

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SSJ Future Gohan vs. Piccolo (Android saga)
Tweet Topic Started: Jan 16 2013, 11:53 PM (4,083 Views)
+ Kyouks	Jan 19 2013, 10:01 AM Post #31
Posts: 10,305 Group: Elite Member Member #8,102 Joined: August 11, 2012 Gender Other Country South Africa Favourite Anime Hentai What Browser do you use? The best one Favourite Manga They all suck	Nah, I'd say the future androids wreck Piccolo. Only Vegeta and Goku are in that tier.



Nanho	Jan 19 2013, 10:53 AM Post #32
Posts: 464 Group: Probation Member #8,818 Joined: January 6, 2013	Quote: Quote: Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3 Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids. Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…” ^There, that's before the 3 years. And just to show just the Z Fighters are aware of Trunks' major disadvantage against the 'droids- But this is way before he meets goku. Quote: Quote: Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3 Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…” Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4 Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something… Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…” Hmm that part doesnt fit in well. you sure he said that? on the manga I read he didint say that part bolded, but then again the one I'm using could be poorly translated. Quote: It isn't stated that Piccolo > Yardrat Goku. But the fight with #20 is the first time the thought of the Z Fighters becoming too strong comes up. This means that Piccolo believes that #20 might be able to beat Trunks with ease, like how Trunks described the future androids. And Piccolo believes that he and the Super Saiyans have possibly grown too powerful for that kind of foe. If Piccolo is weaker than post-Yardrat Goku and Trunks (@ Freeza), then the possibility of him having gotten too powerful is non-existent, which contradicts what he said. But he wasnt sure whether he did get too strong or whether the andriods were much weaker than expected; His words were ''Maybe you werent as strong as we thought..Or maybe we just became to strong''. But yeah what said does make sense. why he would say that last bit if he wasnt comparing himself trunks? Maybe it just bad writing... Because what kami says to piccolo seems to imply hes much weaker: Kami: They defeated Trunks who defeated frieza and his father. They even beat Vegeta who was stronger than trunks. Now, if Piccolo was stronger than that trunks(who fought frieza), then that would make him way stronger than frieza. So why would kami use frieza as a gauge of trunks current strengh, as though friezas power was still that impressive? Why not have him say ''they defeated trunks whos much stronger than you, piccolo, and they beat vegeta whos much stronger than trunks''? Similarly, why ,with dbz tendency of mentioning PL, would tien say this: ''Hes the guy who defeated frieaza easily yet couldnt do a thing against the cyborgs'' and not this: ''He defeated frieza a few years back and hes stronger now! yet he couldn't do a thing against the cyborgs''? wouldnt that put their powerlevels at a proper distant to which you guys are suggesting? Edited by Nanho, Jan 19 2013, 11:11 AM.



MrTsoi	Jan 19 2013, 10:58 AM Post #33
What? You wannah peace of me? Posts: 1,338 Group: Member Member #7,834 Joined: June 25, 2012 Gender Male Country Netherlands Favourite Anime Drrr, Danhi Koukesai No Nichijou, Oran Highschool, Dragonball What Browser do you use? Google Chrome Favourite Manga Spam section	Gohan was busy trying too save the world... By increasing little by little... eventually he might have surpassed the androids in years too come but that wasn't the case since he didn't have the the luxury of training space... If only he had more time and trunks would have transformed they would have won if not destroyed one of them at least.... It would be a cold day if cell decided too join the fight since he does follow the androids... Piccolo wins but the gap is slightly bigger than i expected... Edited by MrTsoi, Jan 19 2013, 10:58 AM.
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Alex D. Boss	Jan 19 2013, 02:20 PM Post #34
Posts: 8,688 Group: Probation Member #8,536 Joined: November 8, 2012 Gender Male Country Canada	Trunks increased from Trunks saga too , there is no way he stays the same as Trunks saga , otherwise why would he come? Piccolo states that SSJ's are stronger than him , Vegeta is stronger than Goku , and Trunks is below those 2 , and Piccolo is below Trunks , not that much but a little but below. Chapter: 354 (DBZ 160), P4.1 Context: after No.17 knocks out Trunks Kuririn: “O-one hit..! And he was a Super Saiyan…!” When Piccolo got K.O , it was normal , but when Trunks gets K.O , Krillin is shocked. Trunks>Piccolo , simple. Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4 Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…” Trunks is near Goku and Vegeta , Tien states this. A Fact. They didn't say nothing about Piccolo while Trunks was a surprise. This proves that Trunks is above Piccolo. Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.2 Context: after Kuririn apologies for not joining the fight with No.17 and No.18 Piccolo: “Don’t worry about it. Even Trunks as a Super Saiyan was done in with basically one blow. It wouldn’t have made any difference if you had come.” Piccolo admits , that even Trunks 'who is above him' was defeated so easily Krillin states Tien states Piccolo states Trunks>Piccolo. Now Piccolo> SSJ Yardrat Goku Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P6.1-2 Context: after Piccolo says that only those with confidence in their abilities should come battle the androids Vegeta: “Don’t make me laugh. Aren’t you’re the one with the least confidence?" Piccolo: “What was that? You want to try me?” This looks strange , but its a signal how strong Piccolo became and can increase more and more. As Piccolo was confident to train to become stronger than SSJ Yardat Goku , because he tought that the Androids would be stronger than Goku himself. Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4 Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…” Krillin states here , that Piccolo became just as strong as the other SSj's , while he was just a namek. If he is close to the SSj's , that means it puts him automatically above SSJ Yardat Goku. SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku > SSJ Trunks > Piccolo > SSJ Yardrat Goku > Piccolo Suppressed > Cui Edited by Alex D. Boss, Jan 19 2013, 02:22 PM.



+ Kyouks	Jan 19 2013, 06:58 PM Post #35
Posts: 10,305 Group: Elite Member Member #8,102 Joined: August 11, 2012 Gender Other Country South Africa Favourite Anime Hentai What Browser do you use? The best one Favourite Manga They all suck	Nanho Jan 19 2013, 10:53 AM Quote: Quote: Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3 Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids. Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…” ^There, that's before the 3 years. And just to show just the Z Fighters are aware of Trunks' major disadvantage against the 'droids- But this is way before he meets goku. Before, yes, but not way before. There's little difference between that one and the Trunks killing Freeza, if any at all. Nanho Jan 19 2013, 10:53 AM Quote: Quote: Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3 Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…” Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4 Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something… Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…” Hmm that part doesnt fit in well. you sure he said that? on the manga I read he didint say that part bolded, but then again the one I'm using could be poorly translated. Are you using the online fanslations? These come from a guy who translated the original Japanese manga, and there's little paraphrasing if any at all like fan translations or the Viz manga. It isn't perfect, of course, but it's accurate. Nanho Jan 19 2013, 10:53 AM Quote: It isn't stated that Piccolo > Yardrat Goku. But the fight with #20 is the first time the thought of the Z Fighters becoming too strong comes up. This means that Piccolo believes that #20 might be able to beat Trunks with ease, like how Trunks described the future androids. And Piccolo believes that he and the Super Saiyans have possibly grown too powerful for that kind of foe. If Piccolo is weaker than post-Yardrat Goku and Trunks (@ Freeza), then the possibility of him having gotten too powerful is non-existent, which contradicts what he said. But he wasnt sure whether he did get too strong or whether the andriods were much weaker than expected; His words were ''Maybe you werent as strong as we thought..Or maybe we just became to strong''. But yeah what said does make sense. why he would say that last bit if he wasnt comparing himself trunks? Maybe it just bad writing... Because what kami says to piccolo seems to imply hes much weaker: Kami: They defeated Trunks who defeated frieza and his father. They even beat Vegeta who was stronger than trunks. Now, if Piccolo was stronger than that trunks(who fought frieza), then that would make him way stronger than frieza. So why would kami use frieza as a gauge of trunks current strengh, as though friezas power was still that impressive? Why not have him say ''they defeated trunks whos much stronger than you, piccolo, and they beat vegeta whos much stronger than trunks''? Similarly, why ,with dbz tendency of mentioning PL, would tien say this: ''Hes the guy who defeated frieaza easily yet couldnt do a thing against the cyborgs'' and not this: ''He defeated frieza a few years back and hes stronger now! yet he couldn't do a thing against the cyborgs''? wouldnt that put their powerlevels at a proper distant to which you guys are suggesting? Freeza was the last giant threat, and he was hyped up quite a lot. Despite the story's progressive nature, the dude gets mentioned even in the Boo Saga when Kaioshin uses him to gauge his own power, and Goku acts like it's a big deal. I wouldn't think too much on it. The reason Kami doesn't bring up Piccolo is most likely because Toriyama has already done so, but through another character - Piccolo himself (when Piccolo tells Krillin something along the lines of "don't sweat it, even Trunks got beaten easily"...'even' Trunks implying Trunks' superiority). Besides, Piccolo (possibly) having gotten too strong definitely doesn't fit if he's weaker than Freeza. Tien brings up Freeza because Freeza is still an impressive power to him, who is totally outclassed by Trunks, who is totally outclassed by the present androids. It illustrates the difference between Tien and the androids much better than it would if Tien had brought up Piccolo instead. And even though Tien doesn't mention a power increase, Tien already implies that Trunks has gotten stronger by implying that Trunks and Vegeta are in a similar tier, and Vegeta is suggested to be somewhere in the future androids' realm of power, which fits with Trunks now being able to fight the androids "fairly well," which makes a power-up mandatory on Trunks' part..if he does get a power up, then there are just a few confusing lines here and there, but if he doesn't get one, then the majority of the lines that imply things about a character's strength won't make sense.



Nanho	Jan 19 2013, 08:34 PM Post #36
Posts: 464 Group: Probation Member #8,818 Joined: January 6, 2013	Quote: Trunks increased from Trunks saga too , there is no way he stays the same as Trunks saga , otherwise why would he come? I think your missing the whole reason why he came; The whole purpose of him going back in time was to prevent goku from dieing before the andriods came. He felt that with gokus help things would change. And Remember he said the andriods in his time werent that far off from him. so when he came back, he probably came back with the idea of teaming up with Them. Quote: Trunks is near Goku and Vegeta , Tien states this. A Fact. Tien doesnt state hes near. hes just simply pointing out that a super saiyan wouldnt be enough... Anyways, trunks only needed ONE hit from 17 while vegeta was giving 18 a somewhat good fight. And both 17 and 18 are twins, their difference in power would be marginal if any. Quote: Chapter: 336 (DBZ 142), P6.1-2 Context: after Piccolo says that only those with confidence in their abilities should come battle the androids Vegeta: “Don’t make me laugh. Aren’t you’re the one with the least confidence?" Piccolo: “What was that? You want to try me?” This looks strange , but its a signal how strong Piccolo became and can increase more and more. As Piccolo was confident to train to become stronger than SSJ Yardat Goku , because he tought that the Androids would be stronger than Goku himself. Nah, he would know a supper sayian would be out of reach(unless he fused with kami). He was most likely just training to support goku. Quote: Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4 Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…” Krillin states here , that Piccolo became just as strong as the other SSj's , while he was just a namek. If he is close to the SSj's , that means it puts him automatically above SSJ Yardat Goku. That statement only implies that his ''strengh'' was not far off from a supersayian. And I think its likely he was comparing him to any super saiyan in general.. Edited by Nanho, Jan 19 2013, 08:39 PM.



Alex D. Boss	Jan 19 2013, 09:07 PM Post #37
Posts: 8,688 Group: Probation Member #8,536 Joined: November 8, 2012 Gender Male Country Canada	Nanho Jan 19 2013, 08:34 PM I think your missing the whole reason why he came; The whole purpose of him going back in time was to prevent goku from dieing before the andriods came. He felt that with gokus help things would change. And Remember he said the andriods in his time werent that far off from him. so when he came back, he probably came back with the idea of teaming up with Them. Trunks didn't come for Goku's health lol , he came for fighting the droids as he points out and states that he increased power last 3 years and it would make a different with a healthy Goku and Vegeta. Nanho Jan 19 2013, 08:34 PM Tien doesnt state hes near. hes just simply pointing out that a super saiyan wouldnt be enough... Do you have problem with reading? Tien states that Trunks isn't different from Goku and Vegeta , meaning he isn't far below them both , meaning he is near them. Nanho Jan 19 2013, 08:34 PM Anyways, trunks only needed ONE hit from 17 while vegeta was giving 18 a somewhat good fight. And both 17 and 18 are twins, their difference in power would be marginal if any. Vegeta wasn't giving a fight against 18 , 18 toyed with him all along. Piccolo admits inferiority to Trunks with pointing "even Trunks as a SSJ couldn't beat them' meaning that the the 3 ssj's > Piccolo. Nanho Jan 19 2013, 08:34 PM Nah, he would know a supper sayian would be out of reach(unless he fused with kami). He was most likely just training to support goku. It is stated that Piccolo become just as strong as SSJ and that Piccolo can increase that much power by Krillin and Tien. If Piccolo wasn't stronger than a SSJ , they wouldn't even make a big deal about it. Nanho Jan 19 2013, 08:34 PM That statement only implies that his ''strengh'' was not far off from a supersayian. And I think its likely he was comparing him to any super saiyan in general.. Do you know what you're saying? Piccolo's power is stated to be enormous by Krillin , as he one-shots Dr.Gero post Absorbtions. Krillin states tha Piccolo is strong as the SSJ's , while being a namek. Edited by Alex D. Boss, Jan 19 2013, 09:08 PM.



Nanho	Jan 19 2013, 10:18 PM Post #38
Posts: 464 Group: Probation Member #8,818 Joined: January 6, 2013	^U need to reread my post and think harder, I wont waste time going to much into detail just for you. Also you need to look back on the fight with 18, she wasnt exactly toying with him. vegeta was clearly putting up a good fight, but as piccolo mentioned, ''she was slowly gaining the advantage''. Quote: Before, yes, but not way before. There's little difference between that one and the Trunks killing Freeza, if any at all. Isnt that like 2 years after? anyways he was near death, he may have got that saiyan boost (whats it called again?). Quote: Are you using the online fanslations? These come from a guy who translated the original Japanese manga, and there's little paraphrasing if any at all like fan translations or the Viz manga. It isn't perfect, of course, but it's accurate. Yeah its the online but its not that far off anyways and if theres some mistakes you guys could correct me right? I only brought it up though because that one part your quote felt a little bit out of place. But Nevertheless ''but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape'' is the same as Vegeta fighting 18 fairly well and barely managing to escape i.e still proves my point. Trunks didnt make any significant power increase when he came back. Quote: The reason Kami doesn't bring up Piccolo is most likely because Toriyama has already done so, but through another character - Piccolo himself (when Piccolo tells Krillin something along the lines of "don't sweat it, even Trunks got beaten easily"...'even' Trunks implying Trunks' superiority). I dont get what your trying to say here exactly? elaborate. Quote: Tien brings up Freeza because Freeza is still an impressive power to him, who is totally outclassed by Trunks, who is totally outclassed by the present androids. It illustrates the difference between Tien and the androids much better than it would if Tien had brought up Piccolo instead. Hmm, I didnt say anything about tien not mentioning Piccolo, so I dont see why your saying this.. Quote: Tien already implies that Trunks has gotten stronger by implying that Trunks and Vegeta are in a similar tier. Your looking too much into it here; Tien only brings them up simply because thier all super saiyans. Edited by Nanho, Jan 19 2013, 10:32 PM.



Alex D. Boss	Jan 19 2013, 10:37 PM Post #39
Posts: 8,688 Group: Probation Member #8,536 Joined: November 8, 2012 Gender Male Country Canada	18 didn't toy with Vegeta? Are you serious? Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P11.1 Context: after fighting Vegeta for awhile No.18: “I haven’t been giving it anywhere near my all either. Can you tell?” Do you see 18 not tying with Vegeta here? lol Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1 Context: after Vegeta continues to fight No.18 No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you.” 18 calls Vegeta trash , like he isn't a worth opponent. Can't take you seriously anymore Lmao. Edited by Alex D. Boss, Jan 19 2013, 10:37 PM.



+ Pyrus	Jan 19 2013, 10:47 PM Post #40
Posts: 39,342 Group: Legend Member #5,088 Joined: August 1, 2010 Gender Not Specified Country Chile	Is it really being argued that #18 didn't toy with Vegeta? It's outright stated she wasn't taking him seriously, and considered him "nothing special." Come on, now.
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~~GridZero~~	Jan 19 2013, 10:50 PM Post #41
Posts: 5,387 Group: Suspended Member #7,577 Joined: April 27, 2012 What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga Fullmetal Alchemist	18 did not toy with Vegeta? I did not think this was possible, but someone has finally surpassed Weskur levels of denial. At no point in that response did you make any sense, or back up your half assed claims with any semblance of evidence or proof. You pulled them out of the air, and do not have any real intent on learning new material. Log off now and be spared the humiliating defeat you are about to be handed.



+ Kyouks	Jan 19 2013, 10:52 PM Post #42
Posts: 10,305 Group: Elite Member Member #8,102 Joined: August 11, 2012 Gender Other Country South Africa Favourite Anime Hentai What Browser do you use? The best one Favourite Manga They all suck	The last parts of my post were written poorly because I wasn't sure why you were saying what you said either. 'Twas all irrelevant to me. 18 described Vegeta as being helpless against her. He only fights evenly for a while when she's not serious. Then, we see her taking a blow to the gut casually and emerging from a blast barely damaged. Quote: is the same as Vegeta fighting 18 fairly well It's funny because Trunks says his "even I could fight them fairly well" line in response to Vegeta getting beat by 18. Vegeta didn't fight 18 well at all. Tien says Goku isn't that different from either Vegeta or Trunks. I dunno how it doesn't get clearer than that. This debate should've ended right at the part where Trunks got owned by the androids before, but fought 'fairly well' against them afterwards, and this is only reinforced by Trunks being in a similar tier to Vegeta in power.



Zenet	Jan 19 2013, 11:35 PM Post #43
Posts: 2,755 Group: Member Member #8,544 Joined: November 11, 2012 Gender Not Specified	Nanho Jan 19 2013, 08:34 PM Tien doesnt state hes near. hes just simply pointing out that a super saiyan wouldnt be enough... Anyways, trunks only needed ONE hit from 17 while vegeta was giving 18 a somewhat good fight. And both 17 and 18 are twins, their difference in power would be marginal if any. I think C17 is noticeably stronger I would think 18 rivals imperfect cell. C17 mentions he is the strongest android at one point. Anyways this is what I think SSJ Gohan zenkai = Piccolo In my opinion.



Nanho	Jan 19 2013, 11:36 PM Post #44
Posts: 464 Group: Probation Member #8,818 Joined: January 6, 2013	Quote: Is it really being argued that #18 didn't toy with Vegeta? It's outright stated she wasn't taking him seriously, and considered him "nothing special." Come on, now. No what I said was she wasnt ''exactly'' toying with him ,meaning he wasnt completely weak against her, or she couldnt take him out without actually giving it a go. Alright, maybe that was poor choice of words, but thats what I meant. And I'll explain a little bit more: After both vegeta and 18 confess their restrain of power the other fighters come, 17 then looks to 16 and tells him if they interfere 18 wouldnt be able to handle them all, and feels he must step inm now if she was that stronger than vegeta as tienhman implied or if vegeta was complete trash to her why would 17 be concerned? Now after vegeta goes in and gives it his all, she tells him she never knew anyone was that strong? why would she be impressed at his strengh if it was far weaker than hers? Then after the fight continues trunks says how incredibly strong is father is and how evenly hes fight the andriod. Now trunks is not dumb, he maybe lacks fighting instinct, but he knows a even fight when he sees one. Now from a much wiser fighter Piccolo, says ''shes not loosing any power at all but vegeta gets tired as he continues to fight..look the cyborg is slowly getting the advantage''. Hes basically saying its close with the andriod having the advantage. Now considering everyting its safe to deduce that vegeta wasnt far off in power and put up a good fight but the andriods superior strengh and energy (unlimited power) was too much for him. understand? Edited by Nanho, Jan 19 2013, 11:37 PM.



~~GridZero~~	Jan 20 2013, 12:03 AM Post #45
Posts: 5,387 Group: Suspended Member #7,577 Joined: April 27, 2012 What Browser do you use? Chrome Favourite Manga Fullmetal Alchemist	Nanho Jan 19 2013, 11:36 PM Quote: Is it really being argued that #18 didn't toy with Vegeta? It's outright stated she wasn't taking him seriously, and considered him "nothing special." Come on, now. No what I said was she wasnt ''exactly'' toying with him ,meaning he wasnt completely weak against her, or she couldnt take him out without actually giving it a go. Alright, maybe that was poor choice of words, but thats what I meant. And I'll explain a little bit more: After both vegeta and 18 confess their restrain of power the other fighters come, 17 then looks to 16 and tells him if they interfere 18 wouldnt be able to handle them all, and feels he must step inm now if she was that stronger than vegeta as tienhman implied or if vegeta was complete trash to her why would 17 be concerned? Now after vegeta goes in and gives it his all, she tells him she never knew anyone was that strong? why would she be impressed at his strengh if it was far weaker than hers? Then after the fight continues trunks says how incredibly strong is father is and how evenly hes fight the andriod. Now trunks is not dumb, he maybe lacks fighting instinct, but he knows a even fight when he sees one. Now from a much wiser fighter Piccolo, says ''shes not loosing any power at all but vegeta gets tired as he continues to fight..look the cyborg is slowly getting the advantage''. Hes basically saying its close with the andriod having the advantage. Now considering everyting its safe to deduce that vegeta wasnt far off in power and put up a good fight but the andriods superior strengh and energy (unlimited power) was too much for him. understand? Chapter: 352 (DBZ 158), P11.1 Context: after fighting Vegeta for awhile No.18: “*I haven’t been giving it anywhere near my all either. Can you tell?” Chapter: 353 (DBZ 159), P10.2-4, P11.1 Context: after Vegeta continues to fight No.18 Vegeta: “This is really starting to annoy me. You act as if nothing’s happened…” No.18: “I’m surprised. To think that a flesh-and-blood human could be so good, even if you are an alien. Is this man called ‘Son Goku’ even stronger?” Vegeta: “Don’t kid yourself. He may have temporarily slipped by me, but now things have returned to normal and I should be on top again.” No.18: “What? So you’re nothing special. Either of you*.”



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